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I read that autocannons fire huge slugs rapidly, rather than miniature warhead tipped projectiles (and the tech for that was lost the typical way STC’s are lost). I get that a machine gun making a weird baby with an anti material rifle is reliable mechanically speaking, but anti-tank rifles haven’t seen use since WWII for a reason... how the heck did the 41st millennium make something that obsolete and ineffectual into something used for Hunting heavy infantry and light armor? In a world with plasma, melta, missiles, heavy bolters, etc, the “ideal” targets for an auto cannon have so many more efficient methods of destroying. “Keep shooting it with 2.00 cal slugs until it stops moving” doesn’t strike me as a good way to stop a tank...
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut
macluvin wrote: anti-tank rifles haven’t seen use since WWII for a reason... how the heck did the 41st millennium make something that obsolete and ineffectual into something used for Hunting heavy infantry and light armor?
The same way that they've made a WW1 tank design work (leman russ is NOT a modern nor good tank design)
and WW1 cavalry (rough riders)
and close combat in general
The Imperium and the whole world setting is a bit insane. Furthermore the Imperium has basically got WWI style battle tactics and technology bolted onto a futuristic setting which results in very odd situations and doctrines that don't make sense coupled to technology that is at the same time both superior to what we have today and more primitive. Don't forget this is the Imperium where if you modify your rifle to have a better scope your commissar might well shoot you for it; a passing ad-mech might well shoot you for it and a passing Inquisitor might either shoot you or conscript you to their service (which based on the survival rates of Inquisitor support staff might well be a death sentence anyway).
Flame throwers also don't get much use these days, but they are in WH40K.
That being said the Autocannon is, IMHO the WH40K version of a Gau-8 from an A-10. True the Assault cannon is more in line with it, but the 30mm shoots solid slugs, not shells. And it can kill tanks.
There's also something to be said for having a weapon that won't melt your faceoff if it Kabooms, had quintuple the range of a Melta, has more kinetic energy than a HB, and I have no excuse for the missile :p maybe it's quicker to Mk1 Eyeball your target and fire a burst than launch a missile?
One would assume autoguns allow you more accurate control over the damage area, a missal explodes, whilst an autogun at least lets you fire into a tighter area (like indoors) without hurting yourself etc...
There's also the issue of ammunition, both in terms of transport and production.
An auto cannon is not like a normal heavy machine gun....for that you want to look at a heavy stubber. If you think of a modern day 50 cal machine gun...an auto cannon is more like 150 cal.
Although the Autocannon is quite common, its popularity is rather inconsistent. Many Imperial commanders shun use of the Autocannon, maintaining that it serves no role fully. It lacks the firing rate of a Heavy Bolter or Multi-Laser, meaning that its anti-infantry role is limited. It also lacks the sheer armour-piercing strength of a Krak Missile or Lascannon, and thus cannot be deployed to destroy enemy armour.
However, although many disapprove of the Autocannon, there are just as many who hail it as a tactically vital weapon. Its supporters argue that its versatility is its best attribute; that it can in fact be useful against both infantry and armour. Although it cannot tear through ranks of infantry like an Assault Cannon can, or bring down enemy armour to the extent of a Lascannon, it can still support an army in any tactical situation.
However, it is against the Tyranids that the Autocannon finds its true calling. The ability to deliver large volumes of heavy firepower is vital in combating massive Tyranid bioforms such as Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes, which lack the natural armour that requires the penetrating power of a Lascannon, but are too tough to be threatened by a Heavy Bolter.
Personally i like the Auto cannon but i think the Heavy Bolter is junk
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/30 22:44:17
I understand crappy ww1 tanks. The rule of cool and also, it’s really hard to measure the efficacy of tanks if you are the only humans using them. Also, putting a big gun on a moving chassis powered by an engine will produce results, no matter how crappy the design is. I also pulled the 2.00 cal out of nowhere I just know they are giant slugs. The rediculous setting makes sense enough to me, however. As for flamers, they are illegal to use in war, and not much use anywhere else. Besides, the excuse that modifying tech is heresy kind of went out the window with Cawl anyways... and the imperium really does not care about safety when operating its weapons.
As for auto guns, I am talking about an auto cannon, which if you are trying to shoot it in a hallway... anyways, rediculous setting will have to suffice XD I guess if you shoot a tank enough times with an anti material rifle it’ll eventually stop working.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut
Autocannons in Warhammer: 40,000 seem more akin to medium calibre cannons with moderate rates of fire... The easiest comparison seems to be the USN 3"/70 Mark 23-26 cannon.
Now think of the Leman Russ Exterminator, and how similar it looks to this...
Despite what the more (relatively) recent books say, there is no F#$%ing way that the Battle Cannon is 120mm - the barrel muzzle is bigger than a Guardsman's head, which I highly doubt is less than 5 inches across... I'd be more inclined to believe 203mm to 305mm...
An Earthshaker Cannon seems to be akin to the 2B1 Oka, a Soviet monster 420mm SPG... The Basilisk even looks similar...
I will not rest until the Tabletop Imperial Guard has been reduced to complete mediocrity. This is completely reflected in the lore.
That's how I have always described an autocannon, as well. Or like the autocannons on a ship:
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
The rounds on a navy ship autocannon are packed with explosives. Which makes a lot more sense than metal slugs. It would also explain how they can outpace a missile launcher for wrecking vehicles. Someone made a very solid point that a fully automatic elephant gun would make an excellent tyranid big game hunting weapon though. I do appreciate the feedback. Y’all are awesome!
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut
I once saw german Marder tanks in action and thought, oh, so these are Autocannons... Don't want to be on the other side.
They're simple, sure, but since we now have lots of heavy stubbers on the newest Imperial vehicles, that are even more primitive, Autocannons are okay. And look ace twin linked on a Chaos Terminator.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: I once saw german Marder tanks in action and thought, oh, so these are Autocannons... Don't want to be on the other side.
They're simple, sure, but since we now have lots of heavy stubbers on the newest Imperial vehicles, that are even more primitive, Autocannons are okay. And look ace twin linked on a Chaos Terminator.
Agreed agreed agreed. I love the aesthetic of autocannons. I guess in a chaos army they are more likely to experiment with packing some explosives inside those giant bullets. Maybe that’s the REAL reason chaos uses them so much even then it would be fairly primitive I suppose. Whatever the case, the autocannon is a semi-unique thing to chaos that I always loved.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut
Autocannon Variants are indeed a guilty pleasure of most Chaos marines Players.
Heck, between the hades AC (incindiary AC gatling) , reaper autocannon, hellstorm autocannon (aerial and groundstrike option), butcher cannon , Chaos has probably the most autocannon Variants .
Truth be told though, it's a shame they are so often restricted to specific vehicles ... Like why would csm not replace the predators one with hades autocannons?
Also on a aside , can we talk about why there is no hwacha Style arty inferno Rocket launcher?
And also why is there not a autocannon field arty piece for chaos?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/02 21:32:19
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Not Online!!! wrote: Autocannon Variants are indeed a guilty pleasure of most Chaos marines Players.
Heck, between the hades AC (incindiary AC gatling) , reaper autocannon, hellstorm autocannon (aerial and groundstrike option), butcher cannon , Chaos has probably the most autocannon Variants .
Truth be told though, it's a shame they are so often restricted to specific vehicles ... Like why would csm not replace the predators one with hades autocannons?
Also on a aside , can we talk about why there is no hwacha Style arty inferno Rocket launcher?
And also why is there not a autocannon field arty piece for chaos?
Blame GWs rules writing for that. I think Forgeworld was a bit more forgiving and allowed weapon options without models. And I think there was the option in 7th edition to put a Hades on a Rapier Chassis, no? I might be misremembering, though. I'm still worried what will be left of our FW options now that GW took over.
Chaos weapons options overall are a mess due to being very restrictive. If you ask me I should be allowed to use entropy cannons instead of lasercannons on every DG vehicle, Ectoplasma cannons on all Chaos dreads, bale flamers or Plague spewers instead of heavy flamers and so on. But I'm moving towards offtopic fast with these
Not Online!!! wrote: Autocannon Variants are indeed a guilty pleasure of most Chaos marines Players.
Heck, between the hades AC (incindiary AC gatling) , reaper autocannon, hellstorm autocannon (aerial and groundstrike option), butcher cannon , Chaos has probably the most autocannon Variants .
Truth be told though, it's a shame they are so often restricted to specific vehicles ... Like why would csm not replace the predators one with hades autocannons?
Also on a aside , can we talk about why there is no hwacha Style arty inferno Rocket launcher?
And also why is there not a autocannon field arty piece for chaos?
Blame GWs rules writing for that. I think Forgeworld was a bit more forgiving and allowed weapon options without models. And I think there was the option in 7th edition to put a Hades on a Rapier Chassis, no? I might be misremembering, though. I'm still worried what will be left of our FW options now that GW took over.
Chaos weapons options overall are a mess due to being very restrictive. If you ask me I should be allowed to use entropy cannons instead of lasercannons on every DG vehicle, Ectoplasma cannons on all Chaos dreads, bale flamers or Plague spewers instead of heavy flamers and so on. But I'm moving towards offtopic fast with these
Salviates at the thought of a twin hades AC turret for predators and 2 side hades ACs......
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Do they fire solid projectiles? I was under the impression that the Predator and Hydra both definitely fired explosive shells from their autocannons. The Hydra definitely is said outright to fire explosive rounds, and the Predator now has Blast, so also pretty much definitely [though the Pred also has a special autocannon now]
As for autocannons, I'm surprised they're not more prevalent. Autocannons are pretty prevalent IRL because they're astoundingly versatile and capable. Most AFV's are not tanks, and can be killed by a autocannon. An autocannon can punch holes in a bunker or go through an sandbag line that a rifleman's bullet wouldn't, and can severely damage a building. With a high rate of fire, they're also reasonably good at shooting at personnel.
Sure, an autocannon may not be effective against tanks, but most armored vehicles are really just bulletproof and I don't see a reason this status would change because it's driven by tactical requirements and efficiency, not technological limitations. So a light automatic cannon would be great.
So, yeah, an autocannon isn't an effective anti-tank weapon, but it is an effective anti-everything-else weapon. You wouldn't mount a full-scale tank gun on an armored carrier, it would detract too strongly from the primary tactical purpose of the vehicle [carrying infantry]. That's why most BMP/Bradley sort of things carry ToW missiles [and a Chimera carries H-K missiles]
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/08/07 20:05:10
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Huh, I didn't catch that the Predator Autocannon went to Blast. That's cool.
The 2nd Ed Wargear book states that Autocannons use solid slugs. I'm sure there's ample opportunity for other sorts of rounds in the 40K universe, but the generic ammo is solid.
As to why they're not more popular? That probably has to do with the many, many, many other sorts of weapons that can be taken on platforms that would be taking Autocannons in the modern day. For Space Marines, the Heavy Bolter, Grav Cannon and Plasma Cannon cover similar ground to the Autocannon. I guess the Multimelta does to, now. But Autocannons were available to Space Marines in 2nd Edition as well. Twin Autocannons might still be an option for Dreadnoughts if the Index is still viable. Oh yeah, Assault Cannons are another replacement and they come on so many platforms.
Otherwise Autocannons show up a bunch in Guard, Chaos, and should otherwise be in most "renegade" Imperial forces. Man-portable versions are common enough to show up in the hands of hive gangers.
Dont read too much into the Predator change. Its a mechanical application of any non-flamer random shot weapon getting the ability, not a statement regarding payload.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/07 21:29:44
In RT they were popular because the battlecannon didn't exist until 2nd edition, with the arrival of the leman russ tank.
(but an autocannon with AP ammo (wargear card) was still a formidable weapon.)
I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.
That is not dead which can eternal lie ...
... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
Sterling191 wrote: Dont read too much into the Predator change. Its a mechanical application of any non-flamer random shot weapon getting the ability, not a statement regarding payload.
mmm, not so sure about that. Nearly all of them actually had a blast prior to 8th. The Predator cannon got a buff for 8th and it appears to have been representative of a blast.
Insectum7 wrote: mmm, not so sure about that. Nearly all of them actually had a blast prior to 8th. The Predator cannon got a buff for 8th and it appears to have been representative of a blast.
What weapons did before 8th is irrelevant. Blast was a universal rule given to non-auto hitting random shot weapons in the 8th edition wargear rosters. Its how you end up with things like a relic Ion Cannon that isnt Blast, while regular Ion Cannons are Blast because the former is a fixed shot statline. The Predator autocannon got Blast because its a 2d3 shot weapon and doesnt auto-hit. Nothing more, nothing less.
Unless I've got a bad copy of the MRB or missed an FAQ, the Predator Autocannon does not have Blast in 9th edition (it is not included in the list on page 359).
For the OP, regarding the humble autocannon the 2nd Edition Wargear book states that "these weapons are considered ideally suited for attacking enemy vehicles..." The 2nd Edition Wargear book is a sacred text, so don't question it. For what its worth, it didn't have a blast template in 2nd Ed either.
In all seriousness, picture it as a man-portable 25 mm to 30mm cannon, biting chunks out of the enemy tank's armour. It's the grim darkness of the far future.
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Unless I've got a bad copy of the MRB or missed an FAQ, the Predator Autocannon does not have Blast in 9th edition (it is not included in the list on page 359).
For the OP, regarding the humble autocannon the 2nd Edition Wargear book states that "these weapons are considered ideally suited for attacking enemy vehicles..." The 2nd Edition Wargear book is a sacred text, so don't question it. For what its worth, it didn't have a blast template in 2nd Ed either.
In all seriousness, picture it as a man-portable 25 mm to 30mm cannon, biting chunks out of the enemy tank's armour. It's the grim darkness of the far future.
For what it's worth, the autocannon did have an area effect template in the original rogue trader.
Insectum7 wrote: mmm, not so sure about that. Nearly all of them actually had a blast prior to 8th. The Predator cannon got a buff for 8th and it appears to have been representative of a blast.
What weapons did before 8th is irrelevant.
Precedent is always relevant.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Unless I've got a bad copy of the MRB or missed an FAQ, the Predator Autocannon does not have Blast in 9th edition (it is not included in the list on page 359).
Yup, checked my BRB too. No Blast, just random shots.
Insectum7 wrote: mmm, not so sure about that. Nearly all of them actually had a blast prior to 8th. The Predator cannon got a buff for 8th and it appears to have been representative of a blast.
What weapons did before 8th is irrelevant.
Precedent is always relevant.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Unless I've got a bad copy of the MRB or missed an FAQ, the Predator Autocannon does not have Blast in 9th edition (it is not included in the list on page 359).
Yup, checked my BRB too. No Blast, just random shots.
Oh, okay, I was told in a game that it was blast and I couldn't use it to break my pred out of CQC, and I couldn't find the page in my CA and didn't think to check when I got home, so I guess I'm wrong about that.
That said, the Hydra is definitely described as firing high-explosive shells at some stupidly high rate of fire that seems much greater than Heavy 8 [though also, Heavy 8 represents ability to service discrete targets, so presumably it's firing a lot more than 8 shells per turn]
Yeah, the space marines have a lot of options for autocannon-like capability in the rules, though I'm not nearly convinced that a Heavy Bolter, Plasma Cannon, or Multimelta would really able to fully perform the same role with the same versatility and effect of an autocannon based on their lore. Autocannons IRL are really pretty great weapons to stick on things.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/08/08 18:07:14
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
even then it would be fairly primitive I suppose. Whatever the case, the autocannon is a semi-unique thing to chaos that I always loved.
