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It struck me that the Harlequins include the options to build a troupe master in their core squad box, but it has a separate character profile in the codex.

Which made me think, why can't we do that with aspects?

The new banshee box allows you to build 4 banshees and 1 exarch, or 5 banshees.

Maybe make the aspect squads 4-10 in size and allow them to build a character exarch separately if they want.

I'm still gunning for a basic exarch profile of:


M7" 2+ 2+ 4 4 4 4 9 3+
4+ invulnerable save

Exarch weapon options
Exarch special skills



And then the Phoenix lords are a better version on top

How am I meant to use this as a homebrew rule, take the models apart, strip them, put them back in the box and then act out painting them on game night?

pelicaniforce wrote:
How am I meant to use this as a homebrew rule, take the models apart, strip them, put them back in the box and then act out painting them on game night?

It's a practical way to allow a homebrew without requiring changed to model lines. They all sound good in theory, but unless there's a practical way of implementing them, most are just theory hammer. So here I am taking the Harlequin precedent and applying it.

So, all aspects are now 4-10. They don't include exarchs.

You can take a group of exarchs as a hq choice, at 5 power each.

Number: 1-5 (deploy at same time, act separately).
Each one has this profile
M7" 2+ 2+ 4 4 4 4 9 3+
4+ invulnerable save

Pistol, ccw and dire catapult

Keyword avenger

You choose to replace the avenger keyword with another aspect key word (Banshee, Scorpion etc) and you get access to a weapon list to replace what you've got.

Exarch special skills
You can take up to 2 exarch skills per exarch, based on their keyword

If there is an aspect squad within 6" with the same keyword, they may use the exarch's special skills.

I don't think this is useful or necessary. Troupe Masters got spun off as characters because someone at GW decided that the best approach to doing Harlequins was to make them an independent Codex without giving them enough models to function as an independent Codex, there isn't really a good reason for the change otherwise.

Don't most of the aspect boxes come with 6 models? Pretty sure my reapers, banshees, and hawks did. It's been a while since I've bought them new in box though.

If we were going to switch to making exarchs characters again, this would be a pretty inoffensive way to do it. However, I personally really prefer exarchs as squad leaders.

* Its awkward having the scorpion exarch fail a charge that his squad just passed.

* Many exarch powers are squad buffs; splitting the source of the buff off from the squad just seems like it's introducing unnecessary complications.

* Characters being easier to catch out now means that my opponent would be able to start sniping my buffer/beatstick as soon as a fraction of his squad dies.

Instead, I think I'd prefer that aspect squads be able to choose one power for the entire squad and one power for the exarch representing the shrine's teachings and the exarch's personal quirks respectively. Then, have one option available to all exarchs simply be an improved statline; possibly including a melee invul save.

So a fire dragon's shrine teachings might let them use their fusion guns as pistols instead of giving them the Assured Destruction rule, and their exarch might take either the Flaming Fists power or the ability to o mortal wounds with a Dragon's Breath Flamer as part of overwatch. (You'd probably make free overwatch part of that power in this scenario.)

Swooping hawks might choose between better grenades and the ability to fall back and shoot while their exarch chooses between bonus attacks on the charge and bonus shots with his gun.

I feel like phoenix lords already kind of fill the role of "character version of an exarch", and they need enough love as-is without their students stepping on their toes.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I don't think this is useful or necessary. Troupe Masters got spun off as characters because someone at GW decided that the best approach to doing Harlequins was to make them an independent Codex without giving them enough models to function as an independent Codex, there isn't really a good reason for the change otherwise.

Apart from the fact that exarchs were independent characters for 2 editions with stat lines of heroes capable of soloing marine captains and winning? Unlike a sergeant they are not squad leaders and never have been.

Just because GW decided to make them crappy sergeants doesn't change their background as the priests of khaine, dedicated to war, whether there are students to teach or not. They are mighty heroes of the craftworlds, respected and feared in equal measure. They take on the name of the suit they wear as a living legend walking.

They have more right to be independent characters than most, not the least because they USED TO BE ICs.

GW keeps pumping out new marine characters like it makes sense, inventing judiciars, master of possessions, executors etc. And people are like yeah sure cool.

But ask for a unit to be an IC like it used to be and actually represent the cool kung fu master hero they were, and suddenly it's unnecessary?


I will die on the hill that exarchs should be independent characters, like they were originally. There is absolutely no justification for them not being ICs, except that only Marines get cool hero characters.

Is there a reason they can't have better statlines and also be squad leaders?

Wyldhunt wrote:
Don't most of the aspect boxes come with 6 models? Pretty sure my reapers, banshees, and hawks did. It's been a while since I've bought them new in box though.

If we were going to switch to making exarchs characters again, this would be a pretty inoffensive way to do it. However, I personally really prefer exarchs as squad leaders.

* Its awkward having the scorpion exarch fail a charge that his squad just passed.

* Many exarch powers are squad buffs; splitting the source of the buff off from the squad just seems like it's introducing unnecessary complications.

* Characters being easier to catch out now means that my opponent would be able to start sniping my buffer/beatstick as soon as a fraction of his squad dies.

Instead, I think I'd prefer that aspect squads be able to choose one power for the entire squad and one power for the exarch representing the shrine's teachings and the exarch's personal quirks respectively. Then, have one option available to all exarchs simply be an improved statline; possibly including a melee invul save.

So a fire dragon's shrine teachings might let them use their fusion guns as pistols instead of giving them the Assured Destruction rule, and their exarch might take either the Flaming Fists power or the ability to o mortal wounds with a Dragon's Breath Flamer as part of overwatch. (You'd probably make free overwatch part of that power in this scenario.)

Swooping hawks might choose between better grenades and the ability to fall back and shoot while their exarch chooses between bonus attacks on the charge and bonus shots with his gun.

I feel like phoenix lords already kind of fill the role of "character version of an exarch", and they need enough love as-is without their students stepping on their toes.

I went with 4 as that's the plastic box set system they have for avengers and banshees.

I think exarchs fall into the same trap the whole army does with farseers - they shouldn't be necessary to make the squad adequate. The unit should be competent without them, they are veteran warriors of great skill, not newbs that need babysitting.

Mechanically they become a way for GW to underpower the unit. I very much enjoyed playing in 2nd Ed with aspects without exarchs. They actually felt like the should. The exarchs were cool ninjas that didnt need to hang with their aspects, although they could.

As for phoenix lords, that's like saying generic marine captains shouldn't exist so they don't step on name characters toes.

Each exarch is a great hero and deserves more respect than babysitter number 2

 Hellebore wrote:
...I will die on the hill that exarchs should be independent characters, like they were originally. There is absolutely no justification for them not being ICs, except that only Marines get cool hero characters.

They've been sergeants for twenty years. I'm not opposed to adding more ICs to the Eldar, I just don't think taking away weapons from Aspect squads is the right way to do it. Could you make your HQ Exarchs do something new instead of just taking the Exarch weapons out of Aspect squads so you can't have as many of them?

Yeah. I started playing in 5th edition, so I've only ever used exarchs as squad leaders. They've generally been really enjoyable squad leaders though. Between exarch powers and the exarch wargear, you can give an aspect squad a bit of customization. There's a story to be told about why your hawkxarch favors a sunrifle over a talon or why your banshee exarch uses a triskele instead of an executioner. I like that and wouldn't mind leaning into it even just a bit more.

But when I think about character exarchs, the aspect squads lose some of t hat customization. Plus, I'm picturing a banshee exarch who flubs an advance roll and only advances 1 extra inch after her students rolled a 6, leaving her exposed to shooting on your opponent's turn. I'm picturing having to awkwardly decide to deepstrike some shadowspectres but not their exarch because 1 CP for the webway strat is fine, but 3 is costly. I'm picturing guide helping out a squad of dark reapers but not the exarch standing in their midst.

Unless we're rejecting the decades of fluff and rules that indicate exarchs do generally hang out with their shrine members, I feel we'd be creating a lot of odd scenarios by making exarchs their own units.

I agree that an exarch should probably have much more impressive stats, but that seems like something you could include on a squad leader. Having sergeants that are way more skilled than the rest of their squad would be a fairly distinctive bit of flavor for our army too. And at that point, you'd probably have to charge points for exarchs again, meaning not fielding an exarch would also be a reasonable choice for those wishing to spend points elsewhere.

Hypothetically, how would you have phoenix lords and exarchs coexist as hq-slot characters without having one simply be a more efficient version of the other? Genuine game designer curiosity here.

Wyldhunt wrote:Is there a reason they can't have better statlines and also be squad leaders?

Not at all. I just think that being a squad leader fundamentally changes their status in the army In a bad way. They're all brilliant warriors that help form strategy, but they've been flanderised into these 1.dimensonal gun or sword obsessives that can't function except with gun or sword. They're examples of the warrior path in its purest form, but they've been reduced to 'scorpion fist obsessive' rather than 'path of war' obsessive.

They've been genericised in a way that is totally at odds with Thier fluff. They're supposed to be the farseer of the warrior path, not the glorified babysitter of the squad path.

AnomanderRake wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
...I will die on the hill that exarchs should be independent characters, like they were originally. There is absolutely no justification for them not being ICs, except that only Marines get cool hero characters.

They've been sergeants for twenty years. I'm not opposed to adding more ICs to the Eldar, I just don't think taking away weapons from Aspect squads is the right way to do it. Could you make your HQ Exarchs do something new instead of just taking the Exarch weapons out of Aspect squads so you can't have as many of them?

Ive been saying it was a mistake for 20 years as well...

I've suggested many alternatives with separate exarch HQ previously on this forum.

I thought maybe this was a way to practically do it with the miniatures available.



I've suggested:

Veteran aspect squad leader - trod the path many times, teetering on the edge of being trapped but not quite. Just a rename of the squad leader allowing the exarch title to become a hq.

Multiple levels of exarch - newly minted exarch, who are squad leaders, and different mastery level exarchs who are more powerful hq. You know the classic Kung Fu temple ranks where you've got newbs all the way up to the temple master.

Shrine lords - the oldest and most powerful exarch in the shrine, potentially even the founder, trained by the Phoenix lord themself.


The only thing that prevents any of this is the pure creative neglect of GW for the aspects. They have so much potential to be as in depth and interesting with their own traditions, teaching styles and histories as any marine chapter and he has shown just how creative they can be if they out the effort in.

What's worse is that the aspects and their shrines had a much bigger scope when they were introduced which is why I fell in love with them. Their shrines were huge training and equipping complexes with space for their vehicles.

They were basically eldar.marine chapters with all the potential great stories and heroes that that entails. The Phoenix lords were like their primarchs.


And GW has spent 20 years undermining that image to keep their precious marines the pinnacle of cool hero types. I'm just tired of it.


EDIT @ wyldhunt, I would create the same kind of design space between different levels of exarch as GW have done with captains, chapter masters, special character captains,. spacial character chapter masters and primarchs with space marines.

Of its good for them, it's good for aspect warriors.

I will always maintain that Phoenix lords should be the equivalent of a primarch for the aspects. There are even less of them than there were primarchs and you know what the inverse law of ninjitsu means.

 Hellebore wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:Is there a reason they can't have better statlines and also be squad leaders?

Not at all. I just think that being a squad leader fundamentally changes their status in the army In a bad way. They're all brilliant warriors that help form strategy, but they've been flanderised into these 1.dimensonal gun or sword obsessives that can't function except with gun or sword. They're examples of the warrior path in its purest form, but they've been reduced to 'scorpion fist obsessive' rather than 'path of war' obsessive.

They've been genericised in a way that is totally at odds with Thier fluff. They're supposed to be the farseer of the warrior path, not the glorified babysitter of the squad path.

I'm not sure I agree with you here. Exarchs are brilliant at warfare by virtue of thinking about little else for their long existences, but the existence of seers and autarchs mean that the job of actually leading a combined army rests in different hands. I picture a striking scorpion exarch as a valuable advisor to a seer or autarch. Brilliant. An expert in his field. But prone to favoring stealth and ambush tactics to a fault; unable to make the most of the brazen shining spears' and fire dragons' talents.

Plus, the violence that oozes off of them means that they literally have trouble communicating with those who aren't similarly covered in blood (see: Path of the Warrior). So to me, it makes sense that exarchs would lead on a squad level where their biases are an asset rather than being the leaders of the overall force. Not being in an HQ slot on an independent character doesn't have to diminish their esteem.

EDIT @ wyldhunt, I would create the same kind of design space between different levels of exarch as GW have done with captains, chapter masters, special character captains,. spacial character chapter masters and primarchs with space marines.

Of its good for them, it's good for aspect warriors.

See, and I think GW has actually done a pretty bad job of distinguishing between most of those. In the past a chapter master was just a chunkier captain. Now, they're equally chunky but one yells "shoot more betterer!" more effectively than a captain for some reason. Special character captains/chapter masters are generally straight up more powerful than their counterparts simply by virtue of belonging to a chapter that gets more attention. Basically, they're just good, better, and best Leader Marines. I dislike this for the same reason I dislike Eldrad simply being a farseer but better.

To my mind, if a special character is just a specific example of a more generic unit, their rules should be used to demonstrate how they're different from the generic version rather than simply being a better version of the generic unit. If Lady Malys ever gets rules again, I don't want her to be an archon with extra attacks. I want her to have rules that demonstrate her superior cleverness and the ominous crystal heart in her chest.

Phoenix Lords fill a unique niche of being "aspect warrior/exarch but as an HQ/character." Adding generic exarch HQs would mean that both units were trying to occupy the same niche, and it would just become a question of which one is more efficient for the points.

I will always maintain that Phoenix lords should be the equivalent of a primarch for the aspects. There are even less of them than there were primarchs and you know what the inverse law of ninjitsu means.

I've thought about this. I am all about explainign 40k units through the law of ninjutsu. However, I actually don't want phoenix lords to have the raw beatstick power of a primarch. Not because PLs are undeserving of the same gravitas, but because being a mountain of muscle isn't who they are. Granted, they should probably have better stats than they currently do , but I don't want PLs to just be a statline taken to absurdity the way the HH primarchs are. Instead, I'd like to see their raw stats be roughly on par with other rare legends of the galaxy like chapter masters, and then give them unique, supernatural abilities (stratagems?) that speak to their more-than-mortal nature.

Don't give Jain Zar the statline to trade melee attacks with Mortarion. Instead, let her howl so loudly that she debuffs the entire enemy army. Don't just quadrouple Asurmen's attacks; let him drain an enemy's soul with his diresword at a critical moment. Don't give Maugan Ra ten different ranged buffs; let him choose from one of several special attacks (that he spends CP to perform?) that suits the situation.

Heck, maybe treat them like assassins, letting players set aside points and spend CP pre-game to have the PL most suited for the job wander onto the scene; guided by the goals of Asuryan.

But it's late. I'm rambling and wishlisting. tldr; I'd like exarchs to be buffed but remain squad leaders. I'd like phoenix lords to be buffed, but I don't want them to be raw power beatsticks the way that primarchs are.