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Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




Sweden



Cheers!

   
Made in us
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps




So, huzzah evil and down with star wars? That's not the summary I was expecting from 'inspiration and historical reference'


Perhaps list some of the inspirations and do more with history than 'atrocities are fun if you don't take them seriously.'

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/23 00:39:18


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Phoenix, AZ

@Voss
Personally, I enjoy the dark and cruel aesthetic of 40K.
I've always been a fan of villains and I am of the minority population who cheer for the bad guy, whether in fiction or real-life media.
OJ Simpson, Charles Manson, the Unabomber - they all have a fan club..
I think many of us who indulge in the 40K universe have an appreciation for things of a cynical nature.
Basically formatted, anybody who indulges must have some mindless appreciation for war at the very least.

With that being said I don't entirely agree with the narrative of the OP.
I've never seen the Emperor as a tyrant or mass-murderer.
The Imperium is not without its flaws, and clearly there are questionable ethics performed under the cloak of righteous intent to push the agenda of mankind onward.
But evil? I don't think thats a fair label for the Imperium.

 
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




Sweden

@Voss: I tried to keep it limited in length, as an introduction to outsiders and as a slam-down against people branding 40k as something nefarious rather than innocent fun.

This is not a down with Star Wars post, but using the more well-known Star Wars to show where 40k go a lot further with nuances. I very much like Star Wars, and there are a lot of similarities between SW and 40k. At the end of the day, much of what I like with SW is done better in 40k.

I could go on for many hours about the historical basis for 40k, but that would not be conducive to keeping the length down. I am sure that you as someone in the know is well aware of it. As an example:

The setting reminds a lot about late antique Rome. Check off swollen bureaucracy, Imperial tyranny, decaying empire, increasingly many enemies pressing in on all sides, complete with legionary reorganization. It also draws heavily upon the Middle Ages and Early Modern centuries, as well as many of the worst aspects of the 19-20th centuries, not least the two World Wars.

I can go on for way too long, but at the end of the day 40k draws heavily upon human history, in a way which makes it a lot more enjoyable than most other settings out there. Of course, it also draws heavily upon some good aspects of other settings, which only adds to the quality experience. 40k is rarely original, but mostly of good quality.

@Frag the Commissar: As to evil: The road to hell is paved with good intentions. "We shall measure thee on thy deeds." I love how 40k is built ambiguous, so that it invites discussion and different interpretations.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/07/23 01:37:41


   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




Sweden

Addendum:



Cheers!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/23 21:19:33


   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




People consider that the empire is evil ?

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

Karol wrote:
People consider that the empire is evil ?


Read some Necromunda stories.
Thr Imperium is neither good nor evil as a whole, but it cares little to nothing for the individual. In addition it has a huge amount of social enequality. From upperclasses who live a life of pure luxury and can live for many hundreds of years. Down to thd masses of serfs who toil in the filth of industry and who might never see the light of day and are lucky if they make it to 30.

Chaos and Genestealer cults have no trouble recruiting from the downtrodden who have no hope of a better life

   
Made in de
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin




Karol wrote:
People consider that the empire is evil ?


Are there people who consider the Imperium to be good? If there are they never read the rulebook...

It won't be long before people come here with their dnd classifications of lawful evil and that stuff, but I won't go into it.
The Imperium is a hellhole and the reason why Chaos has so many followers. Chaos is also the reason why every Progress or Revolution towards a better society in 40K will fail. That's a nice dialectic I like about 40K. Though many people seem to read the Imperium as "it has to be like that, if the Imperium was a nice democracy like we have Chaos would destroy it", which I find worrysome as it legitimizes the fascism of the Imperium. And historically it's also wrong, fascism failed and was brought down by democracies.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Speak after me:

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Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Overread wrote:
Karol wrote:
People consider that the empire is evil ?


Read some Necromunda stories.
Thr Imperium is neither good nor evil as a whole, but it cares little to nothing for the individual. In addition it has a huge amount of social enequality. From upperclasses who live a life of pure luxury and can live for many hundreds of years. Down to thd masses of serfs who toil in the filth of industry and who might never see the light of day and are lucky if they make it to 30.

Chaos and Genestealer cults have no trouble recruiting from the downtrodden who have no hope of a better life


Yes, another words it is a normal life, only instead of living in a house that has 11 floors, the house has 333+1 floors. I only read one necromunda story, called lasgun wedding, and I haven't seen anything evil as far as empire goes. Maybe it is in other books, it is hard to be sure after one book about anything.

Are there people who consider the Imperium to be good? If there are they never read the rulebook.

Now I don't own the core rule book, but I did read it, and I own my codex. I also read a few books, I read nothing that would point out that the empire being evil. Seems like a normal country we have now, only it is much bigger and in state of war.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in fi
Regular Dakkanaut





I see IoM as evil too. But that's a big reason why I love 40K - NONE of the factions are "good", they are all evil, nobody is innocent. The cynic/nihilist in me likes this, but I'd never want to live in such a world IRL.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/24 14:14:34


 
   
Made in ie
Fresh-Faced New User




Ireland

Wasn’t the tag line in 2nd ed “in the nightmare future of the far future, there is only war”? The Imperium is a feudal, fascist dystopian hell and I struggle to think how you could read anything from any of the books and not come to that conclusion.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran






Can't tell what's going on in that initial image as it's just a wall of tiny text, but yeah, if your takeaway from 40K is "the Imperium are the good guys!" you're doing a spectacular job of not paying attention and missing the point. The opening text of every 40K rulebook since Rogue Trader make it pretty clear what the deal is.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





 Frag The Commissar wrote:
.
But evil? I don't think thats a fair label for the Imperium.


Um. Nope, the imperium taken as a whole is absolutely evil regardless of the metric you measure them by.
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought




Nottingham

 Nazrak wrote:
Can't tell what's going on in that initial image as it's just a wall of tiny text, but yeah, if your takeaway from 40K is "the Imperium are the good guys!" you're doing a spectacular job of not paying attention and missing the point. The opening text of every 40K rulebook since Rogue Trader make it pretty clear what the deal is.
Yeah, the Imperium is genuinely awful.

Genocides (not just of aliens, but of their own people), religious intolerance, horrific living conditions for so much of the populace, suppression of information and communication, complete unwavering theocratic dictatorship: the only "good" thing I can identify about the Imperium's social/welfare policy is that they seem to be utterly uncaring of race/gender - which is of little consequence when the balance of wealth and power is so obscenely skewed. Are there good, well-meaning people within the Imperium? Once you get past the whole "kill the aliens!" part, perhaps, sure, but the empire itself? Evil, unquestionably.

The Imperium is not good or acceptable. They are the prime example of what *not* to be.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/24 15:16:11


Read the history of the Charadon Crusade: The Crusade of Fury was at an end.
Join the Crion Crusade: I think it's the combination of butt jokes, democratic necrons, explosions, and mind-fething that draws people to this Crusade like moths to a bug zapper - War Kitten
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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





Not Online!!! wrote:
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Yes, absolutely, satire.

The satirical humor in the 40k setting is the portrayal of the imperium as a heroic entity while it does absolutely everything the worst monsters of current human history do magnified by a scale of millions.

Its made clear time and time and time again that a huge reason for the dire situation humanity is in is because of the total inability of the various "good" or even "self serving" factions to ever work together to fight the various existential threats like the orks tyranids and chaos.
   
Made in gb
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller





Watch Fortress Excalibris

To misquote Churchill, the Imperium is definitely the most evil faction apart from all the others.

I no longer play 40K.

I still love the lore and the models, but a game that's only fun when everyone agrees not to seriously try to win is a bad game. 
   
Made in de
Hellacious Havoc




Forsaken wastes of Brandenburg

8th ed rulebook, literally the very first thing written there wrote:
For more than a hundred centuries the Emperor of Mankind has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the master of mankind by the will of the gods and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Age of Technology. He is the Carrion Lord of the Imperium, for whom a thousand souls die every day, for whom blood is drunk and flesh is eaten. Human blood and human flesh – the stuff of which the Imperium is made. To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable.


@Karol I mean no offense, but... are you a troll?

DR:70+S+G++MB-IPw40k94#-D++A++/cWD143R++T(D)DM+
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Bharring wrote:
At worst, you'll spend all your time and money on a hobby you don't enjoy, hate everything you're doing, and drive no value out of what should be the best times of your life.
 
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







If you're talking about historical inspiration for 40k a lot of the basics in the old days were dressed-up sci-fi WWI/WWII. This is a setting populated by tracked tanks, dumb-fire missiles, shell-firing artillery, lightly-armoured APCs, relentless large-scale land warfare, peaked caps, greatcoats, gas attacks, and loads of skull/eagle iconography. Communication and coordination are tricky, plans may be ruined by the lack of timely support from other branches of your military, and people go on and on about how great the Commandos (Space Marines) are ignoring the fact that they need backup from the regular army to actually hold ground. If you're looking there are a lot of visual references (Land Raider = WWI heavy tanks, Leman Russ = Sherman, Thunderbolt = P47, that kind of thing).

It's been diluted a lot since with the slow loss of historically-inspired game mechanics (random reserves, barrages, pinning, vehicle facings, etc.) and the introduction of things like guided missiles you'd expect from a sci-fi setting but don't fit in with the historical theme, but I do think it's telling that the first thing that Alessio Cavatore and Rick Priestly did after leaving GW was go make a 28mm WWII wargame.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using. 
   
Made in us
VF-1S Valkyrie Squadron Commander





Mississippi

 AnomanderRake wrote:
If you're talking about historical inspiration for 40k a lot of the basics in the old days were dressed-up sci-fi WWI/WWII. This is a setting populated by tracked tanks, dumb-fire missiles, shell-firing artillery, lightly-armoured APCs, relentless large-scale land warfare, peaked caps, greatcoats, gas attacks, and loads of skull/eagle iconography. Communication and coordination are tricky, plans may be ruined by the lack of timely support from other branches of your military, and people go on and on about how great the Commandos (Space Marines) are ignoring the fact that they need backup from the regular army to actually hold ground. If you're looking there are a lot of visual references (Land Raider = WWI heavy tanks, Leman Russ = Sherman, Thunderbolt = P47, that kind of thing).

It's been diluted a lot since with the slow loss of historically-inspired game mechanics (random reserves, barrages, pinning, vehicle facings, etc.) and the introduction of things like guided missiles you'd expect from a sci-fi setting but don't fit in with the historical theme, but I do think it's telling that the first thing that Alessio Cavatore and Rick Priestly did after leaving GW was go make a 28mm WWII wargame.


As I recall, the 3E rules were a last-minute rewrite of Priestly's personal WW2 set, wasn't it?

It never ends well 
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







 Stormonu wrote:
...As I recall, the 3E rules were a last-minute rewrite of Priestly's personal WW2 set, wasn't it?


I don't know specifically but I would be completely unsurprised.

...I kind of want a version of 40k built for Bolt Action activations now.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using. 
   
Made in us
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy






As for the pop influence Dune, Foundation and 2000AD, sure, but the crazy and cynical 80' (and around) as a whole : Moorcock, Alien, Terminator, DnD, (cyber)punks, Thatcher(ism), heavy metal, etc...

 AnomanderRake wrote:

...I kind of want a version of 40k built for Bolt Action activations now.


Maybe have a look at Bolter Action ? Nothing official and never tried it, but seems it could do the job.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





The Imperium is definitely evil, that's the whole point of the setting. The Imperium is rotten to the core, corrupt and uncaring. Its an exaggeration of the worst aspects of humanity and the worst aspects of various regimes throughout human history, right up to the present day.

The in universe perspective is that not all the individuals are bad/evil but the society is and anyone trying to improve the situation are ultimately fighting an unwinnable battle, which is what makes it GrimDark.

The only thing the imperium has in its favour is that if you're human it is better than the alternative (Chaos/enslavement by xenos, painful death by xenos etc).

The Imperium is horrific, evil, degarded and corrupt - It is a society that willingly sacrifices 1000 souls to feed the carrion-lord on the golden throne every single day. Anyone not following the mandated religion can be summarily executed. Its elite fighting force is abducted children that are subjected to horrendous body-horror physical modifications and indoctrinated into becoming soldiers with a failure rate of the transformation process will in excess of 50%. It is ruled by bickering houses in a Feudal system designed to perpetuate their own power and the Main imperial military force, the imperial guard is made of levies and conscripts where the value of a soldiers life is many times less than the value of their equipment, and whose primary purpose is to die by the tens of thousands. It is expendable cannon fodder orders of magnitude greater than any loss of life in all the wars of mankind throughout our entire history. This is the status quo and any attempt to make things better is ultimately futile.

All of this and more, and yet it is still better than the alternative.

   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut






 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Stormonu wrote:
...As I recall, the 3E rules were a last-minute rewrite of Priestly's personal WW2 set, wasn't it?


I don't know specifically but I would be completely unsurprised.

...I kind of want a version of 40k built for Bolt Action activations now.


Been there, done that. It's trivially easy to play 40k with BA activation style: just count the number of units on each side, throw colour coded dice or tokens into a bag and fiddle a bit with psychic powers only lasting until the end of the round instead of specific phases next turn, decide if units strike in melee every time they are drawn into combat or only once per round etc. and off you go. For each token of your colour drawn in succession, you can make a mini-turn with all phases included with a selected unit (though I prefer drawing tokens until the colour changes and then making one mini-turn with all the selected units at once, so you can still coordinate assaults and such). If you like, you could add an extra activation for Characters so they could order units around them on their turn.

Works like a charm, much fun has been had.

Heavily converted tall scaled 30k / 40k loyalist Death Guard blog here, C&C welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/717557.page
Now with titans! Legio Favilla walks! 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





the_scotsman wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Speak after me:

S
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Yes, absolutely, satire.

The satirical humor in the 40k setting is the portrayal of the imperium as a heroic entity while it does absolutely everything the worst monsters of current human history do magnified by a scale of millions.

Its made clear time and time and time again that a huge reason for the dire situation humanity is in is because of the total inability of the various "good" or even "self serving" factions to ever work together to fight the various existential threats like the orks tyranids and chaos.


actually that is just the meta satire, there is also alot of singleline satire:
Take Ghazkull aka Thatcher marget in ork form.

Heck the entire orkline was once brown, and have you seen some glyphs.

Tau, with a caste system of ultra advancement but at the same time extremely restrictive policy?


   
Made in at
'Jack Scrapper





Austria

 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Stormonu wrote:
...As I recall, the 3E rules were a last-minute rewrite of Priestly's personal WW2 set, wasn't it?


I don't know specifically but I would be completely unsurprised.

...I kind of want a version of 40k built for Bolt Action activations now.


3rd was based on a WW2 set, and the actual SciFi rules written for 40k meant for 4th became Starship Troopers later

yet Bolt Action itself is based on 40k with re-worked moral (aka pinning mechanic) so it is not really a problem to use the BA activations 1:1 for 40k (done that, works fine) and stay ~1000 points

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
 
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