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Why did GW decide to slam every >200pt large vehicle model in the Necron/SM codex into the dumpster?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





This is something I'm not seeing talked about much with the new releases, but holy actual god did GW decide that large vehicles needed to get absolutely slammed. New Gladiator tanks all over 200pts, land raiders sitting at 285 base, 300+ point repulsors, 300+ point Lord of War Monoliths, 100 point nerfs to multiple large models just months after the CA2020 points update.

It seems crazy to be shipping these kinds of changes without some kind of reduction in deadliness, which as we all know from the rampant Eradicator discussion is not happening pretty much anywhere. Vehicles are going to be taking more damage from dedicated AT weaponry but also more damage incidentally from anti-elite weaponry, which has an obnoxious tendency to just...not care about your vehicle having +1, +2, or even+3 toughness as compared to another vehicle - a heavy bolter hurts a Leman Russ the same as it hurts a T6 Goliath Truck or Taurox.

Personally I don't tend to use a whole lot of larger models in the game, but I'm surprised to see so little reaction to a whole swathe of vehicles apparently being relegated to Land Raider Hell.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Well maybe they want people to stock up an aggresors and the new up coming erdictors kits, only to nerf them in the spring on push primaris tanks on to people after they get fixed alongside the erdictor nerfs.

This way no one is going to stay with the same army they bought at the start of 9th, or worse for GW 8th ed.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Kovnik





washington state USA

Welcome to the GW mad pendulum swing

in 4th non-skimmer vehicles were trash, they made them a little more survivable in 5th, then in 6th they made them paper again with hull points added to the damage chart that already existed(effectively giving them 2 damage systems that had the same results).

they are doing the same thing with the changes from 8th to 8.5 to 9th. much of it has to do with marketing new kits, or kits you need to buy many more of, or refocusing off kits that are no longer the big sellers.

People love the 40K universe, they love the minis they WANT it to be good/work, so no matter what GW does most players will still keep shoveling money at them, as long as that happens GW has no incentive to change course.

Lets face it there is no direct competition on the scale of GW even if many of the other game systems out there are better than current 40K. they just don't have the community support. and the few of us who have walked away by choosing to play 40K our way (an older edition) are the minority.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/06 18:10:12


 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





the_scotsman wrote:
land raiders sitting at 285 base, 300+ point repulsors,
That's where they were before this? I mean the "base" cost is different because they changed back to including the "base" weapons/equipment in the "base" cost, but once you add the required base weapons onto the old hull cost, you're still within a few points of their new base cost.


Personally I don't tend to use a whole lot of larger models in the game, but I'm surprised to see so little reaction to a whole swathe of vehicles apparently being relegated to Land Raider Hell.


They didn't change much? The Gladius all being 200+ points kind of sucks - especially for the Lancer, that one does not look at all impressive - but that's about where we were predicting they'd land. Land Raiders were about 285 in 8th, 3 Repulsor Executioners were more than half your 2,000 points.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps




Blaming eradicators is missing the forest for the trees.
Yes, they're too good. But AT is widely available in quantity, and isn't even wasted with all the heavy infantry running around.

Even dropping in with meltaguns or combi-meltas is a reasonable tactic for a lot of armies. As the_scotsman points out, even heavy bolters are putting dings in now.

Most Main Battle Tanks are overpriced or have too few wounds (or both) at this point.

The new marine toys that aren't infantry are largely mediocre to poor choices. The cheapest Gladiator is the pure AT version at 200 points for 2 strength 10 attacks that feel bizarrely weak. The new speeders are a good bit more expensive than landspeeders, but aren't offering much return (especially since they degrade)

If you want to go for 'vehicles' in SM, grab dreads. Those are pretty good, and benefit from a lot of changes.

The necron stuff relies heavily on quantum shields or 4++, which their 'big stuff' doesn't have. Its an odd direction, since it does little but directly impact the sales of new kits.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in fi
Dakka Veteran






Oh I agree - it's maddening.
I have two monoliths and an Obelisk.
I actually built the Tesseract Vault as an Obelisk (on purpose with Glue and everything) because I thought it looked cool and sleek and the Vault would be a pain to store and transport and I wanted the Transcendent C'tan to be separate because I wanted to run the Necron monster mash list with 3 or 4 C'tan.
So yeah... FML... I got double kicked.

I can only speculate that there's not as much outcry because a lot of people had already relegated a lot of this stuff to the Cool but Impractical shelf.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





So, I'm guessing I should be glad my only Space Marine vehicles are a Las Predator and a Razorback that I don't know what to do with?
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Welcome to the KV128's home since pretty much the start of 8th.
   
Made in us
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps




Personally I don't tend to use a whole lot of larger models in the game, but I'm surprised to see so little reaction to a whole swathe of vehicles apparently being relegated to Land Raider Hell.

Forgot about this bit, but probably worth addressing it separately anyway.

I think for a large number of people, it doesn't sink in/become reality until the books have been out a while.

A surprising number of people have had points and rules quoted at them directly from previews, photographs and videos, but carry on with their 'maybes, ifs and 'no it doesn't work that way'' as if the changes don't exist.

Sometimes its a mistake or misunderstanding, and fair enough, there's a lot of information to process and some of it is second hand. I've made mistakes that way myself.

But today I've seen people act as if the the DA FAQ published by GW doesn't exist, so we pretty much have to account for a time delay for people see and internalize the information.

Going by the surprise about the lack of weapon changes for other armies and no 2W for chaos marines, we might need two months before people start reacting to the shift away from main battle tanks.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I've said for a while now that vehicles are junk in 9th. GW's brainless approach to anti-tank weapons not being as good as mid-S high shot volume was just to buff everything to be even more deadly to everything. The result is that single entity units are not a good bet, unless they have at least a 4++ or another good way to negate damage.

The necron vehicles are actually interesting because QS is very good against anti-tank, and for 1CP you can get it up to a 4++, meaning you only take 1 in 4 hits from anti-tank. Even a unit of eradicators doesn't kill a QS vehicle.

Of course, monoliths etc don't have QS, or even an invuln, making them total junk and absolute eradicator bait.
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut




Unkindly, there isn't much to say. I.E. you previously started a thread on "is anyone going to use vehicles?" - and the forum widely went "no, probably not."

Also such units were by and large bad before, so little is really changing meta wise. (I know there was that lengthy thread on making Land Raiders great again, but I think they've been overcosted for the last 20 years unless I'm blanking a year or two.)

I'm assuming we are going to get some "woops, all vehicles now have double wounds" - and uh, Lascannons and Las-equivalents do 2D6 damage - towards the end of 2021.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I love that Marine player's have written of the gladiators as trash.

Especially when a minority are still claiming riptides are OP not realising the gladiator is less points with more firepower.

I suspect that untill we see a codex that you could say had vehicals as core to it's design we won't truely know, however I do believe that this is GW deciding to force players to play the armies the way GW intended by using core to restrict buffs to what GW consider the units that should be in those armies.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





That's a really dishonest comparison.
Riptides have never been good for the firepower, but because they are extremely hard to take down.
Give the gladiators a 3++ and you bet that it will change Marine's vision of it.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Potential and practical one turn of shoting would have to be huge from a tank that comes without an inv save, unless it is realy cheap, like under 130pts with weapons.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Breton wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
land raiders sitting at 285 base, 300+ point repulsors,
That's where they were before this? I mean the "base" cost is different because they changed back to including the "base" weapons/equipment in the "base" cost, but once you add the required base weapons onto the old hull cost, you're still within a few points of their new base cost.


Personally I don't tend to use a whole lot of larger models in the game, but I'm surprised to see so little reaction to a whole swathe of vehicles apparently being relegated to Land Raider Hell.


They didn't change much? The Gladius all being 200+ points kind of sucks - especially for the Lancer, that one does not look at all impressive - but that's about where we were predicting they'd land. Land Raiders were about 285 in 8th, 3 Repulsor Executioners were more than half your 2,000 points.
I havnt seen the full marine dex yet but can you confirm this? The lancer I was hoping for about 140-160 points. At 200+ it is straight worse than a las pred...which is actually quite high praise.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





sanguine40k wrote:
Welcome to the KV128's home since pretty much the start of 8th.


If you gave me 15 guesses I could not correctly tell you what a "KV128" is.

Or even what army it's in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Breton wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
land raiders sitting at 285 base, 300+ point repulsors,
That's where they were before this? I mean the "base" cost is different because they changed back to including the "base" weapons/equipment in the "base" cost, but once you add the required base weapons onto the old hull cost, you're still within a few points of their new base cost.


Personally I don't tend to use a whole lot of larger models in the game, but I'm surprised to see so little reaction to a whole swathe of vehicles apparently being relegated to Land Raider Hell.


They didn't change much? The Gladius all being 200+ points kind of sucks - especially for the Lancer, that one does not look at all impressive - but that's about where we were predicting they'd land. Land Raiders were about 285 in 8th, 3 Repulsor Executioners were more than half your 2,000 points.
I havnt seen the full marine dex yet but can you confirm this? The lancer I was hoping for about 140-160 points. At 200+ it is straight worse than a las pred...which is actually quite high praise.


The Lancer is 200pts. 2 S10 AP-3 Dd3+3 shots at BS2+ works out to 4.62 unsaved wounds vs "standard tanks' vs a laspreds 5.1. A laspred is I believe 180 now? The Lancer has 4 Storm Bolters and is T8 W12 vs the Pred's T7 W11.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/06 19:05:12


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Spoletta wrote:
That's a really dishonest comparison.
Riptides have never been good for the firepower, but because they are extremely hard to take down.
Give the gladiators a 3++ and you bet that it will change Marine's vision of it.

Riptide is T7, 2+, 5++ and it's 275 base
Gets 12 and 8 shots

Galldiator has 24 S6 -1/-2AP 1D shots plus
8 rapid fire S4 -1/-2AP 1D for 230 points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/06 19:11:07


 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps




the_scotsman wrote:
sanguine40k wrote:
Welcome to the KV128's home since pretty much the start of 8th.


If you gave me 15 guesses I could not correctly tell you what a "KV128" is.

Tau... something, presumably. GW leaned into attaching meaningless alphanumeric codes for the various suits, but I didn't realize Tau players made conversations more difficult by actually using them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/06 19:09:16


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in ca
Aspirant Tech-Adept






Voss wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
sanguine40k wrote:
Welcome to the KV128's home since pretty much the start of 8th.


If you gave me 15 guesses I could not correctly tell you what a "KV128" is.

Tau... something, presumably. GW leaned into attaching meaningless alphanumeric codes for the various suits, but I didn't realize Tau players made conversations more difficult by actually using them.


Bruh, thats the Stormsurge's "code". I never ever heard anyone call it by its code, its always "my stormsurge"

Admech 5000
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At a comparative standpoint, LR's and all other +250 pt vehicles actually got point reduction as everything else went up in points.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





 skchsan wrote:
At a comparative standpoint, LR's and all other +250 pt vehicles actually got point reduction as everything else went up in points.


My Deathwatch army went up in points so much that I could afford a second imperial assassin in my list, lol.

.....but that comes from me having used dumb gak like HTHs and Frag Cannons in my list before, instead of making every veteran a SS/SB.

Nothing like your army doubling in wounds and going down in points! Balance!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/06 19:24:28


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






deleted

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/10/06 19:28:49


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





Ice_can wrote:
I love that Marine player's have written of the gladiators as trash.


I'm not. One of them probably is trash, the Lancer does not look good. The Valiant may end up being decent but not great. The Reaper looks like it might even be good. Have to wait and see when I get the book to be certain.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Breton wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
I love that Marine player's have written of the gladiators as trash.


I'm not. One of them probably is trash, the Lancer does not look good. The Valiant may end up being decent but not great. The Reaper looks like it might even be good. Have to wait and see when I get the book to be certain.

Auspex Tactics on youtube has a video going over them all, and nice clear shots of each datasheet.
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 Xenomancers wrote:
I havnt seen the full marine dex yet but can you confirm this? The lancer I was hoping for about 140-160 points. At 200+ it is straight worse than a las pred...which is actually quite high praise.


I haven't either, but 200 points was about where I was predicting them - based on Impulsor chassis plus guestimates on the weapons. I think they added up to about 180 where/when you could do the adding, then I tossed in about 20 points with the assumption GW would too with a hoped for but not expected beefier stat line similar to Rhino to Predator - both of which GW has supposedly delivered.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The funny thing is, only like 3 armies right now are trashing vehicles. Marines, Sisters, and necrons, and of them, both marines and necrons have an entire class of vehicles that exist with the ability to mitigate damage coming at them to remain effective, but no one else has this damage, so until new books come out, quantum shielding and duty eternal are pretty crushing to armies not having the new damage output.

And knowing GW, it is no guarantee new armies are gonna get any. There's always the risk your book comes out and you're the new necrons of the edition after all
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





the_scotsman wrote:
sanguine40k wrote:
Welcome to the KV128's home since pretty much the start of 8th.


If you gave me 15 guesses I could not correctly tell you what a "KV128" is.

Or even what army it's in.


Alphabet Soup units are always Tau. In fact, that's how GW names their new Tau units. They all have a bowl and whoever gets the coolest spoonful gets to name it.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






stratigo wrote:
The funny thing is, only like 3 armies right now are trashing vehicles. Marines, Sisters, and necrons, and of them, both marines and necrons have an entire class of vehicles that exist with the ability to mitigate damage coming at them to remain effective, but no one else has this damage, so until new books come out, quantum shielding and duty eternal are pretty crushing to armies not having the new damage output.

And knowing GW, it is no guarantee new armies are gonna get any. There's always the risk your book comes out and you're the new necrons of the edition after all


I can't speak for Marines, but a couple points for Necrons:
Necron vehicles have always had Quantum shielding though - they've changed it because otherwise it would basically auto-pass against too many of the Dx+y style AT weapons but it's arguably better against the hail of multiple lower damage shots.
OP was originally talking about big 200+ point vehicles.
Doomsday Ark is under 200 points - it was good before and it's still good. I haven't heard anyone complaining about the Ark. Only discussion I've seen is comparing it to with its direct competitor - Doomstalker which has a 4++.
Triarch stalker is largely unchanged except its long ranged AT gun is more anti elite infantry. It's under 200 points and is still about as good as before.

Only Necron complaining about vehicles is for the Monolith which has no quantum shielding - it gained a 2+ save and 4 wounds and a damage output boost but they moved it into Lord of War. The 3 CP cost + no invul means it probably won't see much play outside of casual.
The Obelisk is also a 370+ point LoW whose only gun is AP0 with some gimmicky anti-aircraft powers - it doesn't have quantum shielding and it can't dish out any damage and costs 3 CP to boot.
The Vault is 500 points but has a whole host of damage powers and a 4++ and is considered viable at least some from what I've heard.

So basically the complaining in the Necron world is about 200+ point vehicles that don't have Quantum shielding or other invul that were bad before and are even worse in a world of high damage & consistent damage AT weapons.
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




San Jose, CA

Breton wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
sanguine40k wrote:
Welcome to the KV128's home since pretty much the start of 8th.


If you gave me 15 guesses I could not correctly tell you what a "KV128" is.

Or even what army it's in.


Alphabet Soup units are always Tau. In fact, that's how GW names their new Tau units. They all have a bowl and whoever gets the coolest spoonful gets to name it.


what about my RH1N0?
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Voss wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
sanguine40k wrote:
Welcome to the KV128's home since pretty much the start of 8th.


If you gave me 15 guesses I could not correctly tell you what a "KV128" is.

Tau... something, presumably. GW leaned into attaching meaningless alphanumeric codes for the various suits, but I didn't realize Tau players made conversations more difficult by actually using them.


I was thinking some form of Russian WWII tank, to be honest.

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