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 XeonDragon wrote:
If the Raven Guard rule is RAW.... -1 to hit against infantry unless within 12"? That would be... WOW. A -1 to hit and +1 to save would really go with their 'fluff' of being (at least a substantial proportion of the time) a chapter that operates sniper-style, and likes to sit back and whittle down the enemy before going in for the kill.

Still... WOW.

This is unchanged from 8th edition--Raven Guard already had a rule that made infantry -1 to be hit outside of 12". The thing is that everybody always played RG successors for the +3" range, so nobody ever used it. A couple of times in games with my first founding RG I had to bring out the codex to show my opponent the rule.

In gameplay it's no great shakes. Getting hit 16% less often doesn't deter anybody from shooting at you anyway and doesn't significantly increase survivability, and RG mostly want to be pretty close anyway. If there are devastators or scouts in the backfield causing problems, most opponents have something to send in close and get them. Also in 8th when thunderfires were king, they would still hit on a 3+, which was enough to wipe out a unit of scouts with one shot most of the time.

In 9th it may be even less of an advantage when the to-hit mods are capped at -1, so the doctrine won't even come into play if there's any other modifiers.

Cpt. Icanus wrote:
A -1 to hit isn't 16.7% of incoming fire. Depending on BS of the attacker it's 25% (3+) or 33% (4+) etc. But rerolls or boni to hit remedy that effect. Statistically a -1 to hit is huge, guess it rarely feels so in game. I played Alaitoc Eldar a lot and it never felt strong, though statistically it should have. Expert Crafters on the other hand always feels impactful. Guess it's the same with marines.

Not sure about your math here, Icanus. I don't think BS matters.

A BS 3 model has a base 66.6% (4/6) chance of hitting. -1 to hit makes that 50% to hit, or minus approx 16.7%
A BS 4 model has a base 50% (3/6) chance of hitting. -1 to hit makes that 33.3% to hit, or minus approx 16.7%
A BS 5 model has base 33.3% (2/6) chance of hitting. -1 to hit makes that 16.6% to hit, or minus approx 16.7%

If you're looking at the percent chance overall to score a wound, then the hit roll has a magnified effect on that because it's the first roll in the sequence. +1 or -1 modifiers on a d6 go in 1/6 increments (aka 16.7%).

Everybody on this argument please go Google "percent change vs. percent difference." Mathematicians already figured out how this works hundreds of years ago.

Having started this whole thing, and after reviewing the quantitative science formulas, I'm persuaded that I was looking at the modifier as a percent/relative change when actually it's a percent/relative difference. Ballistic skill does matter.

So I have about 50 jump pack guys for my Raven Guard army. 30 of them are assault squads with bp&chainsword and 2 flamers in each unit.

When I'm looking at point costs , though, I can see that vanguard vets are only 1 point more than assault marines. I would lose the flamers, but each bp&cs guy would get an extra attack, and I can just make up a couple of extra guys to replace the flamers, even give the new guys vanguard weapon options, lightning claws or whatever. 30 guys with 2 attacks base plus chainsword plus shock attack makes up for losing some flamers, right?

Plus battalion has more elite slots than fast (I'm making a skyhammer army with speeders, jump packs and aircraft), so vanguards don't use up my speeder slots.

I keep hearing people who are keen on the assault sergeant's combat shield, but a vanguard sergeant can take a *storm* shield for 1 point less, and has access to all the same melee weapon options plus relic blade, and the melee weapons are mostly 1-2 points cheaper than an assault sergeants.

Am I missing something here? Are vanguards the bargain that they look like? Is there any reason to take assault marines over vanguard vets right now?

bmsattler wrote:
I think that Vanguard Veterans were a better deal in 8th edition than Assault Marines, and I think they are even better in 9th edition.

I believe you can also give individual Vanguard Veterans two hand flamers each. Something I'm considering especially for Salamanders who could use a little mobility.

Hand flamers would be a compromise worth trying, I think. But unfortunately they're limited to Deathwatch and Blood Angels only.

 Crimson wrote:
So how are people feeling about the chapter master upgrade? It is rather pricy, but assuming one would want to use it what sort of captains are the best candidates for it? The relic would be pretty nice if comboed with gravis for T6 and 2+ save or with the Primaris captain with a shield for effective 1+ save and T5.

I think 8th edition supplement chapter masters with names, (eg. Shrike and Kantor) are still costed at their original 8th edition points right now, but they have the 9th edition chapter master abilities in the FAQs. So they are kind of a bargain right now compared to scratchmade chapter masters.

 Da-Rock wrote:
Looking for advice on using the following White Scars setup for some fun:

Land Raider Crusader
x5 Assault Centurions
Apothecary

Use a combo of Stratagems to either set it up for a middle burst if going first or Outflanking it......then using Wind Rider to double move and Lightening Disembarkation to have 5 pop out to shoot x4 Hurricane Bolters + a MC Hurricane bolter on the Sergeant to hopefully annihilate a squad etc.

Is it just too much? I know the table setup and the army I face will dictate almost everything.

It seems like 9th is more favorable to cheaper, smaller units with efficient firepower. And because of eradicators, I theorize (I haven't had a chance to try it out yet because of the pandemic) that multi-wound marine models without an invul with struggle to survive.

If the land raider doesn't get blown up turn 1, this deathstar will definitely kill the crap out of something. But then when everything is in the open, the eradicators will come out from the board edges on turn 2. Try some test rolls with what a couple of units of eradicators will do to 5 centurions and a land raider.

Okay, so laying aside the eradicator argument (and armies that aren’t space marines won’t have eradicators anyway), maybe a more 9th edition question would be how many victory points can your deathstar score?

How many objectives can it hold? Depending on your chapter, you might be able to make the centurions obsec with strats, but one Eldar guardian or ork boy standing next to the land raider, and not doing anything, will prevent it from scoring an objective on its own.

If it’s in reserve, the deathstar can definitely roll onto the table and take whatever objective it can reach, but how many turns will it have to wait off the table and miss out on scoring points until then? Can the rest of your army survive and hold objectives without the deathstar for 1-3 turns, and will there be enough left of your army when the deathstar arrives to continue to hold 2-3 objectives for the rest of the game?

I don’t know if it would be possible because I can’t play the game currently. But if I were playing a xeno army, especially a fast one like Eldar, my temptation would be to let the deathstar hold an objective, feed it sacrificial MSUs, and then focus my attention on all the rest of the army (and the other objectives on the table). Maybe somebody who’s actually gotten to play the game can weigh in on how deathstars work in 9th.

Kebabcito wrote:
Want to try this as white scar

- Chaplain bike full cheated, 3x3 outriders flanking the enemies

- Captainwith 5 bladeguards, ancient, apothecary and judicar front line

- Lieutenant with 5 assault intercessors and 3 aggressors looking for objective

- 2x5 assault intercessors into some objectives too

- 2x3 erradicators trying to deal with tanks

- eliminators deployment zone objectives

what do you think? I'm going white scars

Against hordes I've got a lot of choppy guys and 3 aggresors. Against MEQ I'm white scars, I can crush marines at turn 3. Against R8 I'll suffer, but erradicatrs are still not nerfed...

This is the standard White Scars list that is popular right now, except most people do intercessors in the backfield because they're more durable than eliminators.

If you want to go full on netlist, you should replace your lieutenant with a Reiver Lieutenant with the Vox Espiritum and Rites of War warlord trait, and then add a chief apothecary.

Opponents who have faced your list before will know that, if they don't have the firepower to crack the central block of troops and characters (and most armies don't, especially if you use the apothecary), then they should focus on taking out your bikes, eradicators, and rear-area objective holders so that the giant troop/character block is limited to really only holding one objective at a time.


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Also remember that in order to benefit from Look Out, Sir, the chaplain has to be within 3” of a unit of 3 models. If the only things near him are minsize outrider units, then your opponent can blow away a few outriders, then target the chaplain.

Neophyte2012 wrote:
Hi guys, wanna ask if anyone have thought of how to deal with Harlequins? Looks like these clowns are among the deadliest opponent to Space Marines.

Nick Nanavati Harlequins vs. John Lennon White Scars

https://youtu.be/zQpi-jYCtBE (I would post the Twitch link, but I'm old and I don't understand Twitch.)

3 hours well spent to watch the whole thing.

The takeaway is that Space Marines deal with Harlequins by castling up in the middle of the board, using overlapping auras (especially the chief apothecary) to minimize the effects of their shooting, and the threat of countercharge to hold the clowns back.

Notice that all the Harlequin advantages you listed are defenses against shooting. So the way to beat them is not to stand back and try to shoot, but force them into melee with your strong melee units.

The Harlequins seem scary, but they still need to crack into your brick to score victory points. They can't do enough shooting to move you from the table center, and if they assault directly, they tend to bounce, which allows you to step up your bully units and kill them.

Just watch out for the strat that allows them to fall back onto objectives when you charge them. ((1)You charge them at the end of your turn, (2) they immediately fall back onto an objective without fighting you, (3) they immediately score primaries at the top of their turn for the objective they fell back onto and (4) the charging unit is pulled away from your brick/auras and is now vulnerable to being wiped out piecemeal. The harlequin player would like to rinse and repeat this tactic as much as possible). As demonstrated in the battle, it's often better to let the harlequins charge you.

Also notice that, while the Space Marine army in the batrep is White Scars, he never really needs to use the +1 damage trait. Any Space Marine army can duplicate this strategy.

Arcanis161 wrote:


So, named characters before any of the Captain choices? What if you're doing a successor (i.e. no special characters)?

On the same topic, I'm seeing lots of discussion in this thread over the Chapter Tactics of the "main" chapters, but nothing regarding the successor tactics. Do people actually take successor tactics or do they just take Dark Angels, Space Wolves, White Scars, etc?

I saw a list with a lot of thunderhammers/powerfists where the player took Heroes of the Chapter to offset the -1 to hit with those weapons.

A similar list paired White Scars successor with Whirlwind of Rage because every extra D2 hit you can get is helpful.

IMO it's nice to see the successor tactics being more varied and balanced, instead of everybody just taking stealth and extra range. But also from what I've seen so far, people are taking successor tactics to support melee-oriented armies. Or maybe it's just that marines are having a phase where melee is strong and shooting is weaker.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What do people take on Redemptor Dreads?

I have 3 (one of them the EZBuild one) and I'm not sure what weapons to use.

I know I want one double Onslaught 'cause it's funny, but other than that... am I being irrationally afraid of plasma weaponry overcharges?

Redemptor plasma is popular right now for two reasons.

One, it's in a sweet spot for damaging DE raiders. It wounds them on 3s, and throwing out average 3-4 shots at 3 damage each is better math against the 5+ invul than weapons that do more damage, but can be stopped by a single successful invul.

Two, it's in a sweet spot for damaging big blobs of AdMech infantry, getting the benefits of blast, and also having the AP to bust through their armor, especially if you also have a way to negate the cover.


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 RaptorusRex wrote:
Are Reivers any good in the backfield bully role?

An equivalent points value of bikes or outriders is probably better.

3 bikes compared with 5 reivers gets you better toughness, much faster movement, way more firepower, and decent melee even with just chainswords.

I've tried both, and reivers just don't have any punch, but 3 bikes can take or contest a lightly-held objective, score engage on all fronts or behind enemy lines , and last for more than one turn even if they need to go into the open.

One possible exception is a unit of 5 Deathwatch reivers who are a combat squad from a spectrus kill team, because they get obsec. So they could theoretically use the terror troops strat to take any objective they can reach, without having to actually fight anything. They die the following turn, but if you just need to deprive an opponent of an objective for one player turn, or if you're going second and it's turn 5.

But it's a challenge to set up, because you have to use Terror Troops during your command phase, which means the reivers need to be on the table at the start of your turn, and within movement range of the objective you want to take. I've never managed to get it to work personally.

A reiver lieutenant can do the objective-stealing thing too, and costs less, and is more survivable.


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
On the subject of Phobos, I made a really silly Phobos list the other day, just trying to use nothing but Phobos units:

Spoiler:

1x Phobos Chapter Master
1x Phobos Chief Librarian
1x Phobos Lieutenant

10x Incursors
10x Incursors
5x Infiltrators
5x Infiltrators
5x Infiltrators
5x Infiltrators

1x Invictor
1x Invictor

1x Eliminators
1x Eliminators
1x Eliminators (Las Fusils)

1850 Points

I doubt it would be any good, but it'd be fun to try.

The most frustrating thing about the list is that everything has Concealed Positions except the Lieutenant.

I've been playing around with the idea of a Deathwatch phobos army. I think if you really want to go all phobos and be effective, then Deathwatch deserves a look.

A spectrus kill team is 5 infiltrators + some combination of up to 5 reivers, eliminators, and/or incursors.

The whole unit gets obsec, so you can make a combat squad of 5 obsec reivers for theoretically stealing objectives (see above), or 5 obsec eliminators for camping objectives. (I can't think of any reason to use incursors in such an army.)

You can use the Vanguard warlord powers for redeployment to move units around, and can get insane movement out of a unit by using shoot & fade to move twice a turn.

You can jigger your points/wargear around to make 3 of your spectrus teams your most expensive units, then choose the "To the Last" secondary and use guerilla tactics strat to hide select parts of each unit in strategic reserve. Because units that enter strategic reserve after the start of turn 1 don't have to come back until turn 5, you can keep at least half a unit safe (for 3 VPs per unit guaranteed) and bring them back turn 5 to score the points.

The only DW limitation is that if you mix concealed positions models in the same combat squad with reivers, then that squad doesn't get concealed positions, so reivers have to go on their own.

A phobos librarian has special tech available to try to score those sweet 15 vps for Pierce the Veil. Deploy him as close as possible to the enemy table edge, then use move & Temporal Corridor to get into position turn 1 to start peircing for turns 2-4. Giving him the vanguard trait Stealth Adept can help to keep him from being targeted. You still need the right setup--a slow-moving enemy and a map where the enemy table edge extends further than the enemy deployment zone (get your librarian to the far corner, preferably behind obscuring terrain), but he can always try for another warp ritual if the mission isn't right. Goonhammer stats show that Pierce the Veil is one of the least-chosen secondaries, but actually has quite a high average score because of how it gets you either 8 or 15 if it gets you anything at all.

But a phobos army would be a non-engagement army, because you don't have anything that can really kill or shift enemy units. It would be an army that focuses on maxing secondaries (engage on all fronts or behind enemy lines, retrieve octarius data are all good secondaries), temporarily stealing objectives here and there, and denying engagement in order to try to win the points game.