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I was looking at how Ork Tankbustas can take bomb squigs and it occurred to me that a cool idea for a unit would be a whole suicide unit of bomb squigs?

It also occurred to me that this concept would be a cool Tyranid unit styled after the Zerg unit from StarCraft. I haven't fleshed this out much, and I am unsure if it needs so much fleshing-out. Try something like, a unit of just bomb squigs that starts at 5 models and ops out at like 15?

Dude, points are difficult. It's been my experience that if you are starting with the points people are just going to nit-pic that aspect and kinda ignore your other work.

That being said: this example seems even HARDER to cost correctly! This is a unit that will either do:

1) nothing (gets blown up by ranged fire before it gets a chance)

2) Potentially a lot (blows up where it wants and causes real damage)

The problem here is that you have to have a point cost that reflects the total ability to just do nothing, as well as the ability to potentially change the game in a dramatic way.

I mean, sure, all units have this... but I guess this particular unit idea seems even harder to point cost correctly.

All that being said, if you are going to make the proposed rule with points involved I think a safe bit of critique around here is always to up the points more than you initially think and lower the power of the unit more than you initially think.

Good luck mate!

How many points for a suicide unit?

4 havocs with chaincannons + aspiring champion with bolter = 150 points.

So tyranids actually have a suicide unit in the form of spore mines. Spore mines are pretty cheap but also very limited. They can't really blow up the turn they deepstrike in, and they're too slow to cross the table without deepstriking. They're extremely easy to kill. Their self-destruction usually only does 1 mortal wound, and sometimes it doesn't do any mortal wounds at all.

So with that in mind, I'd start with spore mines as a template and eyeball the points based on how your unit varies from the spores. Some things to keep in mind:

*How early can your unit get in explosion range? Spore mines can't normally get there earlier than turn 3 (I think you can do some stratagem shenanigans to maybe pull it off on turn 2 with some luck).

* How durable is the unit? Spores are Toughness 2 with a 7+ save. So if bolters aren't wounding you on 2+, you're increasing their durability by a fair bit.

* How does the explosion activate, and how damaging is it? Assuming that a third or a half of the suicide unit got in position to explode, how would that damage compare to a similar number (and number of points) of spore mines?

This depends on a few things for me

1) How easily can that unit do its job? How easy can it get there and deal its damage?
2) How important is that role of that unit to my army? DO i need it as a 1 off unit, or do i need it over multiple turns?
3) Can i use the unit to help me win even if it doesn't do anything but get in the way?

I always have throw away units, but thats not the same as a suicide unit. For me in DE Scourges are Suicide but I'd rather take Mandrakse as they do basically the same thing but has a much better chance to survive so Scourges are to costly for that role (98pts) when a cheaper units can do it too (75pts).

Cyclops Demolition Vehicles are like 50 points each.

It would depend heaviy on how the unit worked.

If it was a deepstriking unit which I could control completely and dealt damage to all units within 3" at the end of any phase, then I would expect it to be expensive as it would almost always hold utility (deepstrike, charge, explode). But not too expensive, as it would have to be worth buying as a distraction.

Something which starts in my deployment zone and has to make it across the board, or which deepstrikes then floats around at random (like spore mines used to, don't know what they do now), then I would expect to pay less for it.

Also depends if it's pure suicide (like bomm squigs, discard to fire) or a unit which explodes when it dies. Bomm squig mobs would be cool if they exploded when they died, but could just attack as a squig. if a mek can see the unit, they can remotely detonate the bomms (hoose to explde), if not then they just blow up as and when they die. That would be an interesting unit!

 some bloke wrote:
It would depend heaviy on how the unit worked.

If it was a deepstriking unit which I could control completely and dealt damage to all units within 3" at the end of any phase, then I would expect it to be expensive as it would almost always hold utility (deepstrike, charge, explode). But not too expensive, as it would have to be worth buying as a distraction.

Something which starts in my deployment zone and has to make it across the board, or which deepstrikes then floats around at random (like spore mines used to, don't know what they do now), then I would expect to pay less for it.

Currently, spore mines deepstrike and explode on everything within X" (3"?), but they have to deepstrike more than 12" away. It's one of the few cases where deepstrike isn't just the standard 9" away, and it keeps the spores from charging out of deepstrike and being a non-interactive source of mortal wounds. Which I think is neat design. I don't think spores are particularly good right now, but their design is interesting.

Tyranids have like... 4 suicide units in the form of various kinds of spores.

That said Tyranid Spore Mines often don't have to be paid for.

You can choose to buy them and deploy them, but they are also fired (for free) out of units as well. So they can be deployed to the table without any cost and right into the thick of battle and even at a long distance. This creates a unit with a profile and a cost with two distinct deployment methods which might make its point cost rather variable in terms of how tight it needs to be for balance, because its also given for free with the right situation as well.






As for point cost the base-line definition for most people of a "good unit" is one that kills equal or greater than its own point cost in most games. Therefore the point cost of a suicide unit is, in part, also going to be based on the average point cost of what it can take out.

Since in theory no one will take a 200 point ork-bomb suicide unit if its bomb blast is so weak it can rarely take out more than 50points worth of opposing units.
At the same time if it can regularly have potential to take out 400 point or greater units then suddenly it might appear too good a unit.


That said it also depends somewhat on how reliable the unit is. Old versions of Spore mines had them drift with limited user control; back then paying for them had the issue that not only were they vulnerable to being taken out, but they also couldn't be perfectly controlled to guarantee that they'd end up where you'd need them.
Again what the unit needs is a degree of reliability relative to its point's value. The more points the more reliable it should be; the fewer and the more of a gamble you can make things whilst having it being cheap enough to be practical to consider.

Gamers are unlikely to sink a lot of points into something that is very unreliable or unlikely to work. It just becomes too great a gamble to be worth choosing.




Of course all those are very generalist terms and concepts that give a base-line. From there one would have to do proper tests and games to really start to find a sweet spot in balance.

This is silly, I play gaurd, all my troops are suicide units, as are all my unshielded tanks.
a typical 5 man scion squad with 2 plasma rifle and 1 plasma pistol is about 67 points, though.

Wyldhunt wrote:
So tyranids actually have a suicide unit in the form of spore mines. Spore mines are pretty cheap but also very limited. They can't really blow up the turn they deepstrike in, and they're too slow to cross the table without deepstriking. They're extremely easy to kill. Their self-destruction usually only does 1 mortal wound, and sometimes it doesn't do any mortal wounds at all.

So with that in mind, I'd start with spore mines as a template and eyeball the points based on how your unit varies from the spores. Some things to keep in mind:

*How early can your unit get in explosion range? Spore mines can't normally get there earlier than turn 3 (I think you can do some stratagem shenanigans to maybe pull it off on turn 2 with some luck).

* How durable is the unit? Spores are Toughness 2 with a 7+ save. So if bolters aren't wounding you on 2+, you're increasing their durability by a fair bit.

* How does the explosion activate, and how damaging is it? Assuming that a third or a half of the suicide unit got in position to explode, how would that damage compare to a similar number (and number of points) of spore mines?

Just a slight correction on spores: they are Toughness 1

Also I have the feeling I'm missing a FAQ or something here, but if not, with some CP you can have them blow up on turn 1 if you want (if you get first turn, that is). Use the Sporefield stratagem (3 CP) so you can have up to 2 units at 12" of an enemy unit before the game start. First turn you can move + advance, then use Metabolic Overdrive for an extra move (1 CP) and/or the Swarmlord ability for the extra move, and you are now within 3" in the charge phase for you to blow up.

That said, it's extremely expensive for comparatively little damage. At best you could take out a dread, or heavily damage a tank/vehicule. But 4 CP + 90pts (max of nine spore mines per unit) is a lot of resources.

Also to add info for OP if he want a gauge for points:

- Spore Mines are T1, 1W, 7+ save, and do 1 MW on 2+ (on a 6 it's D3) for 10pts. Max unit of 9.
- Meiotic Spores (FW unit) are T2, 2W, 7+ save, and do D3 MW on 2+ (on a 6 it's D6) for 18pts. Max unit of 9. They also have the ability to deploy after deployment but before turn 1, more than 12" away from enemies, so if I'm not missing anything they can use the turn 1 combo for less CP.
- Mucolid Spores are T3, 3W, 6+ save and do D3 MW on 2+ (on a 6 it's D6) for 20pts. Max unit of 3.

BA players pay 200+ all the time. I think it's a mistake, but it's working right now.

@Skywave:

Good catch. T1 indeed. My bad. I've only fielded my 'nids a few times this edition, and the last time was over a year ago. XD

And you're quite right about using Metabolic Overdrive to get spores into 'splosion range faster.

 Skywave wrote:

- Meiotic Spores (FW unit) are T2, 2W, 7+ save, and do D3 MW on 2+ (on a 6 it's D6) for 18pts. Max unit of 9. They also have the ability to deploy after deployment but before turn 1, more than 12" away from enemies, so if I'm not missing anything they can use the turn 1 combo for less CP.

A slight correction to this. As they changed this ability in a FAQ to work quite differently.
Meiotic Spores now deploy in the same manner as space marine scouts. Being set up during deployment rather than after, and 9" from the enemy deployment zone and enemy models, rather than 12" from enemy models.
This makes it even easier to get them in explody range on turn 1. But at the cost of your opponent possibly knowing where they are before deploying their units, depending on what style of deployment you're using.

Thanks for the info! I had this feeling that something had been done to one or more of the spores things, couldn't find it after a minimal research when posting!

You know I was thinking that the Imperium of Man wouldn't have a unit like this, but then I though about Servitors and Arcoflagellants and they could actually be fitting in to that scheme well. Of course, that's if you don't consider things like Conscript Squads Suicide units.

By the same token, Chaos has the Cultists and units like Nurglings (I suppose).

Tau would have Drones doing the job, but then I guess Seeker Missiles fit in to that category, mostly.

The closest the Eldar currently have is the Avatar of Khaine, for all intents and purposes (in lore the Avatar is summoned by one of the Aspect leaders sacrificing themselves to summon it).

Necrons one might include the Scarabs, but they really aren't sent in expected to die very often.

 Charistoph wrote:

The closest the Eldar currently have is the Avatar of Khaine, for all intents and purposes (in lore the Avatar is summoned by one of the Aspect leaders sacrificing themselves to summon it).

I could be wrong, but I kind of thought the planet killer weapon the eldar used in Valedor killed at least one of the psykers that activated it. When eldar sacrifice a life, they go big. XD

There's also the phoenix gem relic which works as a sort of... reverse suicide vest. Where when you die, it kills a bunch of people near you to bring you back.

Edit: Oh, and the Traitor's Embrace relic the Cursed Blade have access to where upon death your skeleton erupts into a forest of bone spikes to impale your killer. XD

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

The closest the Eldar currently have is the Avatar of Khaine, for all intents and purposes (in lore the Avatar is summoned by one of the Aspect leaders sacrificing themselves to summon it).

I could be wrong, but I kind of thought the planet killer weapon the eldar used in Valedor killed at least one of the psykers that activated it. When eldar sacrifice a life, they go big. XD

There's also the phoenix gem relic which works as a sort of... reverse suicide vest. Where when you die, it kills a bunch of people near you to bring you back.

Edit: Oh, and the Traitor's Embrace relic the Cursed Blade have access to where upon death your skeleton erupts into a forest of bone spikes to impale your killer. XD

Tau had an Battlesuit upgrade that was similar, too, back in 4th edition, the Failsafe Detonator. When the unit was forced to retreat, this model stayed and blocked the pursuit, then a Large Blast was placed over character and everyone under it took a Str 8 hit and prevented Consolidation. Didn't force a Morale Check if it did enough damage, oddly enough.