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And no there are no 1++ saves

 Daedalus81 wrote:
And no there are no 1++ saves

There are no 1+ saves for units with the Storm Shield in the Indomitus box.

Still looking at three Devastator Squads loaded up with Plasma Cannons and Grav-Cannons. The changes to Blast just amped my normal builds, because a guaranteed maximum plasma shots against any unit more than five models is brutal.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Still looking at three Devastator Squads loaded up with Plasma Cannons and Grav-Cannons. The changes to Blast just amped my normal builds, because a guaranteed maximum plasma shots against any unit more than five models is brutal.

How often do you expect to see those, though, with the rules for Blast weapons existing?

Would need to look at the points costs etc, but hell blasters with the heavy Incinerator version... That's going to hurt against large elite units.

Dark Angels versions with weapons of the dark age as well.

Probably awful points wise though...

Kinda want to do something with White Scars becoming an advance and Assault weapon focused foot chapter.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Still looking at three Devastator Squads loaded up with Plasma Cannons and Grav-Cannons. The changes to Blast just amped my normal builds, because a guaranteed maximum plasma shots against any unit more than five models is brutal.

How often do you expect to see those, though, with the rules for Blast weapons existing?

More than you'd expect I'll wager.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Still looking at three Devastator Squads loaded up with Plasma Cannons and Grav-Cannons. The changes to Blast just amped my normal builds, because a guaranteed maximum plasma shots against any unit more than five models is brutal.

How often do you expect to see those, though, with the rules for Blast weapons existing?

A lot of units are still min-10. Necron Warriors, Genestealers, SOBs I think.

There's also a new balance around character targeting to think of. Nearby units only protect a Character from being shot at if they are three models or more. If a character is only surrounded by a couple five-man units, it's going to be much easier to knock a few models off each unit and then blast the character. Imo targeting choices got a lot more interesting.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Still looking at three Devastator Squads loaded up with Plasma Cannons and Grav-Cannons. The changes to Blast just amped my normal builds, because a guaranteed maximum plasma shots against any unit more than five models is brutal.

How often do you expect to see those, though, with the rules for Blast weapons existing?

A lot of units are still min-10. Necron Warriors, Genestealers, SOBs I think.

There's also a new balance around character targeting to think of. Nearby units only protect a Character from being shot at if they are three models or more. If a character is only surrounded by a couple five-man units, it's going to be much easier to knock a few models off each unit and then blast the character. Imo targeting choices got a lot more interesting.

Or they can stand within 3 inches of a cmvehical or monster and give 0 cares.
Also killing 3 Gravis marines or those bladeguard I suspect will prove to be some challenge.

Though snipers still get to ignore this rule so eliminators for days as no-ones taking redundant HQ choices now that costs CP.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Still looking at three Devastator Squads loaded up with Plasma Cannons and Grav-Cannons. The changes to Blast just amped my normal builds, because a guaranteed maximum plasma shots against any unit more than five models is brutal.

How often do you expect to see those, though, with the rules for Blast weapons existing?

Not much more
More than you'd expect I'll wager.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Still looking at three Devastator Squads loaded up with Plasma Cannons and Grav-Cannons. The changes to Blast just amped my normal builds, because a guaranteed maximum plasma shots against any unit more than five models is brutal.

How often do you expect to see those, though, with the rules for Blast weapons existing?

A lot of units are still min-10. Necron Warriors, Genestealers, SOBs I think.

There's also a new balance around character targeting to think of. Nearby units only protect a Character from being shot at if they are three models or more. If a character is only surrounded by a couple five-man units, it's going to be much easier to knock a few models off each unit and then blast the character. Imo targeting choices got a lot more interesting.

Nope of SoB, min 5 and you'll probably never see a tenner again

ERJAK wrote:

Nope of SoB, min 5 and you'll probably never see a tenner again

Are they going to run into slot contention?

Ice_can wrote:

Or they can stand within 3 inches of a cmvehical or monster and give 0 cares.

It's a factor, but then so is my AT fire. I'm wagering there are either going to be opportunities presented on the table, or an opponent will be less aggressive about movement because they're paranoid about assassination attempts.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Or they can stand within 3 inches of a cmvehical or monster and give 0 cares.

It's a factor, but then so is my AT fire. I'm wagering there are either going to be opportunities presented on the table, or an opponent will be less aggressive about movement because they're paranoid about assassination attempts.

If people are taking more vehicle/monsters/dreads then AIRCRAFT will be able to sneak in between and snipe as well.

ERJAK wrote:
Nope of SoB, min 5 and you'll probably never see a tenner again

Running only MSUs is going to hurt Stratagem deployment, so I remain unconvinced.

 Insectum7 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Nope of SoB, min 5 and you'll probably never see a tenner again

Running only MSUs is going to hurt Stratagem deployment, so I remain unconvinced.

I don't think people will never run anything but MSUs.

I do think people will run horde light infantry extremely extremely rarely. the opportunity cost for stuff like bloodletter bombs and ork da jump mobs is huge now.

What you will see, I'd wager, is people running max sized elite units and single superheavies for stratagem efficiency. It's still more efficient to run your strats on your 400+ point unit, but it's a liability to make that 400+ point unit light infantry rather than something like a 10-squad of 40-point models or a single SH.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Nope of SoB, min 5 and you'll probably never see a tenner again

Running only MSUs is going to hurt Stratagem deployment, so I remain unconvinced.

I don't think people will never run anything but MSUs.

I do think people will run horde light infantry extremely extremely rarely. the opportunity cost for stuff like bloodletter bombs and ork da jump mobs is huge now.

What you will see, I'd wager, is people running max sized elite units and single superheavies for stratagem efficiency. It's still more efficient to run your strats on your 400+ point unit, but it's a liability to make that 400+ point unit light infantry rather than something like a 10-squad of 40-point models or a single SH.

Possibly. Playing Tyranids too I'm looking at Termagants costing 5 points and being fearless, as well as being large in number for the sake of contesting objectives. I'm also thinking obscuring terrain can be helpful for hiding squads against big blast weapons (as well as tunneling and just coming up a little later.) My Tyranid Warriors will probably convert to 5-model units though.

I have a dream of constantly replenishing Termagants on objectives using hidden Tervigons. We'll see.

I think, for initial deployments, MSU's will be the way to go. If your army has a Deep Strike deployment unit, or a way to drop in range early for a powerful alpha strike (on a cheaper, yet expendable) unit, then full size can be used.

For instance, I would use Iotan Dragons with full squads to take advantage of a Deep Strike Rapid Fire drop, but my basic starting deployment would be MSU Lambdan Lions or Thetoid Eagles.

 Insectum7 wrote:


A lot of units are still min-10. Necron Warriors, Genestealers, SOBs I think.

There's also a new balance around character targeting to think of. Nearby units only protect a Character from being shot at if they are three models or more. If a character is only surrounded by a couple five-man units, it's going to be much easier to knock a few models off each unit and then blast the character. Imo targeting choices got a lot more interesting.

Genestealers come in units of 5 as well.

They may not see much use now, Rippers will likely take over as basic troops for most Tyranid detachments....

 Carnikang wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


A lot of units are still min-10. Necron Warriors, Genestealers, SOBs I think.

There's also a new balance around character targeting to think of. Nearby units only protect a Character from being shot at if they are three models or more. If a character is only surrounded by a couple five-man units, it's going to be much easier to knock a few models off each unit and then blast the character. Imo targeting choices got a lot more interesting.

Genestealers come in units of 5 as well.

They may not see much use now, Rippers will likely take over as basic troops for most Tyranid detachments....

Huh, min 5 for stealers look at that.

I suspect you'll still see squads of 20 of them. They get their bonus attack at 10+, and they're still gonna be great units for assaulting stuff off objectives. Big squads will still be viable because of their movement capabilities. You don't want to spend your Swarmlords ability and Kraken Stratagem pushing a 5-stealer unit forward 20+ inches.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Still looking at three Devastator Squads loaded up with Plasma Cannons and Grav-Cannons. The changes to Blast just amped my normal builds, because a guaranteed maximum plasma shots against any unit more than five models is brutal.

How often do you expect to see those, though, with the rules for Blast weapons existing?

A lot of units are still min-10. Necron Warriors, Genestealers, SOBs I think.

There's also a new balance around character targeting to think of. Nearby units only protect a Character from being shot at if they are three models or more. If a character is only surrounded by a couple five-man units, it's going to be much easier to knock a few models off each unit and then blast the character. Imo targeting choices got a lot more interesting.

SoB are min 5. Sisters are functionally identical to marines in almost every way.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

SoB are min 5. Sisters are functionally identical to marines in almost every way.

Yeah my memory is bad. For some reason I thought they were 10-20.

S3T3, no Combat Squadding, no Plasma, Las, Grav, etc. . . though.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


A lot of units are still min-10. Necron Warriors, Genestealers, SOBs I think.

There's also a new balance around character targeting to think of. Nearby units only protect a Character from being shot at if they are three models or more. If a character is only surrounded by a couple five-man units, it's going to be much easier to knock a few models off each unit and then blast the character. Imo targeting choices got a lot more interesting.

Genestealers come in units of 5 as well.

They may not see much use now, Rippers will likely take over as basic troops for most Tyranid detachments....

Huh, min 5 for stealers look at that.

I suspect you'll still see squads of 20 of them. They get their bonus attack at 10+, and they're still gonna be great units for assaulting stuff off objectives. Big squads will still be viable because of their movement capabilities. You don't want to spend your Swarmlords ability and Kraken Stratagem pushing a 5-stealer unit forward 20+ inches.

Maybe, but you're probably only taking one blob now, and honestly, a lot of the points changes for nids make me want to lead towards a gun line heavy army with either ravenors/gargolyes as fast moving infantry.

They'll still have a place, for sure, but I dont think we're going to see as many. I really wish they made warriors a little better. Just a smidge.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Yeah my memory is bad. For some reason I thought they were 10-20.

Once upon a time Sisters were 10-20. That's probably what you were remembering.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Yeah my memory is bad. For some reason I thought they were 10-20.

Once upon a time Sisters were 10-20. That's probably what you were remembering.

Ah HAH! So I have a great memory with just decades out of date information.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

SoB are min 5. Sisters are functionally identical to marines in almost every way.

Yeah my memory is bad. For some reason I thought they were 10-20.

S3T3, no Combat Squadding, no Plasma, Las, Grav, etc. . . though.

This isn't really an important argument to have, but SoB are more "space marine" in the ways that matter than either Grey Knights or Deathwatch which actually have the ASTARTES keyword, so like, they're more "space mariney" than some Space Marines.



Back to matters of greater importance, there will definitely be 10-man units and 11+ man units to shoot at.
Guardsmen, Termagaunts, Hormagaunts, Boyz, Warriors etc. all come in minimum-size 10-model units, and some ot them really want to be big units and will just take their lumps from blast weapons.

My Space Marine-Space Wolves list going forward is currently some Grey Hunters, some Infiltrators, Eliminators, Suppressors, Long Fangs, Predators, and a selection of characters. Maybe some Wolf Guard Terminators, since they look pretty nice going forward, and when I get my Intercessors done, them replacing some of the Grey Hunters. I would like to include Vindicators and Whirlwinds, particularly replacing the Eliminators since they've never performed for me, but I don't own the tanks right now to do so and there's other stuff on the docket first. I might just go out and buy a Vindicator to get it in service quickly, though.
Where exactly I go is dependent on how easy it winds up being dependent on the Assault Intercessors kit [how difficult it is to make them regular intercessors given that I have extra ABR's] and the options they end up getting. If Assault Intercessor Sergeants can take Intercessor Sergeant options, then I'll be a happy space wolf and make 2 squads with chainswords and thunder hammers. If they can't, and the kit is easy to work with, I'll make one squad of assault intercessors if I need them and one with spare ABR's and a Thunder Hammer. And if it's really just too hard to do, I'll make all 10 with chainswords and buy me a second box of Intercessors.

SOBs use the holy Bolter, mix weapons in their squads and ride in Rhinos, so they got that goin for them.

With TFC and Whirlwind being harshly costed, which blast weapons are we talking about here?

Let's say I bring my 30 Hormagaunt squad, what exactly would be my problem? I'm looking for low S low damage blast weapons, because if you really shoot hormagaunts with a battle cannon or a plasma cannon, I'm an happy bug.

Death guard nade spam is going to be one.

The grenade launchers on aggressors also count, but your blob is in double tap range of aggressors, you have bigger issues.

The IG is probably the only faction that can seriously pose a problem. Nades, wyverns and mortars.

I think that we are under the assumption that blast weapons are everywhere and hordes will be destroyed left and right, but the amount of anti horde blast weapons in the game is extremely low.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the blast rule is more of a nerf toward the MEQ and PEQ statlines than to light infantries.

Spoletta wrote:
With TFC and Whirlwind being harshly costed, which blast weapons are we talking about here?

Let's say I bring my 30 Hormagaunt squad, what exactly would be my problem? I'm looking for low S low damage blast weapons, because if you really shoot hormagaunts with a battle cannon or a plasma cannon, I'm an happy bug.

Death guard nade spam is going to be one.

The grenade launchers on aggressors also count, but your blob is in double tap range of aggressors, you have bigger issues.

The IG is probably the only faction that can seriously pose a problem. Nades, wyverns and mortars.

I think that we are under the assumption that blast weapons are everywhere and hordes will be destroyed left and right, but the amount of anti horde blast weapons in the game is extremely low.

Frag missiles maybe? The Missile Launcher still doesn't cover my anti-heavy requirements for me to take many of them though. Possibly on Scouts. Frag grenades will be fun, but getting to throw a bunch of them is not going to happen very often.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

SoB are min 5. Sisters are functionally identical to marines in almost every way.

Yeah my memory is bad. For some reason I thought they were 10-20.

S3T3, no Combat Squadding, no Plasma, Las, Grav, etc. . . though.

Actually they can take plasma pistols and combi-plasmas (and plasma guns on some non-Sister models of the army) and can out-plasma SM with a bit of effort

Do we have the pts for the new drop fortress taht can shoot all nearby units.....cram them in with the Eradicator cheese and press the I win button....

Some will still call it skill.