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So here is a question for everyone. We all know legends are where old models go to die. Gw has said you can still use them but these rules won't be getting updated ever again. But how do you guys feel about facing legends on the tabletop?

I know before covid my FLGS treated legends like forgeworld when it came to tournaments and events. Some allowed them, some didn't. It normally came down to the "level" of tournament. (Example : the 1000pt beginner tournaments ment to get people in who don't have a large understanding of the game didnt allow forgeworld or legends. The 1500 pt allowed legends but not forgeworld, ext ext...) this isn't about forgeworld though.

Since the shutdown my basement game table has been getting some serious use out of it. This has allowed me to not only see more games than I used to but play more as well, experimenting with new list ideas and such. But today I was playing my new White Scars force and really didn't like the librarian. He had a jump pack, which is fine normally but white scars are all about bikes and it seemed weird to have 1 lib jump pack dude and everyone else on bikes (there were 21 bikes on the table from me lol). The lib on bike is legends but only 5pts more than lib with jump pack.

So the question then is this. Do you think there is any reason not to play with legends in a competitive environment? Is it like forgeworld (if you allow one why not the other?). Should they only be used for fun/casual? Personally I wish gw would just give us back all those old beautiful options. :(

My Capt & Librarian on bikes will continue to used in my assault company in perpetuity.

Completely fine.

Friend of mine has been building up a Sisters army for a while before the plastics came out.

He now has 50/50 plastic to old metal, and has a ton of characters that have "illegal" weapon options. I would never deny him the use of those weapon options that now only appear in Legends. And his Repressors, of which he has 4 I think, are 99.99% likely to go Legends as well once GW updates all the FW rules, and it'd be real gakky of me to deny him that.

As for whether they should or should not be allowed in competitive environment? I say HELL YES they should.

These things are legend simply because of the asinine no model/no rule thing that GW is obsessed with, not because they were "overpowered" or any other such nonsense. They were removed from the game proper because of miniature reasons, not rules reasons, so I see zero reason to exclude them from ALL levels of play.

Azuza001 wrote:
So here is a question for everyone. We all know legends are where old models go to die. Gw has said you can still use them but these rules won't be getting updated ever again. But how do you guys feel about facing legends on the tabletop?

Does the model have rules in this edition? (Legends = yes atm)
If so, bring it on.

I mean, is there some significant difference between me killing it last month when it wasn't legends vs killing it this month when it is that I've missed? And guess what? I'm going to kill it with the same stuff....

Azuza001 wrote:
So the question then is this. Do you think there is any reason not to play with legends in a competitive environment? Is it like forgeworld (if you allow one why not the other?). Should they only be used for fun/casual?

I see no reason to block them (or FW) from competitive play.
But then I'm not really concerned with your comp scenes as I think they poison the actual hobby. So if your models being blocked from that type of gaming encourages anyone to play more casual games & ignore tourney suggestions/tourney rules? Or better yet, walk away from that style of play? Then I'm OK with blocking them there.

Do you think there is any reason not to play with legends in a competitive environment?

Obviously so. The rules and points of Legends units aren't being updated or maintained. That's literally the point.

They have no place in competitive environment, any more than RT or 2nd edition weapons and unit profiles have a place in a 9th edition army. While the current divergence isn't as extreme (yet), it will get there over time.

Of course I use legends. I got the Minis painted so I'll bring them. And if legends is killed by GW some day I'll write my own profile for these models and still use them.

ccs wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
So here is a question for everyone. We all know legends are where old models go to die. Gw has said you can still use them but these rules won't be getting updated ever again. But how do you guys feel about facing legends on the tabletop?

Does the model have rules in this edition? (Legends = yes atm)
If so, bring it on.

I mean, is there some significant difference between me killing it last month when it wasn't legends vs killing it this month when it is that I've missed? And guess what? I'm going to kill it with the same stuff....

Your units got price hikes in 9e. Legends didn't.

Of course they should be used normally. I know that some people might claim that some options are overpowered, but seriously, given how bad GW is at game balance, that doesn't change anything.

It doesnt matter what anyone thinks about using legends in competitive play. The tournament rules will tell you whether you can use them, or not. Thats assuming competitive=tournament. Fun/casual, yes, no problem.

I am keen to continue using a facing legends units and at present as noted, there's not a huge difference. Units sometimes go two years with out a point change between Codexes or whatever.

However over time I imagine those points costs are going to look more and more wonky.

I mean Rough Riders are already dire as it is and so eventually we'll write them off for GW, and then they can sell us replacements while looking like the good guys because it's the 'Meta' and 'Competative events' that bar them while poor innocent GW has faithfully continued to support them via the legends system.

The most common response I get to asking whether legends units are fine is "why wouldn't it be?", with a few people requiring the model to be WYSIWYG (so no rokkit koptas proxying as KMB).

There are not a whole lot of competitive options in legends anyways, I can't think of any besides certain load-outs for autarchs and KMB options for some ork units. No getting point increases in 9th had almost zero impact on their viability.

My most commonly used legends options I use are big mek on warbike, painboy on warbike and da red gobbo(no better way to spend those last 30 points!).

The most commonly used legends options I face are riflemen dreads(dual auto-cannon dreads for the young ones), autarchs with more weapons and banshee masks, techmarine on bike and rough riders. Besides the autarchs, the vast majority is people just continuing to play their models.

tneva82 wrote:
Your units got price hikes in 9e. Legends didn't.

This would be my only issue with allowing Legends in competitive play currently. They need an update to match the points hike.
Otherwise? They're good to go, as has been stated there isn't anything much in there that really throws off game-balance or anything.

I can't say the same for Forgeworld, though. Whether the points are balanced or not is up for discussion, I know others have had gripes with Forge World's rules writing before - but simply put, there's a lot of Forgeworld stuff that is simply very big and powerful compared to the Codex they match up with, and allowing such units does shift a meta.

 Super Ready wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Your units got price hikes in 9e. Legends didn't.

This would be my only issue with allowing Legends in competitive play currently. They need an update to match the points hike.
Otherwise? They're good to go, as has been stated there isn't anything much in there that really throws off game-balance or anything.

I can't say the same for Forgeworld, though. Whether the points are balanced or not is up for discussion, I know others have had gripes with Forge World's rules writing before - but simply put, there's a lot of Forgeworld stuff that is simply very big and powerful compared to the Codex they match up with, and allowing such units does shift a meta.

and yet no FW units seem to make the cut , beyond SM ones, in combination with SM traits and rules, and only then. It's funnily also the only part that get's lowered prices pts wise by GW:

edited: - removed -

Nope, let's not make this thread about forgeworld. We've had hundreds of those. This is about legends only.

 Super Ready wrote:

This would be my only issue with allowing Legends in competitive play currently. They need an update to match the points hike.
Otherwise? They're good to go, as has been stated there isn't anything much in there that really throws off game-balance or anything.

Unless I've missed something, most competitive events already preclude the use of Legends models or wargear.

Thanks for the input guys. Like I said some of our tournaments allow legends atm, some don't. I really want a lib on bike for thematic reasons, not really competitive thinking but I also like to play in the tournaments when they show back up are more events than serious tournaments. But legends is one of those weird spots. Orks really have it bad as far as i can tell (man, so many "on bike" went to legends when they did that....) and we do have an ork player with some of those units.

Points aren't a real issue at the moment, since legends have points values that reflect 8th indexes were which tipycally higher than the current ones or on par at the very least, except troops which were cheaper but they aren't legends anyway.

I don't think there isn't a single legend unit that is undercosted at the moment, but I admit I mostly know the profiles of the army I own or I've played until the end of 8th edition.

A dual twin autocannon dread is pretty good for 110.

 p5freak wrote:
A dual twin autocannon dread is pretty good for 110.

One of my favorite models.

Legends give GW an excuse to shift a unit from codex to legend state.
I guess that old-school Marines will one day be shifted.

 p5freak wrote:
A dual twin autocannon dread is pretty good for 110.

Probably the only dread that can compete with FW dreads

 Jidmah wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
A dual twin autocannon dread is pretty good for 110.

Probably the only dread that can compete with FW dreads

Funny that, the average hellbrute is more enticing than 95% of FW dreads. There's just the issue, mail order only over here.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I am keen to continue using a facing legends units and at present as noted, there's not a huge difference. Units sometimes go two years with out a point change between Codexes or whatever.

Nowadays yearly.

And now legends are locked in points infinently(until 40k changes so much the codexes get rebooted completely as old codexes don't work even functionally at new edition at which point legend units are likely going to be dropped alltogether). Infinity is bit different to 1 year.

Well, can we expect to see point changes / adaptions for legend units?

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, can we expect to see point changes / adaptions for legend units?

I doubt it, it's a convenient way to "soft sqat" for GW without the issue of, well dealing with the outrage a potential real squatting can generate.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, can we expect to see point changes / adaptions for legend units?

The reason why those models became legends was because they are old, and GW isnt interested in supporting them anymore with points updates. So, no, its highly unlikely they will get point changes.

As legends become more legendary (get older and older and further and further) from the rules the answer is likely to change. The more the game updates itself while those things stay stagnant the more they're going to deviate from current balance. Such as it is. There's going to come a point where a major revamp makes something Legendary either ridiculously cheap, or laughably overpriced.

Imagine Calgar for less than 150 points.
Or 10 tactical Marines that lower enemy LD by -2 when they're nearby for 420 points.
The longer these things are out of the update cycle the easier it's going to be to exclude them voluntarily.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, can we expect to see point changes / adaptions for legend units?

Maybe. Sooner or later GW will remove stuff from codexes and put it to legends. When it does a few corrections, here and there may actually happen, including points values.

We're just talking about small changes that could take place every 5-6 years though, nothing comparable to changes about codex stuff.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
A dual twin autocannon dread is pretty good for 110.

Probably the only dread that can compete with FW dreads

Funny that, the average hellbrute is more enticing than 95% of FW dreads. There's just the issue, mail order only over here.

Nope, sorry, no tentacles and mutants in my Night Lords. I'll stick with my Night Lords Contemptors and Leviathan thanks.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
A dual twin autocannon dread is pretty good for 110.

Probably the only dread that can compete with FW dreads

Funny that, the average hellbrute is more enticing than 95% of FW dreads. There's just the issue, mail order only over here.

Nope, sorry, no tentacles and mutants in my Night Lords. I'll stick with my Night Lords Contemptors and Leviathan thanks.

Buy a regular dread, stick wings on it, there NL Hellbrute

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
A dual twin autocannon dread is pretty good for 110.

Probably the only dread that can compete with FW dreads

Funny that, the average hellbrute is more enticing than 95% of FW dreads. There's just the issue, mail order only over here.

Nope, sorry, no tentacles and mutants in my Night Lords. I'll stick with my Night Lords Contemptors and Leviathan thanks.

Buy a regular dread, stick wings on it, there NL Hellbrute

"Wings", funny. Chains, skulls, and various other assorted body parts would work though.