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With the announcement that there are some 'seismic' changes to statlines and weapons across the board, while also considering that it was confirmed that not every faction would get a new codex: Who's not gonna get one? ie is there any faction who are in a good enough place atm to weather the changes?

hmmm... No.

In my opinion every single codex faction needs an update. Maybe harlequins or sisters could get by? Custodes?? Maybe not really. If firstborn marines are getting 2W, everything needs to get dialled up to balance that. It adds some wonderful granularity (albeit the time period of this change to be implemented is going to be too long) to the game but it feels like there's nothing that can get left out. So with this philosophy how will GW not do codexes for every faction?

So do we read this as GW going the direction that SM are getting, with a core book and supplements? maybe an 'Aeldari' book with 3 supplements or perhaps a tyranid book with hive fleet/cult supplements? Would maybe even there be a core chaos marines book with supplements for TS, DG, BL, maybe even world eaters and emp children... oooo...

And then who desperately needs it straight after marines and crons? A xenos faction like eldar or nids, or imp guard?

What do we think?

Where did they say not every faction would get a new codex?

Because nothing I've seen, read, or listened to has suggested such a thing from them. The only four we know of(Deathwatch, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels) aren't "losing" their codices either. They've always been in a crummy spot with the update cycle of Marine books where if the core one gets updated, they miss out on stuff.

That's not the case anymore. Pretending that this means "some factions won't get codices" is downright disingenuous though.

They might not have outright said that not everyone will get a Codex, but 8th was the first edition I can remember that everyone did actually get one, eventually - and that's largely because of the sweeping changes of power levels and datasheets, they didn't really leave themselves a choice. Maybe the intent is to continue in that vein going forward - but that would surprise me.

Previously, "stopgap" editions where the rules are largely similar have seen some armies have to get by with either an old Codex from the previous edition barely dragging itself to relevance with some heavy FAQ'ing, or White Dwarf "lists" (I won't stoop to calling those proper Codexes). I could easily see this happening for some of the less popular factions, Genestealer Cults for example (and yes, I realise that said popularity is a self-inflicted balance problem).
Obviously Necrons are about to get a new Codex, and Sisters just got one - those are two factions with some of the longest historical wait times. My prediction here though, is that this could well mean they don't get another update until well into 10th edition, if we take how they've previously been treated as an example.

Craftworlds, Drukhari, and Orks ought to be next by my reckoning, just based on how long it's been since they had a proper refresh and rework.
Craftworlds in particular... they've not always had to wait too long for a new book, but the 8th Codex they got was frankly a bit pathetic. Nothing really new in there that they hadn't had in previous editions, and not even any new units or models until Jain Zar and the Banshees were updated - and that wasn't even timed with the book!

If we go off the release order for 8th:
Marines were first in July 2017
Chaos Marines and Grey Knights came a month later
Death Guard and Adeptus Mechanicus came after those
Guard and Eldar
Tyranids in November
Blood Angels and Dark Angels finished out 2017
Daemons and Custodes started off 2018
Thousand Sons in February
Tau, Necrons, and Drukhari in March
Deathwatch and Harlequins in May(April was AoS dropping a new army IIRC)
Knights were June
Space Wolves were August
Kill Team: Rogue Trader had the Gellerpox Infected and Starstriders in September
Orks were November
Genestealer Cultists were February 2019
Vanguard and Daemonkin were March
CSM 2nd Edition was August with Codex: Space Marines version 2.0(not the same as CSM, which was a reprint with the Vigilus material in it)
Chaos Knights were in there somewhere(not sure exactly)
Sororitas technically released in November 2019 with the army pack, but didn't properly come out until 2020.

Here's where my info comes from.

With that all said, I'm thinking:
Orks with Feral Orks added in
Mechanicus
Sisters of Battle
Drukhari

I'd like to see Daemons get a new Dex-one that actually lets each god function as an army.

DE and chaos daemons need new dex's bad, nurglings are great but that doesnt help us who dont play mono nurgle or nurgle soup.

Sisters will set out the entire ediiton without a codex but we are riding fine with the imperial weapon changes. though if we do get one it will be a month before 10th edition.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I'd like to see Daemons get a new Dex-one that actually lets each god function as an army.

Be careful what you wish for. The limited scope of the Chaos Daemon miniature lines means that a split into 4 armies within the same book could lead to a Dark Eldar situation, where there are three types of armies in there and a very thin amount of minis split between them, making playing the army far more difficult and restrictive than it needs to be.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I'd like to see Daemons get a new Dex-one that actually lets each god function as an army.

Be careful what you wish for. The limited scope of the Chaos Daemon miniature lines means that a split into 4 armies within the same book could lead to a Dark Eldar situation, where there are three types of armies in there and a very thin amount of minis split between them, making playing the army far more difficult and restrictive than it needs to be.

Imo they could solve this by including Daemons properly into their Cult Legion, making these rather god specific Codizes (like they did in AoS or with Khorne Daemonkin in 7th). So put all the Nurgle Daemons in the DG Codex and give them some Nurgle soup bonus there. For people who collected all the Daemons release a Daemon codex that relies on taking a mixed list.
What you describe was pretty much the case already in 8th, as you had boni dependant on running a monoforce.

Quite honestly, everyone can sit and bicker about how their army desperately needs a thing and the Army that beat them last needs a nerf and the one they always beat is fine...

...I'll just be happy if certain factions see the light of day again.

I'm hoping for an Inquisition mini-dex that brings in Deathwatch/Grey Knights/Sisters as a unit with Inquisition-specific rules and limitations.

I'm also hoping that Renegades & Heretics sees a proper release. Nothing like the most iconic bad guy army... not having an army.

 Kanluwen wrote:
With that all said, I'm thinking:
Orks with Feral Orks added in
Mechanicus
Sisters of Battle
Drukhari

Yeah, no. Or at least not any time soon.
When the SoB arrive the edition ends about 6 months later. So you've got about 3 years min. there.

8th Necrons have been borked since Index days, both Reanimation Protocols and Quantum Shielding are unfun mechanics, maybe the latter will be fairer now that it cannot be re-rolled, not to mention the slew of new datasheets means that it really is fair that Necrons are first on the chopping block. Daemons need a rework to ban infinite free summoning and update datasheets. SM need a new codex to keep up with new models and datasheet releases, they'll need another codex in about 16 months as they get powercreeped by the latter codexes and more new Marines datasheets are released. All the Marine sub-factions need new supplements, including BA, DA and SW. GK, CSM, TS, DG need new codexes to update their stats to the modern standard, ditto AM, GSC and Sororitas. Unless Knights, Tyranids, Harlequins, Craftworlds and Drukhari get new units they don't need new codexes as bad as the aforementioned ones. Tau Empire are flying on Erratas right now, free Overwatch being an Errata is not a good place for the faction if you consider new people joining the hobby and wanting to play but not neccessarily knowing that a good chunk of the faction's power is hidden in Errata. Orks need a codex because GW needs to find some kind of reason to keep Gretchin at 5pts/model, maybe give them two wounds for no reason.

ccs wrote:
When the SoB arrive the edition ends about 6 months later. So you've got about 3 years min. there.

Not if the edition only lasts 18 months then we could see SoB Codex in 12.

my guess is we'll see a focus on getting the factions that are impacted the most by the Marine changes their codex quick. this means chaos space Marines, Imperial Guard, and Sisters of battle will all get codices reasonably fast. these armies all share many of their weapons with space Marines and thus will have some big changes. expect minimal actual model releases for them however (likely a token character) as these are going to be fast releases. Orks I expect will also be reasonably early, simply because I imagine they'll release the 9E Ork dex along side Ghaz's independant release and I suspect that's coming. Eldar will likely be about a year off or more. I'm expecting Eldar to be the "big non marine release" for 2021.

While I don't want to "betray" my fellow guard players I think we could get along without a codex. While of course the points updates and the weapons changes have to be added, I personally don't see a fundamental mechanic in our army that needs to be adressed. On the whole it's my impression a sheet of paper listing new points, blast weapons and a few changed regimental doctrines (Tallarn, Mordian) that you put into your 8th codex would do

 Pyroalchi wrote:
While I don't want to "betray" my fellow guard players I think we could get along without a codex. While of course the points updates and the weapons changes have to be added, I personally don't see a fundamental mechanic in our army that needs to be adressed. On the whole it's my impression a sheet of paper listing new points, blast weapons and a few changed regimental doctrines (Tallarn, Mordian) that you put into your 8th codex would do

keep in mind, I'm predicting guard etc codices early in part because they ARE in a good place. take what's in 8th edition, tweek some language, fix the one or two things everyone knows "just doesn't work quite right" and add the changes to the weapon blocks and well.. bob's your uncle. IMHO Xenos releases should come later not because they need it less, but because they need it MORE. I'd rather GW take some time and make sure that eldar, orks etc actually WORK.

@ BrianDavion: fair point, you convinced me

If the 9th ed. codexes are already largely completed (according to some play testers), is there a reason why they couldn't release all or most within the first few months? If they will indeed rebalance the game it, would calm a lot of the current vitriol. If the issue is getting all the hard copies printed, they could initially just release the codexes through the app.

 harlokin wrote:
If the 9th ed. codexes are already largely completed (according to some play testers), is there a reason why they couldn't release all or most within the first few months? If they will indeed rebalance the game it, would calm a lot of the current vitriol. I the issue is getting all the hard copies printed, they could initially just release the codexes through the app.

GW generally likes to have a limited release schedule for fear that if they release too much at once people may not buy everything. (I mean in fairness they might be right, how many marine players ended up with every supplement because they where released over time?) my guess is assuming that's true we'll get 2 codices a month. and I fully expect them to stretch the marine release out stupidly long with the supplements just like last time.

 harlokin wrote:
If the 9th ed. codexes are already largely completed (according to some play testers), is there a reason why they couldn't release all or most within the first few months? If they will indeed rebalance the game it, would calm a lot of the current vitriol. If the issue is getting all the hard copies printed, they could initially just release the codexes through the app.

Because currently there are swathes of people buying Space Marines and less so Necrons. In a few months time when they have the new models to their collection, they will be prime targets for a new codex to top up / start a new army.

Drop them all at once and you miss out on the suspense, the build ups etc.

Also if any of said codexes contain new units, release of the codex needs to be in line with the production of those models / associated box sets they are exclusive to etc.

In short - money. The only balance that matters when it comes to releasing anything is the balance sheet in the accountant office.

They may well release the new codexes with the new lesser commanders we know are coming for a number of factions.

It will be, as always model driven.

Death guard might need one soon. If they get extra wound with errata then either they need serious point changes or they might be broken good. They are already one of the top dogs in 9th. With extra wound becomes super tough. Even dam2 weapon isn't much help as they essentially have extra 4+ save vs those so you need 3 through armour/invulnerable to kill 2.

The only candidates for "not getting a codex" I see would be Ynnari and Inquisition. Simply because GW has no clue how handle these kind of plug-in factions right now.

That said, I don't have enough insight into other factions to judge them this early in the edition, but orks are in need of some work, though not desperately so. Quite a few units are a mess right now and most competitiveness and synergies come from meta-strategies like target saturation, board control and low points per wound costs. It would be nice if there was some actual synergy between ork units besides the KFF.

Death Guard are in a pretty decent state with their great PA, if they get the imperial weapon changes FAQ'ed in, they might be able to hold out quite some time before they get their codex. Quite fitting for them
There is the issue with the shared datasheets between them, CSM and TS, so if GW doesn't go the easy route and drops those three codices at the same time, there might be a mess for some time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
Death guard might need one soon. If they get extra wound with errata then either they need serious point changes or they might be broken good. They are already one of the top dogs in 9th. With extra wound becomes super tough. Even dam2 weapon isn't much help as they essentially have extra 4+ save vs those so you need 3 through armour/invulnerable to kill 2.

Source?

Well GW already promised GK players a new codex in the last GK FAQ, they just didn't say when we will get one.

On who needs a books it is probably knights, they were a good seller for GW and are totaly not fit to play in a 9th rule set, and the changes they need would require a book/WD or a whole section in CA. And as a codex books costs more, GW will probably pick that.

And then something like demons, if it mirrors their plans for AoS, or Dark Eldar.

On a new Astra codex: fix the bad and/or newly obsolete stratagems *cough* Valhallan *cough*, drop Conscripts to 4 points because come on, include all the PA and Vigilus stuff + the updated Weapons proflies and Guard is good to go.

Maybe add a couple of special characters that aren't Catachans (Chenkov, Al Rahem etc) but that would be just for flavor reasons, not crucial.

 Esmer wrote:
On a new Astra codex: fix the bad and/or newly obsolete stratagems *cough* Valhallan *cough*, drop Conscripts to 4 points because come on, include all the PA and Vigilus stuff + the updated Weapons proflies and Guard is good to go.

Maybe add a couple of special characters that aren't Catachans (Chenkov, Al Rahem etc) but that would be just for flavor reasons, not crucial.

Anything that does not work in 9th from 8th SHOULD be sorted by errata /FAQs - if GW were doing their job properly.

 Jidmah wrote:


Source?

Them getting steadily top-5 and even top-3 spots in tournaments?

In edition where tough troops with midrange guns is king DG is in good position. They have all the tools needed. They can go to objective and have chance to actually survive there without some serious firepower. Unlike say grots, IG troopers etc which go away when somebody says "boo" so you need to swarm the objective with multiple units to survive there.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Where did they say not every faction would get a new codex?

Because nothing I've seen, read, or listened to has suggested such a thing from them. The only four we know of(Deathwatch, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels) aren't "losing" their codices either. They've always been in a crummy spot with the update cycle of Marine books where if the core one gets updated, they miss out on stuff.

That's not the case anymore. Pretending that this means "some factions won't get codices" is downright disingenuous though.

They down right inferred a new codex for TS and DG in their FAQs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
Death guard might need one soon. If they get extra wound with errata then either they need serious point changes or they might be broken good. They are already one of the top dogs in 9th. With extra wound becomes super tough. Even dam2 weapon isn't much help as they essentially have extra 4+ save vs those so you need 3 through armour/invulnerable to kill 2.

Yet another reason why pushing out these changes without codexes is a bad idea.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Yet another reason why pushing out these changes without codexes is a bad idea.

Horrible idea. These weapon changes should come out at roughly the same time...

As it is, I think certain army matchups will get really atrocious. Just better weapons, probably without much point adjustments? I wonder if you'll just see outright refusal to play an army like SM spiking until other armies get their new codex.

Many had suggested that the lieutenant previews (Sisters, Orks, Drukari and Deathguard) were a likely indicator of the codex release schedule. I still think that's a fair assumption.

Since the sister's curse has been mentioned in the thread already, I want to address that specifically. This time around, Sisters figured heavily into the promotion of the edition; on the 40k website, they were one of only 3 factions listed. Sisters also were the stars of the trailer. Finally, I think GW probably wants to buck the sister's curse. Releasing a sisters dex early would certainly displace a lot of the assumptions that get thrown around. And there won't be many new models, so it could be done quickly.

When the guard dex comes, I think it's going to be huge. I think Elysians will be added in plastic, Cadians and Catachans will get resculpted, I think they'll add an aircraft or two (they've got a transport, so they need a fighter and a bomber). This is why I don't think we're getting the guard dex this year.

As for Drukari: yes, I'm happy about plastic Lelith, just like I was happy about plastic Drazhar. However, I do think DE need more than that on the model front. If they added Trueborn and Bloodbrides, they'd have the potential for 2w models, which would help balance against the new 2w marine. In light of Chapterhouse though, they can't do it without releasing models.

My sincere hope is that this edition last longer than three years and that everyone gets a dex- or a supplement.

PenitentJake wrote:
Since the sister's curse has been mentioned in the thread already, I want to address that specifically. This time around, Sisters figured heavily into the promotion of the edition; on the 40k website, they were one of only 3 factions listed. Sisters also were the stars of the trailer. Finally, I think GW probably wants to buck the sister's curse. Releasing a sisters dex early would certainly displace a lot of the assumptions that get thrown around. And there won't be many new models, so it could be done quickly.

I'm hoping that you're right about this, I really am. But I'll believe it when it happens.

PenitentJake wrote:


When the guard dex comes, I think it's going to be huge. I think Elysians will be added in plastic, Cadians and Catachans will get resculpted, I think they'll add an aircraft or two (they've got a transport, so they need a fighter and a bomber). This is why I don't think we're getting the guard dex this year.

Guard will go from getting absolutely nothing for years to three new plastic ranges? I doubt that a lot. In fact, I doubt Guard will ever get resculpted basic infantry, since the 3rd producer variety is simply too great. The one thing I can see getting redone are Scions - who basically got their own mini dex again in PA.