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So in the Taros Air War book, it seems the Imperium has successfully retaken Taros, though the Tau forces have retreated to the greater Ksi'm'yen sept for more reinforcements. However in typical GW fashion, GW has left it in the air now as to what happens next, whether the Tau can retake the planet again or whether the Imperium can successfully pacify and hold on to the planet.
Personally, I doubt the Imperium can hold the planet for several reasons. First, the timey wimey distortion of warp travel meant the Imperial force arrived years after it was meant to. Instead of assaulting Taros only a year after it had been lost, they assaulted a world that had been integrated with the Tau empire for many years. The human population was described as having formed a society loyal to the Tau after having seen drastically improved living standards compared to when they were under the Imperium, which was why they fought so hard against the Imperials (even using their own version of Thunderbolt fighters). The Imperial force has no immediate reinforcements as they were part of the Agrellan expedition force (which finished years ago). Thus the Imperial force is isolated effectively behind enemy lines, while the Tau have a shorter line to supplies and reinforcements.
The economic value of Taros itself to the Imperium may be diminished as the Tau have mined out the planet at a greater scale and pace than the Imperium ever did. There may be little to gain aside from ideological triumph. While that in itself may be of value to the Imperium, the Imperium has greater more urgent priorities in the Great Rift era than a mined out barely inhabitable desert. So I don't see requests for Imperial reinforcements getting much response. By contrast, the Tau are far more likely to commit more forces as it is a more integral part of the Ksi'm'yen sept, and the planet's mineral resources still represent a greater relative value to the Tau empire than to the Imperium.
That said, GW could for entirely RL reasons decide Taros is the new Nimbosa and have it seesaw between the sides.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/13 02:17:56
This is cool news. I've got my fingers crossed that 9th is going to give a lot of love to the Xenos; if 8th was a story of Imperium vs Chaos, could 9th be the story of the Xenos.
It isn't exactly clear yet- we'll have to see how it goes.
But the Aeronautica stuff really could work as a way to bring in a 40k Tau release in another few months- maybe the 4th quarter release.
I wasn't sure if this taros air campaign was about the old campaign or if it was a new one. Well, the Imperial Armour was really good so it's good news they didn't forget about this planet, and to see it retaken after all those years (IRL) is heartwarming !
So one of the few Xenos wins we got in the last few years once again turns into an imperial victory?
I’m really waiting for WarCom to do one of those community surveys again, so I can write a very worded essay on the narrative treatment of all non-imperium factions.
Segersgia wrote: So one of the few Xenos wins we got in the last few years once again turns into an imperial victory?
I’m really waiting for WarCom to do one of those community surveys again, so I can write a very worded essay on the narrative treatment of all non-imperium factions.
The Imperium is probably the biggest looser of all fiction fantasy. They loose almost all their battle against xenos, especially against Tau (too small to loose !). We probably haven't read the same fluff
Well the original Taros campaign was a complete cluster, with Dues Ex Machina aircraft to take out Titans and the Marines not being used as pin-point an assault force to take vital areas (like the water works!).
H.B.M.C. wrote: Well the original Taros campaign was a complete cluster, with Dues Ex Machina aircraft to take out Titans and the Marines not being used as pin-point an assault force to take vital areas (like the water works!).
Glad this book undoes that travesty.
You prefer the moar mecha approach?
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
I do prefer the aircraft approach myself but yeah, the marines were almost inexistent except at the very beginning and very end and there were some... storytelling (?) Issues
The key difference this time is the Imperium having more fleet assets than the Tau. The key reason why the Imperium lost the first time was because the ground forces ran out of water because the Tau destroyed the water transports in space when the heavier fleet units went chasing off after the Tau Custodian class carrier-battleship.
The Taros Campaign was mostly well-written but it had to take a few shortcut in order to reach a Tau victory such as the their ability to listen in on Imperial communications and their inexplicable air superiority, With the Imperium only having several dozen thunderbolt squadrons available for the campaign, and the fact that despite bombarding enemy airfields, the tau kept continously harassing the ground forces.
Caradman Sturnn wrote: The Taros Campaign was mostly well-written but it had to take a few shortcut in order to reach a Tau victory such as the their ability to listen in on Imperial communications and their inexplicable air superiority, With the Imperium only having several dozen thunderbolt squadrons available for the campaign, and the fact that despite bombarding enemy airfields, the tau kept continously harassing the ground forces.
From p. 79 of the first edition of the FW Taros book:
At the peak of its strength (the start of the campaign), Air Marshal Denvelt commanded 78 fighters, of which the vast majority were Thunderbolts, 28 Marauder bombers and 18 Valkyrie Transports (not including those of the 23rd Elysian Drop troop regiment). Since the campaign had started, he had received exactly zero replacements, despite repeated requests.
The squadrons started to feel the strain of prolonged combat. As well as aircraft and aircrew losses, the fuel situation was not good, and air dropped munitions were running low. Imperial airbases were mostly situated far to the rear, close to the original landing zone, where Departmento Munitorum Engineer and Labour corp had been instructed to construct them. As the front advanced, this left aircraft further and further behind, with longer missions times, and hence less time in the air over the battlefield. An original plan to move fighter bases forwards had been cancelled. SInce the Tau raid, it was considered too risky to expose grounded aircraft to roving Stealth teams...
The Bomber squadrons had hammered Tarokeen and the Iracunda Isthmus with repeated air raids, pounding the city and suspected Tau bases. It seemed to be having little effects on the Tau. Attempts to hit Tau Hunter Cadres in the deserts seemed to expend a disproportionate amount of munitions for slim results, and bomber losses to the ever-present Barracudas had been alarming: five in the first two days.
p. 79, 1st edition FW Imperial Armour Volume Three: The Taros Campaign
So we have a combination of factors explaining why the Imperium lost the air war the first time. The key factor as it was for all of the Imperial forces was this was a budget campaign, with limited resources. The caution exhibited in keeping bases far back meant limited mission time so limited time to dogfight or limitations in recon. The attempted strikes were to suspected (not confirmed) Tau bases, and given the lack of effect it seems the Imperium did not get their intel right.
A comparison of the two campaigns also shows that while both times the Imperium landed about 4 regiments, they didn't have enough landing craft to land more than 1 regiment at a time in the first campaign, while in the 2nd they had enough to land 4 regiments simultaneously in 4 different landing zones. The greater number of landing craft might have affected the willingness to drop in the face of enemy fire, compared to the more cautious deployment in the 1st campaign.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/14 12:44:06
Segersgia wrote: So one of the few Xenos wins we got in the last few years once again turns into an imperial victory?
I’m really waiting for WarCom to do one of those community surveys again, so I can write a very worded essay on the narrative treatment of all non-imperium factions.
The Imperium is probably the biggest looser of all fiction fantasy. They loose almost all their battle against xenos, especially against Tau (too small to loose !). We probably haven't read the same fluff
Apparently not. And I’m seriously trying to find some major Xenos victories. Looking up threads about Xenos battles always mentions that xenos don’t win most times, if any.
Psychic Awakening is the most recent example of this.
- Blood of the Phoenix: Eldar get stomped by one Keeper of Secret hologram.
- Blood of Baal: Nids get stomped on every planet by the Blood angels
- Greater Good: all Stalemates with a one minor victory for the genestealer cults
- War of the Beast: Orks get stomped by Space wolves, with the only victory to the Orks being the fact that they teleported away. Don’t forget the controversy involving Ghazghkull’s HEAD GETTING CHOPPED OF by Ragnar.
When looking up Major Xenos victories, the main contenders were Damnos and Taros. Damnos got retaken by the Imperium in 7th edition, and now Taros is retaken.
Segersgia wrote: So one of the few Xenos wins we got in the last few years once again turns into an imperial victory?
I’m really waiting for WarCom to do one of those community surveys again, so I can write a very worded essay on the narrative treatment of all non-imperium factions.
The Imperium is probably the biggest looser of all fiction fantasy. They loose almost all their battle against xenos, especially against Tau (too small to loose !). We probably haven't read the same fluff
Apparently not. And I’m seriously trying to find some major Xenos victories. Looking up threads about Xenos battles always mentions that xenos don’t win most times, if any.
Psychic Awakening is the most recent example of this.
- Blood of the Phoenix: Eldar get stomped by one Keeper of Secret hologram.
- Blood of Baal: Nids get stomped on every planet by the Blood angels
- Greater Good: all Stalemates with a one minor victory for the genestealer cults
- War of the Beast: Orks get stomped by Space wolves, with the only victory to the Orks being the fact that they teleported away. Don’t forget the controversy involving Ghazghkull’s HEAD GETTING CHOPPED OF by Ragnar.
When looking up Major Xenos victories, the main contenders were Damnos and Taros. Damnos got retaken by the Imperium in 7th edition, and now Taros is retaken.
You start seeing where my point lies?
Gryphonne IV against Tyranids. One of the most heavily fortified Imperial worlds in the southern galaxy with the Legio Gryphonicus Titan Legion dating back to the dawn of the Imperium falls swiftly to the Tyranids.
Orpheus sector against Necrons. The Orpheus sector gets gutted by the Necrons in 100 days. An Imperial campaign called the Orpheus Salvation campaign is launched but it fails since 7 years later, in 999.M41, the Orpheus sector is officially dissolved and the region re-classified again as wilderness space. In the Fall of Orpheus FW book, the reinforced Imperial sector fleet was shown to comprise 7 battleships (including 1 Retribution and 1 Apocalypse class), "more than 60" cruisers and capital ships, "several hundred" escort class vessels, 4 Space Marine battle barges, and 8 Space Marine strike cruisers. The BFG supplement Warp Storm gives the Battle of Callavell in the Age of Apostacy as one of the largest "set-piece" battles in Imperial history, In that, the Imperial force fielded 8 battleships, 5 grand cruisers, 6 battlecruisers, 5 heavy cruisers, 9 cruisers, and 6 light cruisers for a total of 37 capital ships. This means the Orpheus sector had a fleet battle that dwarfed one of the largest space battles in Imperial history. Though the breakdown of Imperial losses was never completely given, the narrative showed that Imperial losses as at least 2 battleships, 1 battlecruiser, 1 heavy cruiser, 2 battle barges, 3 strike cruisers. In the end, less than 10% of the Imperial fleet was still fit for combat. Little detail was shown of Necron losses with the only definite details being 1 destroyed harvest ship and damage to 1 Tombship. The other Tombship was shown to remain operational at the end. So the Imperial fleet was massacred.
When looking up Major Xenos victories, the main contenders were Damnos and Taros. Damnos got retaken by the Imperium in 7th edition, and now Taros is retaken.
You start seeing where my point lies?
Gryphonne IV against Tyranids. One of the most heavily fortified Imperial worlds in the southern galaxy with the Legio Gryphonicus Titan Legion dating back to the dawn of the Imperium falls swiftly to the Tyranids.
Orpheus sector against Necrons. The Orpheus sector gets gutted by the Necrons in 100 days. An Imperial campaign called the Orpheus Salvation campaign is launched but it fails since 7 years later, in 999.M41, the Orpheus sector is officially dissolved and the region re-classified again as wilderness space. In the Fall of Orpheus FW book, the reinforced Imperial sector fleet was shown to comprise 7 battleships (including 1 Retribution and 1 Apocalypse class), "more than 60" cruisers and capital ships, "several hundred" escort class vessels, 4 Space Marine battle barges, and 8 Space Marine strike cruisers. The BFG supplement Warp Storm gives the Battle of Callavell in the Age of Apostacy as one of the largest "set-piece" battles in Imperial history, In that, the Imperial force fielded 8 battleships, 5 grand cruisers, 6 battlecruisers, 5 heavy cruisers, 9 cruisers, and 6 light cruisers for a total of 37 capital ships. This means the Orpheus sector had a fleet battle that dwarfed one of the largest space battles in Imperial history. Though the breakdown of Imperial losses was never completely given, the narrative showed that Imperial losses as at least 2 battleships, 1 battlecruiser, 1 heavy cruiser, 2 battle barges, 3 strike cruisers. In the end, less than 10% of the Imperial fleet was still fit for combat. Little detail was shown of Necron losses with the only definite details being 1 destroyed harvest ship and damage to 1 Tombship. The other Tombship was shown to remain operational at the end. So the Imperial fleet was massacred.
Thank you
Though still, the amount of Xenos victories can be counted on one hand compared to all the victories the Imperium has, with most of them being space marine wins.
I’m hoping this will change with the new edition. We are getting the Silent King, and he might turn the tide in this.
But if he gets defeated, there will be outrage, I assure you.
It's important to note that whilst Tyranids tend to lose at the very end, they tend to obliterate everything on the way. They lose to the BA after driving them all the way back to their Chapter World. The Imperium wins in last-ditch situations after taking vast losses. Leaving behind a whole belt of world burned and scoured of any use. Knowing that the next time the Swarm approaching from that angle and penetrate far further as there are so few worlds left with any value for either side - no need to stop and feed just press on.
Segersgia wrote: So one of the few Xenos wins we got in the last few years once again turns into an imperial victory?
I’m really waiting for WarCom to do one of those community surveys again, so I can write a very worded essay on the narrative treatment of all non-imperium factions.
The Imperium is probably the biggest looser of all fiction fantasy. They loose almost all their battle against xenos, especially against Tau (too small to loose !). We probably haven't read the same fluff
Apparently not. And I’m seriously trying to find some major Xenos victories. Looking up threads about Xenos battles always mentions that xenos don’t win most times, if any.
Psychic Awakening is the most recent example of this.
- Blood of the Phoenix: Eldar get stomped by one Keeper of Secret hologram.
- Blood of Baal: Nids get stomped on every planet by the Blood angels
- Greater Good: all Stalemates with a one minor victory for the genestealer cults
- War of the Beast: Orks get stomped by Space wolves, with the only victory to the Orks being the fact that they teleported away. Don’t forget the controversy involving Ghazghkull’s HEAD GETTING CHOPPED OF by Ragnar.
When looking up Major Xenos victories, the main contenders were Damnos and Taros. Damnos got retaken by the Imperium in 7th edition, and now Taros is retaken.
You start seeing where my point lies?
It must be a FW thing then. They loose against the orks, Tau, necrons, tyranids... And "win" against Chaos. In 5 books.
Segersgia wrote: So one of the few Xenos wins we got in the last few years once again turns into an imperial victory?
I’m really waiting for WarCom to do one of those community surveys again, so I can write a very worded essay on the narrative treatment of all non-imperium factions.
The Imperium is probably the biggest looser of all fiction fantasy. They loose almost all their battle against xenos, especially against Tau (too small to loose !). We probably haven't read the same fluff
Apparently not. And I’m seriously trying to find some major Xenos victories. Looking up threads about Xenos battles always mentions that xenos don’t win most times, if any.
Psychic Awakening is the most recent example of this.
- Blood of the Phoenix: Eldar get stomped by one Keeper of Secret hologram.
- Blood of Baal: Nids get stomped on every planet by the Blood angels
- Greater Good: all Stalemates with a one minor victory for the genestealer cults
- War of the Beast: Orks get stomped by Space wolves, with the only victory to the Orks being the fact that they teleported away. Don’t forget the controversy involving Ghazghkull’s HEAD GETTING CHOPPED OF by Ragnar.
When looking up Major Xenos victories, the main contenders were Damnos and Taros. Damnos got retaken by the Imperium in 7th edition, and now Taros is retaken.
You start seeing where my point lies?
It must be a FW thing then. They loose against the orks, Tau, necrons, tyranids... And "win" against Chaos. In 5 books.
You could argue they lose against the Eldar in Mymeara as the war ends with Eldar vanishing after getting what they wanted and the only person who knew what that was being killed and posthumously being declared a traitor.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
PenitentJake wrote: This is cool news. I've got my fingers crossed that 9th is going to give a lot of love to the Xenos; if 8th was a story of Imperium vs Chaos, could 9th be the story of the Xenos.
It isn't exactly clear yet- we'll have to see how it goes.
But the Aeronautica stuff really could work as a way to bring in a 40k Tau release in another few months- maybe the 4th quarter release.
I wouldn't get my hopes up, GW said on stream that the setting and story of the game as a whole, 9th edition included, will still be squarely focused on the struggle between the Imperium and the forces of Chaos, the Necrons are simply taking increased prominence in the lore as they have a role to play in that conflict (as will other Xenos).
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
The role of most xenos actually would be anti-Chaos as they all have their own goals and don't want Chaos overwhelming the galaxy.
I'm guessing the Imperium discovers the Necrons' plan, feths it up, and Cawl starts his own version using captured blackstone, and the combination of the Necrons' and Cawl's blackstone projects effectively stalemates Chaos, explaining why the Great Rift doesn't become the "I win" button for all Chaos. The Eldar are probably dancing around playing the sides off each other, while hurting Chaos.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/15 21:34:14
Segersgia wrote: So one of the few Xenos wins we got in the last few years once again turns into an imperial victory?
I’m really waiting for WarCom to do one of those community surveys again, so I can write a very worded essay on the narrative treatment of all non-imperium factions.
The Imperium is probably the biggest looser of all fiction fantasy. They loose almost all their battle against xenos, especially against Tau (too small to loose !). We probably haven't read the same fluff
Apparently not. And I’m seriously trying to find some major Xenos victories. Looking up threads about Xenos battles always mentions that xenos don’t win most times, if any.
Psychic Awakening is the most recent example of this.
- Blood of the Phoenix: Eldar get stomped by one Keeper of Secret hologram.
- Blood of Baal: Nids get stomped on every planet by the Blood angels
- Greater Good: all Stalemates with a one minor victory for the genestealer cults
- War of the Beast: Orks get stomped by Space wolves, with the only victory to the Orks being the fact that they teleported away. Don’t forget the controversy involving Ghazghkull’s HEAD GETTING CHOPPED OF by Ragnar.
When looking up Major Xenos victories, the main contenders were Damnos and Taros. Damnos got retaken by the Imperium in 7th edition, and now Taros is retaken.
You start seeing where my point lies?
In general the Imperium gets too many victories over xenos, especially Eldar. Tau on the othet hand get too many against the Imperium. The Eldar and Tau should be in each other's places
123ply: Dataslate- 4/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/6+
Autopistol, Steel Extendo, Puma Hoodie
USRs: "Preferred Enemy: Xenos"
"Hatred: Xenos"
"Racist and Proud of it" - Gains fleshbane, rending, rage, counter-attack, and X2 strength and toughness when locked in combat with units not in the "Imperium of Man" faction.
Segersgia wrote: So one of the few Xenos wins we got in the last few years once again turns into an imperial victory?
I’m really waiting for WarCom to do one of those community surveys again, so I can write a very worded essay on the narrative treatment of all non-imperium factions.
The Imperium is probably the biggest looser of all fiction fantasy. They loose almost all their battle against xenos, especially against Tau (too small to loose !). We probably haven't read the same fluff
Apparently not. And I’m seriously trying to find some major Xenos victories. Looking up threads about Xenos battles always mentions that xenos don’t win most times, if any.
Psychic Awakening is the most recent example of this.
- Blood of the Phoenix: Eldar get stomped by one Keeper of Secret hologram.
- Blood of Baal: Nids get stomped on every planet by the Blood angels
- Greater Good: all Stalemates with a one minor victory for the genestealer cults
- War of the Beast: Orks get stomped by Space wolves, with the only victory to the Orks being the fact that they teleported away. Don’t forget the controversy involving Ghazghkull’s HEAD GETTING CHOPPED OF by Ragnar.
When looking up Major Xenos victories, the main contenders were Damnos and Taros. Damnos got retaken by the Imperium in 7th edition, and now Taros is retaken.
You start seeing where my point lies?
In general the Imperium gets too many victories over xenos, especially Eldar. Tau on the othet hand get too many against the Imperium. The Eldar and Tau should be in each other's places
except most eldar vs imperium conflicts are raids. as the eldar are, seldom, intreasted in holding territory. So you tend to see the dlar swooping in to achomplish a certain aim. then imperial reinforcements show up and the eldar flee.
well that or you have the most common story in 40k.
Imperial guy "hmm whats this? it looks important maybe I should touch it!"
Eldar "Don't touch that
Imperial ".. why not?"
Eldar "well I could tell you it'd release a colossal doomsday weapon that would kill us all, but instead I'll go for vague statements and implied eldar superiority reinforced with the fact that you should just trust me!"
Imperial ".......has that ever actually worked?"
Eldar: "...... well no. But you should just do as I say you stupid Mon-key"
Imperial ".. yeah well feth you, you're proably lying anyway I'm gonna touch it!"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
To be fair with how Xenophobic the Imperium is the Eldar likely is having fun because they know no matter what they say, the Imperial is still going to touch it!
Overread wrote: To be fair with how Xenophobic the Imperium is the Eldar likely is having fun because they know no matter what they say, the Imperial is still going to touch it!
proably, which is why the eldar need to get smart and utlize reverse psychology.
Imperium: "hmm I wonder what this this is, maybe I should touch it"
Eldar: "Hey Mon'keigh this is an awesome thing, you should totally touch it!"
Imperium: "YOU'RE CLEARLY TRYING TO TRICK ME ELDAR AND SWAY ME FROM MY PATH I'M NOT GONNA TOUCH IT!"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Overread wrote: To be fair with how Xenophobic the Imperium is the Eldar likely is having fun because they know no matter what they say, the Imperial is still going to touch it!
proably, which is why the eldar need to get smart and utlize reverse psychology.
Imperium: "hmm I wonder what this this is, maybe I should touch it"
Eldar: "Hey Mon'keigh this is an awesome thing, you should totally touch it!"
Imperium: "YOU'RE CLEARLY TRYING TO TRICK ME ELDAR AND SWAY ME FROM MY PATH I'M NOT GONNA TOUCH IT!"
Yeah, for an elder race they definitely don't know how to effectively manipulate people despite having farseering abilities. I'm pretty sure the majority of their prophecies end up backfiring on them more often than not.
Overread wrote: To be fair with how Xenophobic the Imperium is the Eldar likely is having fun because they know no matter what they say, the Imperial is still going to touch it!
proably, which is why the eldar need to get smart and utlize reverse psychology.
Imperium: "hmm I wonder what this this is, maybe I should touch it"
Eldar: "Hey Mon'keigh this is an awesome thing, you should totally touch it!"
Imperium: "YOU'RE CLEARLY TRYING TO TRICK ME ELDAR AND SWAY ME FROM MY PATH I'M NOT GONNA TOUCH IT!"
Yeah, for an elder race they definitely don't know how to effectively manipulate people despite having farseering abilities. I'm pretty sure the majority of their prophecies end up backfiring on them more often than not.
The way they're written indicates they don't actually understand how other races think at even a basic level. I mean to the point that "people who kill us are bad" escapes them.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
AM/IG - 122nd Terrax Guard: 2094/3000pts
Skitarii/Cult Mech: 1380/2000pts
Khorne Daemonkin - Host of the Nervous Knife: 1701/2000pts
Orks - Rampage Axez: 1753/2000pts 
