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Made in us
Roarin' Runtherd






Now that Space Marine 40,000 is set in stone for the forseeable future, how do you Marine players feel? I ask because my local meta has become mirror matches of marines, or non marine players playing each other.

Now that smol marines are here to stay and further models and buffs are coming out, do you all have problems finding games? Again to touch on the "nobody plays against Marines except Marines" comment, this is across the board, except the highschool kid we have. This is before your smol marines where known not to be legened bound.

I see this becoming worse as time goes on, I know marines are not winning every tournament, but after looking at the obviously weaker Necron codex coming, are any of you experiencing the double edged sword of being the most powerful and common faction?
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







If we're all just playing Marines v. Marines anyway I'd rather be playing 30k.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






Annoyed. This is one of the times when I'm really happy I invested in a Xenos army as a secondary.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

 AnomanderRake wrote:
If we're all just playing Marines v. Marines anyway I'd rather be playing 30k.

Seconded.
I’m playing Xenos this edition and I guess that I will never have problems finding a Marine opponent.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





From the looks of leaked special rules from White Dwarf, it looks like Necrons will be one of the strongest codex's of 9th edition. An Ork list won 2nd place at a GT event so I would argue Orks are one of the top armies right now competitively.
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




In my local meta where I'm the most prominent Marine player due to lack of other armies to bring, people ask me regularely to play with them. This includes Eldar, Thousand Sons, Necrons, Tau, Chaos Daemons, Death Guard.

We are not super competitive, but don't bring unoptimised, non sensical stuff to the board either.

Most of us are in their 30s or 40s so would have the spare income to chase the meta, but nobody feels inclined to. And I'm glad that there is no arms race going on.

I plan to start a Xenos army (Wraith Eldar or Ynnari mixed with Harlequins) as soon as I'm done with painting my 2000pts. Purely because I like the looks and fluff, less because I can't find games or only have mirror matches.


Believe it or not, but our games are usually quite balanced. It feels like the internet is playing a different game than I do to be honest.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/15 18:21:24


 
   
Made in is
Wicked Warp Spider




Iceland

 charz wrote:
Now that Space Marine 40,000 is set in stone for the forseeable future, how do you Marine players feel? I ask because my local meta has become mirror matches of marines, or non marine players playing each other.

Now that smol marines are here to stay and further models and buffs are coming out, do you all have problems finding games? Again to touch on the "nobody plays against Marines except Marines" comment, this is across the board, except the highschool kid we have. This is before your smol marines where known not to be legened bound.

I see this becoming worse as time goes on, I know marines are not winning every tournament, but after looking at the obviously weaker Necron codex coming, are any of you experiencing the double edged sword of being the most powerful and common faction?


I ain't touching my Dark Angels this edition, but I'm most likely going to be playing my Death Guard until a CW or a Drukhari codex comes out.

Cypher | Craftworlds | Drukhari | Dark Angels | Necrons | Emperor's Children(30k/40k) | Tyranids | Orks | Death Guard | Sisters of Battle | Chaos Knights

Daughters of Khaine | Blades of Khorne | Stormcast Eternals | Flesh-Eater Courts | Idoneth Deepkin | The Legion of Chaos Ascendant
 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




/shrug

I used to play Ynnari because I thought (and still think) it is some of the best lore GW ever created, bringing Eldar firmly into the story of "current" 40K instead of being a faction all about stories from "way back when".

And I had to endure years of being called a Powergamer and whining about how Marines aren't winning tournaments.

So GW listened to the people, gutted Ynnari and made Marines OP, so I guess the people won and we all have the 40K that the players have demanded for years and years.
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Sunny Side Up wrote:
/shrug

I used to play Ynnari because I thought (and still think) it is some of the best lore GW ever created, bringing Eldar firmly into the story of "current" 40K instead of being a faction all about stories from "way back when".

And I had to endure years of being called a Powergamer and whining about how Marines aren't winning tournaments.

So GW listened to the people, gutted Ynnari and made Marines OP, so I guess the people won and we all have the 40K that the players have demanded for years and years.


This basically. What will happen is they fail to quite tone the. Down gully enough probably and the result is in 18 months there's a 9.2 marine codex to rebalanced yet again. People will screech that it's too much too often while simultaneously somplaining about the existing book (like now).

Eventually GW will get fed up, hyper buff another faction beyond marines and suddenly they'll be forgotten by people like Ynnari as a passing phase.

Likewise to the OP I don't think it's fair to say the necron book is obviously weaker yet.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





Where I played when marines 2.0 dropped it was the biggest single drop in attendance we'd ever seen. our club saw a long, slow drop down to only a few regular members ~10 at the end of 7th ed, and then between the launch of 8th with a few really successful escalation leagues and a change of management, we saw a huge uptick in the number of people showing each week.

Week four of the escalation league when we hit 1k points games, we actually had every single faction that at that point had a codex represented in the club on one day except for Imperial Knights and Dark Angels. All of them. 14 tables going at once, with probably 60 people involved just not turning up every week.

By the time the last supplement dropped and people had 4-5 games with them under their belts, people started avoiding playing marines, and we had one week where every initial post in the "play game this week" thread was requesting an opponent that wasn't marines, both marine players and non-marine players both. We dropped down to about 4-5 active tables each week, with about 15-20 active members by the time the pandemic lockdown started.

We have appeared to build in the number of active members since the pandemic began, we did a lot of virtual painting days, and it was a good way to connect with folks about something you were looking forward to. So we had a bunch of people get a ton of painting done, start those new projects they wanted to start, some of us decided our project would be trying to build a 2000 point army based around Gretchins, mistakes were made, still had fun.

Right now we are limited by people not wanting to come in in person for obvious reasons, and the fact that the stores game table capacity is 4 right now on a reservation basis. We play in a big old warehouse space, so they've just set up tables really far apart and the rule is "only one person moves forward to the board at a time, the other person stands back."

But, overall, it seems to be back up towards what I'd call "normal" levels of attention. The 4 reservable tables at the store fill up reliably each week, and I know other folks are playing games at home, so we probably have 6 or so tables going each week.

In terms of marine grumbling theres kind of a pendulum backswing now that you can see elsewhere. When people know they're up against marines with not-marines, they tend to bring their best, nastiest, most brutal list they'd bring to a tournament, without REALLY considering what their opponent's playstyle is, and we're casual enough that mostly that winds up being a fairly basic marine list setup vs something resembling what you might bring at a tournament.

The one I was actually guilty of recently was an opponent who told me "its gonna be a primaris gunline with a chapter master and a gunline setup" and I brought a list that featured a 20-block of Rubric Marines with Cult of Duplicity and Disc Ahriman. So yeah, I infiltrated them, got first turn, got Prescience on them, and shot twice killing 5 aggressors and 12 intercessors turn 1. My logic was "Well, my opponent has a big unit of dudes that can shoot twice, I don't feel too bad including this" and....yeah, it felt bad, one unit took out like 500pts turn 1.

So the saltiest folks at this point are the marine players who've had to play a lot of really optimized list setups in a meta already tailored for anti-marine stuff since over 50% of the playerbase is playing marines.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I’m irritated mainly from a hobby and tactical standpoint every time I think I’m almost done with building and painting up my army or making final changes and tweaks to the list some new curveball comes out that will change the game or the ability of my army. Plus my to build and paint pile keeps growing and some units that were gonna take priority get pushed back cause now I have to be competitive and follow the path set by GW when I really just wanna finish my other models.
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




The dark hollows of Kentucky

People don't like playing against marines? Why, I don't have any problems finding opponents for my Night Lor.....*looks at OP* Ohhhh, you mean loyalist marines. Never mind. I'll see myself out.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





One of the guys at the club got into the game last year and went Marines. He regrets that decision and is picking up a second army now.

It's not that he lacks tactical options, it's not that they are hard to play, it's not due to limited model ranges as none of that is true. The issue for him is that all his opponent's default lists are geared to fight Space Marines and they're all very experienced playing against them.

He won more games in 2 months after lending my Necrons than he did all year as Space Marines simply because my local meta doesn't have many who play Necrons so they weren't prepared for how durable they can be (they've played me of course but I haven't played Necrons that much compared to my Death Guard and Tyranids).

Thankfully with new releases and his choice of a silver tide, he's hopeful to have his new army assembled and painted in record time lol.
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest




Annoyed. This is one of the times when I'm really happy I invested in a Xenos army as a secondary.


Ditto. I have a lot of secondary armies so I've been exploring those in depth.

And the statement "smol marines are here to stay" - heh ... shine on you crazy diamond!

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Chaos Space Marine dedicated to Slaanesh





None of the issues I state with Marines is intended to reflect negatively on the general character of Marine players. Primaris models *look* awesome - mostly - and I totally understand wanting to use them, and how much it sucks that one barely can without coming across as That Guy.

I myself have shelved any attempt to restart the corporate Ultramarines successors that gave me my namesake in 3rd edition, not until the dust settles, whether that's in a month when the codex drops, or - if the Marine codex 3.0 is as broken as it looks from the confessedly limited information we have - thirteen months when everyone else has their codexes and the game hopefully comes out to a better state of balance.

I'm absolutely sick of Marine releases; I don't want to see anything else come out for Marines for the next year. I want some serious damn nerfs in the codex (e.g. Remove Doctrines entirely) to have some hope that one day I'll be able to actually put my sapphire soldiers out on a table without feeling like I have to apologize for every unit's firing phase.

I'm going to be painting and modelling my dubstep-wielding Emperor's Children furries; possibly eventually my 3d-print concept for a Skaven/Admech mashup.

The games I'm playing are mostly TTS games in local, quite casual meta of half a dozen longtime friends, many of whom started playing 40K at the beginning of 9th. After some growing pains involving a Salamanders hipster, we have basically sworn off using Marines against one another until at least the Codex drop. Our games are fun and varied; we have people focusing on IG, Necrons, Tau, Dark Eldar and various flavors of Chaos, but we can switch basically as we feel like it.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





 charz wrote:
Now that Space Marine 40,000 is set in stone for the forseeable future, how do you Marine players feel? I ask because my local meta has become mirror matches of marines, or non marine players playing each other.

Now that smol marines are here to stay and further models and buffs are coming out, do you all have problems finding games? Again to touch on the "nobody plays against Marines except Marines" comment, this is across the board, except the highschool kid we have. This is before your smol marines where known not to be legened bound.

I see this becoming worse as time goes on, I know marines are not winning every tournament, but after looking at the obviously weaker Necron codex coming, are any of you experiencing the double edged sword of being the most powerful and common faction?


Well, marines just kind of feel oppressive to face, even as a marine player.

For one, the fact that everything hits, everything wounds, and then AP is universally high feels like units have far more effect on target.

On the flip side, the stratagems like Transhuman Physiology and Duty Eternal and 3+ saves becoming 2+ with cover also make it feel like "that one unit" takes a lot more effort to kill.

And that's before getting into how good Marines are at manifesting aggression and board control in the form of invictors, incursors, and infiltrators, and the whole "there's a unit to counter that".


And like, as a Marine player in a Marine on Marine matchup I mentally know that it's going both ways, it still just feels very oppressive and overwhelming and like "well that's a crock of gak"

Right now, I'm mostly playing my Space Wolves and Grey Knights, and I think I will continue to do so for the near future. I'm going to get what I need to make sure my Guard are ready to go [and essentially already have everything I need for my Sisters, except Zephyrim because they're new, though I really want to completely replace my repentia since the new models are so much nicer], but like I don't even know how my Guard would and could exist and stand in this brave new marine-saturated world. Like, my Space Wolves just feel so much stronger.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/15 20:08:31


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




As a Necron and Marine player, the core rules are as imbalanced as ever. I'm also expecting steady codex creep just like last time.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





I've not exactly had a local game since covid so we'll see how it goes. I think it's too early to dismiss necrons. we dunno everything (there could be some goodies for crons and some nasty marine nerfs coming we dunno about.) assuming GW's plan is to bring people up to Marines now's not that bad a time for the change to happen.

I mean as it is we know when the Marine 'dex drops SOBs are getting a hell of a upgrade.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in it
Stormin' Stompa




Italy

I play SW with no primaris, solid army overall but nothing gamebreaking and I have fair games with them. However as I refuse to play imperium vs imperium since when I started in 3rd edition I'll be focus entirely on orks at least untile the SW supplement drops as the meta here is already imperium heavy with AM, mech, sisters, custodes other than marines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/15 20:16:15


Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Well, marines just kind of feel oppressive to face, even as a marine player.


I've found them oppressive to play, even. All the rerolling gets really old. I like that a lot of the Tyranid bonuses I wind p using are simple +1s to hit. No rerolls, just a modifier.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Chaos Space Marine dedicated to Slaanesh





 Insectum7 wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Well, marines just kind of feel oppressive to face, even as a marine player.


I've found them oppressive to play, even. All the rerolling gets really old. I like that a lot of the Tyranid bonuses I wind p using are simple +1s to hit. No rerolls, just a modifier.


I know, right? It's almost cruel in the way it distributes then crushes hope. I roll a bunch of dice, I get a bunch of misses way out of statistical proportion, and ordinarily it'd be one of those WHAT IS THIS DICE?! wacky moments, but NOPE, Marines!

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





My Blood Angels only re roll 1's to hit, as do alot of HQ's units aura abilities in almost every codex in the game right now. It has already been revealed for 9th that the Chaper Master re rolls are going to cost more points instead of stratagem points, so GW has already nerfed it going into 9th to some extent. So no biggie imo. You can only fit so many units within range of the aura anyway. Gullyman still raises my eyebrows though, I think he should be rewritten so that he can only buff 3 units a turn, that would balance him out I think. Maybe cap the Chapter master at only being able to buff 2 units per turn? GW probably wont think of this though.
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User





Since 9th edition it starts to feel like an uphill battle again (I don't play Salamanders or Iron Hands), but perhaps that's because I face a lot of Chaos lists. Yes, I know it's kind of modern to whine about marines, but truth is, they're far from being top dog atm.

Perhaps some local metas just haven't adjusted to the later PA books. Right now, I see chaos lists with AAA-units like Obliterators or Noise Marines that can't be targetted by me unless they are the nearest unit (Stratagem) and kill a significant chunk of my army each turn (Stratagems).

Yeah, yeah, Eradicators are OP, bla-bla, I get it. But they (and other SM units) can't be made untargettable and they can't shoot twice with a plethora of buffs. It's not like I'm frustrated about that, I like hard games. What I'm frustrated about is that lots of people seem to have missed what some (non SM-) factions can do nowadays and just go on whining and calling for nerfs.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




You're basically just saying Alpha Legion is good, which was already the only way to really run CSM successfully.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit






Across the Rubicon

For me, there is no meta since there are no games happening. It appears that there's a good chance at least the next set of codices are going to happen before I get a chance again. That said, I don't think marines meta is as known as much of Dakka believes it to be the case and is certainly not set in stone yet (or ever given CA/FAQ are probably going to still be a thing. I am going to mostly withhold comment until Codex: Space Marine 9th ed is out as there could be a good deal of curve balls up until that point. Even then, I have little doubt that it will be seen as overpowered. Which in the context of few updated codices for 9th ed will probably be true.

What I can comment on is being a player of a Primaris only army a little before 8th's C:SM 2.0 but mostly playing my army with C:SM 2.0. I never made use of Chapter Supplements as my custom Primaris army is an unknown chapter, and I didn't really feel like spending the money on any supplement. I felt that straight C:SM was plenty and many times still felt like a little too much. So after my first game with my Primaris, I never brought more than 90% of the agreed upon points.

It was hard to say at that point whether my Primaris were still too good or was a combination of low-skill floor/me actually study how I was going use them/they generally fit my play style. Not to mention I think after a couple of months of C:SM 2.0 there was a sort of boogyman element particularly toward Primaris marines. I will admit I won nearly all the games I played with my Primaris (about 10 games). Only losing playing my only ITC style mission (which I really wasn't interested in playing) to an Imperial Guard player whose guardsmen quickly screened out no man's land with Move, Move, Move and pushed forward with their armor and pummeled me with artillery.

For 9th, I am optimistic that as more and more codices are released for 9th space marines are going to look like less and less of a threat. I think there's still a good chance at very low end (novice) marines may still seem oppressive due to still having a low skill floor and perhaps being a faction that simply doesn't allow for tabling nor cookie cutter strategies. Well one can dream anyways.

When the pandemic lets up I am sure I will be able to use my Primaris as I always have. I do have to admit that with Indomitus, there definitely seems like a lot more Primaris are going to be at my FLGS. Which is surreal to me as when I had finished painting enough stuff to put together an army I think there really wasn't anyone that actually had a full Primaris army and only one other person that really wanted one. Maybe some were drawn to the OP rules, but I suspect more were drawn to some aesthetic that Indomitus brought. Becuase I am sure there will be more Necron players. I know there will be more space marine players.

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




Funny thing is I'd probably start one if they weren't so ridiculous.

They have a great model line, especially some of their cool dreadnaughts (normal and FW).

But I also want a tactical war game. It's not really tactical when you feel like you're cheating at every turn.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Nalim wrote:
Since 9th edition it starts to feel like an uphill battle again (I don't play Salamanders or Iron Hands), but perhaps that's because I face a lot of Chaos lists. Yes, I know it's kind of modern to whine about marines, but truth is, they're far from being top dog atm.

Perhaps some local metas just haven't adjusted to the later PA books. Right now, I see chaos lists with AAA-units like Obliterators or Noise Marines that can't be targetted by me unless they are the nearest unit (Stratagem) and kill a significant chunk of my army each turn (Stratagems).

Yeah, yeah, Eradicators are OP, bla-bla, I get it. But they (and other SM units) can't be made untargettable and they can't shoot twice with a plethora of buffs. It's not like I'm frustrated about that, I like hard games. What I'm frustrated about is that lots of people seem to have missed what some (non SM-) factions can do nowadays and just go on whining and calling for nerfs.


Salamanders can also make something untargetable, although it is far more restrictive then the AL or DG strat.

But to the OPs point, I dread the new codex. I've been a salamanders player since 5th ed and it's my only army (I don't want to sink the time or money into another, and I've always been a fan of heavy infantry). This new primaris wave really does feel like a Marine +1. I know the points aren't out yet, but with heavy intercessors, eradicators, and the new land speeders - it just seems so over the top.

The heavy intercessors seem like the worst offender currently. Lets make firstborn 2 wounds and a little more expensive, okay fine - I guess (Although I still have reservations about this). Then lets make these 3W T5 Obsec units that are also perfectly kitted out to kill those units and have an HB that is better in every way. Need something to keep those firstborn terminators in check eh? Like, I just don't understand any possible gameplay logic in these units. They aren't good for gameplay health. This isn't even going to the fact that even as a marine play I'm not going to be able to remember all these names. In some other thread it was mentioned that there are now somewhere around 32 different bolt-weapons. Why? Before the supplements dropped I was able to remember pretty much every relevant rule and wargear piece. The supplements put a heavy strain on that, but now with the new codex how the hell am I supposed to remember all of these? Or even worse, how is my Opponent supposed to remember the difference between a heavy bolter, heavy bolt rifle, Executor heavy bolter, hellstorm Heavy bolter... etc.,

I'll still keep my eyes open, and things may change - but I am not hopeful right now.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/15 22:48:15


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Marines are really good. Still haven't lost to them yet this edition though.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





So instead of creating new units and innovating with new units and rules you want GW to just throw in the towel? Also what is " gameplay health " ? Gameplay is setting up your models on the table, rolling the dice, and following the rules. Please tell us about this new definition you have created called " gameplay health " and what does it entail? Health is a term used for living breathing people/animals that are actually alive, not plastic models...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Nalim wrote:
They aren't good for gameplay health.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2020/09/16 02:31:56


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

Well, the only meta I care about is 8-15 people. We can field a fair amount forces & don't have any qualms about playing mirror matches, Imperium vs Imperium, or one another (no matter what was brought). And if someone new joins & all they've got is some flavor of Marines? So be it. We'll play them too.
Whatever shows up is fine.
   
 
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