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Why did GW decide to slam every >200pt large vehicle model in the Necron/SM codex into the dumpster?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in gb
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator




 Dysartes wrote:
Voss wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
sanguine40k wrote:
Welcome to the KV128's home since pretty much the start of 8th.


If you gave me 15 guesses I could not correctly tell you what a "KV128" is.

Tau... something, presumably. GW leaned into attaching meaningless alphanumeric codes for the various suits, but I didn't realize Tau players made conversations more difficult by actually using them.


I was thinking some form of Russian WWII tank, to be honest.


Those went as far as the KV-2, I'm afraid. Or the KV1-S, for the most amount of letters.

Germans go for word soup though - Panzerbefehlswagen III mit 5cm KwK L/42 / Sd.Kfz.141.

Disclaimer - I am a Games Workshop Shareholder. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







AdmiralHalsey wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
Voss wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
sanguine40k wrote:
Welcome to the KV128's home since pretty much the start of 8th.


If you gave me 15 guesses I could not correctly tell you what a "KV128" is.

Tau... something, presumably. GW leaned into attaching meaningless alphanumeric codes for the various suits, but I didn't realize Tau players made conversations more difficult by actually using them.


I was thinking some form of Russian WWII tank, to be honest.


Those went as far as the KV-2, I'm afraid. Or the KV1-S, for the most amount of letters.

Germans go for word soup though - Panzerbefehlswagen III mit 5cm KwK L/42 / Sd.Kfz.141.


Don't forget the KV85, of course, even if it wasn't around for all that long.

2019 Plog - Dysartes Twitches - 2019 Output

My Twitch stream - going live at 7pm GMT Tuesday & Thursday, 12pm Sunday (work permitting).

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
 
   
Made in gb
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator




 Dysartes wrote:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
Voss wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
sanguine40k wrote:
Welcome to the KV128's home since pretty much the start of 8th.


If you gave me 15 guesses I could not correctly tell you what a "KV128" is.

Tau... something, presumably. GW leaned into attaching meaningless alphanumeric codes for the various suits, but I didn't realize Tau players made conversations more difficult by actually using them.


I was thinking some form of Russian WWII tank, to be honest.


Those went as far as the KV-2, I'm afraid. Or the KV1-S, for the most amount of letters.

Germans go for word soup though - Panzerbefehlswagen III mit 5cm KwK L/42 / Sd.Kfz.141.


Don't forget the KV85, of course, even if it wasn't around for all that long.


Ah, I thought I was forgetting one, and it is technically more numbers. Well reminded!

Disclaimer - I am a Games Workshop Shareholder. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







One of the "advantages" of playing World of Tanks for a while - some of these things stick in the back of your mind

2019 Plog - Dysartes Twitches - 2019 Output

My Twitch stream - going live at 7pm GMT Tuesday & Thursday, 12pm Sunday (work permitting).

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
 
   
Made in nl
Numberless Necron Warrior





The only >200pt vehicles in the Necron codex are the in the Lord of War slot, of which only one is really holding down that dumpster. Comedy thread?

 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Maybe people aren't happy about their Monoliths being shunted to LoW?

Maybe people are tired of Land Raiders being damn near 300 points and useless?

And you want to write it off as "comedy thread".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/06 21:57:18


   
Made in nl
Numberless Necron Warrior





Still planning on fielding mine! I think they might be old enough to drink by now. The decision to move a 24-wound 360-point giant floating death brick to the Lord of War slot wasn't really a surprise - I'm pretty sure it only stuck it out in the Heavy Support slot as long as it did for legacy reasons.

Yes, the hyperbole factor makes it quite comical.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ice_can wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
That's a really dishonest comparison.
Riptides have never been good for the firepower, but because they are extremely hard to take down.
Give the gladiators a 3++ and you bet that it will change Marine's vision of it.

Riptide is T7, 2+, 5++ and it's 275 base
Gets 12 and 8 shots

Galldiator has 24 S6 -1/-2AP 1D shots plus
8 rapid fire S4 -1/-2AP 1D for 230 points.


Still disingenuous, the Riptide's survivability comes from all the drones swarming around it. Not that those don't cost points too, but there's disproportionate value in adding ablative wounds to something like that.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




The Newman wrote:

Still disingenuous, the Riptide's survivability comes from all the drones swarming around it. Not that those don't cost points too, but there's disproportionate value in adding ablative wounds to something like that.


It's wasn't ment to be a direct comparison it was only provided as once again someone's making up base stats that units just dont have again.

The origonal post was just about the irony of the "All my new units (which compair pretty well to everyone else units) are unplayable trash and these units that haven't been anywhere in 9th edition events are OP and deserve to be nerfed" sums up the issue with a subsect of Marine posters.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/06 22:44:30


 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps




 Drachii wrote:
Still planning on fielding mine! I think they might be old enough to drink by now. The decision to move a 24-wound 360-point giant floating death brick to the Lord of War slot wasn't really a surprise .


It was to me, especially with a new kit coming. I was expecting it to come down in points and made more feasible to field, not less.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




the_scotsman wrote:
sanguine40k wrote:
Welcome to the KV128's home since pretty much the start of 8th.


If you gave me 15 guesses I could not correctly tell you what a "KV128" is.

Or even what army it's in.


Whoops, yeah - sorry!

It's the Stormsurge.

I quite like the model (not everyone does), but it is just terrible for the cost (400 ish, plus 3cp, plus no sept traits, plus no saviour protocols)...
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



NE Ohio, USA

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
Voss wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
sanguine40k wrote:
Welcome to the KV128's home since pretty much the start of 8th.


If you gave me 15 guesses I could not correctly tell you what a "KV128" is.

Tau... something, presumably. GW leaned into attaching meaningless alphanumeric codes for the various suits, but I didn't realize Tau players made conversations more difficult by actually using them.


I was thinking some form of Russian WWII tank, to be honest.


Those went as far as the KV-2, I'm afraid. Or the KV1-S, for the most amount of letters.

Germans go for word soup though - Panzerbefehlswagen III mit 5cm KwK L/42 / Sd.Kfz.141.


Don't forget the KV85, of course, even if it wasn't around for all that long.


Ah, I thought I was forgetting one, and it is technically more numbers. Well reminded!


You're also forgetting the KV-8 flamethrower tank.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





The Monolith decision is... infuriating. It was bad for years and they finally make a cool new model, give it good offensive power, yet don't give it Quantum Shielding even though it appears to have been pointed as if it did.... fine, whatever, I'll take it anyway, it'll just die fast.


Oh it's a LoW





great
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ice_can wrote:
The Newman wrote:

Still disingenuous, the Riptide's survivability comes from all the drones swarming around it. Not that those don't cost points too, but there's disproportionate value in adding ablative wounds to something like that.


It's wasn't ment to be a direct comparison it was only provided as once again someone's making up base stats that units just dont have again.

The origonal post was just about the irony of the "All my new units (which compair pretty well to everyone else units) are unplayable trash and these units that haven't been anywhere in 9th edition events are OP and deserve to be nerfed" sums up the issue with a subsect of Marine posters.


The riptide compares really really well with the gladiator even without drones. Even with the (inflated) weapon stats you used for the gladiator, the difference of being able to shoot for more than a turn, is simply too great. And no one dare start the usual "But marines have lots of buffs!", because those tanks have close to none now. Riptides win the buff game by a landslide.
   
Made in us
Noble Knight of the Realm




Louisville (KY)

Because the more that your ability to win hinges on your army construction, and the more they change what units are viable, the more you think about and buy models.

It's literally what the entire game is fundamentally designed around.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Spoletta wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
The Newman wrote:

Still disingenuous, the Riptide's survivability comes from all the drones swarming around it. Not that those don't cost points too, but there's disproportionate value in adding ablative wounds to something like that.


It's wasn't ment to be a direct comparison it was only provided as once again someone's making up base stats that units just dont have again.

The origonal post was just about the irony of the "All my new units (which compair pretty well to everyone else units) are unplayable trash and these units that haven't been anywhere in 9th edition events are OP and deserve to be nerfed" sums up the issue with a subsect of Marine posters.


The riptide compares really really well with the gladiator even without drones. Even with the (inflated) weapon stats you used for the gladiator, the difference of being able to shoot for more than a turn, is simply too great. And no one dare start the usual "But marines have lots of buffs!", because those tanks have close to none now. Riptides win the buff game by a landslide.


but but but eradicators! there see marines are evil and how dare you like Marines.

I'm curious BTW what army do you play Ice Can?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut






Yeah I bought a used original monolith after seeing the new model and...optimistically assuming they would make a good unit.

So may thinks they could have done so easily....

Maybe make it have a fortress mode that would allow it to put up a 5++ powerfield if it did not move, just for one.

Still, a 2+ save isn't bad. The list of AP4 weapons isn't huge, I looked at the new marine codex and even the premiere tankbuster, the lascannon,has an AP3. Some of the AP 4 weapons have a strength lower than the monolith's T8.

Adding in the deathray option and buffing the existing weapons was a good move, i wish they could give some necron weapons 2d3 instead of d6 shots...

If they'd left the monolioth at the old cost, it would have been a pretty easy take especially after they let it DS at 9", FINALLY!

But NNNNOO-OOOOO! They had to raise the cost. Well, ok, it was still a tempting take.

So they added 3CP to the cost.

I dunno, i paid a fair price for my monolith, it was less than a lot i see on ebay, but still it was a chunk o' change. I want to use it, but I don't know now.Maybe drop it near an objective that's worth a lotta points, like the ones that go up the longer you hold them, have it scour the enemy holding it will a full strike to keep the enemy from getting that last big points boost. Or between two objectives so it scour one and deploy units to grab another.

Or drop it between a real high point object I've just grabbed to make it hard for the enemy to make it hard for the enemy to charge at them to take them off it.

I suppose I can think of something to do with it...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/07 04:30:20


I've never watched a whole episode of Firefly. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Sledgehammer wrote:
Because the more that your ability to win hinges on your army construction, and the more they change what units are viable, the more you think about and buy models.

It's literally what the entire game is fundamentally designed around.


You're statement is correct, but for the wrong reasons, imho.

They're not picking winners or losers. They're certainly disturbing the meta and that's not always a bad thing, because stale lists make for a stale game. Should GW ever achieve excellent balance then all units are equally viable. The meta will still shake as GW is essentially required to continue to produce new models every year. New armies will appear as well as new tools and people will naturally gravitate to them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/07 05:10:20


   
Made in us
Hungry Ghoul




I love this thread.

"GW makes all of the new units OP so people have to buy them"

GW then makes the new tanks not OP.

"GW dumpster fired all of the tanks"
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
Because the more that your ability to win hinges on your army construction, and the more they change what units are viable, the more you think about and buy models.

It's literally what the entire game is fundamentally designed around.


You're statement is correct, but for the wrong reasons, imho.

They're not picking winners or losers. They're certainly disturbing the meta and that's not always a bad thing, because stale lists make for a stale game. Should GW ever achieve excellent balance then all units are equally viable. The meta will still shake as GW is essentially required to continue to produce new models every year. New armies will appear as well as new tools and people will naturally gravitate to them.




GW is 100 percent picking winners and losers, even internally to codexes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seabass wrote:
I love this thread.

"GW makes all of the new units OP so people have to buy them"

GW then makes the new tanks not OP.

"GW dumpster fired all of the tanks"


Newness only has minor correlation to what GW makes OP or not. The CEO isn't sitting over the rules writer's shoulder dictating every statblock for maximum profitability. But corporate has and likely still does hand down directives. Things like "Make wraith knights really strong" they did when those released.

And then the rules writers themselves have the models they think are super cool and they want to make cool, or the models they think are lame and want to make lame and even when they control for that bias, and they don't always do so, it will filter in.

And finally, they just make mistakes. They don't think out how a unit with good stats combos with a strategem that takes its good cost and sends it through the roof or something like this

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/07 06:32:13


 
   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

5D-chess.

GW wants people to buy Eradicators so they made their rules absolutely bonkers, but they don't actually want people destroying the game so they're also nerfing all the targets Eradicators are good against.

Everyone will buy two squads and then never actually get to use them on the tabletop.
   
Made in us
Evil Spirit of the Barrow Downs





Michigan

Mind numbing reading all this. GW is obviously just playing the hype train game, since this is now a competitive games in the eyes of most players "trash" is anything that isnt "OP lul please nerf". So they just swing some numbers around to get you buying the newest toys and selling your old crap just to re buy it 10 months later after the 15th supplement battlezone campaign book comes out.

Warhammer 40k reminds me more of a competitive MOBA or game like Overwatch at this point, nerfs and buffs revolving around new skins and players complaining. The whole time GW sucking up them juicy micro transactions (oops I meant to say two $50 space marine books in just over a year).

Im a 30k player, and I wont pretend my game isnt rife with power creep, but my lord Im glad it isnt like this yet.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Spoletta wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
The Newman wrote:

Still disingenuous, the Riptide's survivability comes from all the drones swarming around it. Not that those don't cost points too, but there's disproportionate value in adding ablative wounds to something like that.


It's wasn't ment to be a direct comparison it was only provided as once again someone's making up base stats that units just dont have again.

The origonal post was just about the irony of the "All my new units (which compair pretty well to everyone else units) are unplayable trash and these units that haven't been anywhere in 9th edition events are OP and deserve to be nerfed" sums up the issue with a subsect of Marine posters.


The riptide compares really really well with the gladiator even without drones. Even with the (inflated) weapon stats you used for the gladiator, the difference of being able to shoot for more than a turn, is simply too great. And no one dare start the usual "But marines have lots of buffs!", because those tanks have close to none now. Riptides win the buff game by a landslide.

What inflated weapon stats? Those were lifted from the datasheet, go check the preview videos with pictures of gladiator datasheets.


   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Spoletta wrote:
That's a really dishonest comparison.
Riptides have never been good for the firepower, but because they are extremely hard to take down.
Give the gladiators a 3++ and you bet that it will change Marine's vision of it.


3++ with drones to bullet spong.

Firepower is annoying. But more annoying is that removing it takes tons of effort unless opponent is very adept rolling 1's or you have fast assaulters that bypass overwatch

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
4663
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in it
Stormin' Stompa




Italy

the_scotsman wrote:
This is something I'm not seeing talked about much with the new releases, but holy actual god did GW decide that large vehicles needed to get absolutely slammed. New Gladiator tanks all over 200pts, land raiders sitting at 285 base, 300+ point repulsors, 300+ point Lord of War Monoliths, 100 point nerfs to multiple large models just months after the CA2020 points update.

It seems crazy to be shipping these kinds of changes without some kind of reduction in deadliness, which as we all know from the rampant Eradicator discussion is not happening pretty much anywhere. Vehicles are going to be taking more damage from dedicated AT weaponry but also more damage incidentally from anti-elite weaponry, which has an obnoxious tendency to just...not care about your vehicle having +1, +2, or even+3 toughness as compared to another vehicle - a heavy bolter hurts a Leman Russ the same as it hurts a T6 Goliath Truck or Taurox.

Personally I don't tend to use a whole lot of larger models in the game, but I'm surprised to see so little reaction to a whole swathe of vehicles apparently being relegated to Land Raider Hell.


As other already said, GW wants to push selling other models. At some point those vehicles, especially those whose kit was recently released, will get their buffs.

To be honest the LR was 285 even before, and with heavy weapons getting increased damage I don't think the way to go was to make vehicles cheaper, rather to give them more wounds or abilities to reduce damage. I'm pissed and extremely disappointed that the Stormfang gunship went from 250 to 360 though which is insane for a model that has 14W T7 (and degrades in BS), even with a natural -1 to hit. That's a huge points hike, and a LR looks now cheap and viable in comparison.

Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut




tneva82 wrote:
3++ with drones to bullet spong.

Firepower is annoying. But more annoying is that removing it takes tons of effort unless opponent is very adept rolling 1's or you have fast assaulters that bypass overwatch


Can only have the 3++ on one if you get the higher shots. If you ever try riptides without the higher shots, they are decidedly meh.
And since they are now 295+ points, and shield drones are 15 (okay take 10 point drones, but you can just mow them down unless there is convenient LOS blocking terrain), it feels kind of toast, like Tau in general.
   
Made in nl
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch



Netherlands

Well I'm sitting on my poor little converted beautiful vindicators, and to be honest they have started getting better and better with stealth buffs here and there going through out of nowhere.

First it got up to d6 shots.
Then it got Blast.
Then it got move + shoot with no penalty.
Now it got the siege shields back for 2+ save or 1+ while in cover, which means it saves lascannons on a 4+ now.

All while still floating relatively low on the 135 pt range.

A man can dream that at some point I will be able to put three vindis down on the table again, look my opponent in the eye and dare them to try and come midfield.

A man can dream.

14000
15000
4000 
   
Made in us
Kovnik





washington state USA

 Matt Swain wrote:
Yeah I bought a used original monolith after seeing the new model and...optimistically assuming they would make a good unit.

So may thinks they could have done so easily....

Maybe make it have a fortress mode that would allow it to put up a 5++ powerfield if it did not move, just for one.

Still, a 2+ save isn't bad. The list of AP4 weapons isn't huge, I looked at the new marine codex and even the premiere tankbuster, the lascannon,has an AP3. Some of the AP 4 weapons have a strength lower than the monolith's T8.

Adding in the deathray option and buffing the existing weapons was a good move, i wish they could give some necron weapons 2d3 instead of d6 shots...

If they'd left the monolioth at the old cost, it would have been a pretty easy take especially after they let it DS at 9", FINALLY!

But NNNNOO-OOOOO! They had to raise the cost. Well, ok, it was still a tempting take.

So they added 3CP to the cost.

I dunno, i paid a fair price for my monolith, it was less than a lot i see on ebay, but still it was a chunk o' change. I want to use it, but I don't know now.Maybe drop it near an objective that's worth a lotta points, like the ones that go up the longer you hold them, have it scour the enemy holding it will a full strike to keep the enemy from getting that last big points boost. Or between two objectives so it scour one and deploy units to grab another.

Or drop it between a real high point object I've just grabbed to make it hard for the enemy to make it hard for the enemy to charge at them to take them off it.

I suppose I can think of something to do with it...



I remember back in the day when they were beasts. i think it was 4th or 5th ed when apocalypse first came out we did a mega battle VS tyranids and the objective of the atttackers was to get to and hold the center of the table from the nids for 1 full turn. the monolith was the game winner because back then it deepstruck in and pushed everything out of it's way. and being AV 14+the old living metal rules meant it put out some decent damage while also being hard to kill.

Then again it doesn't bother our group to much what GW is pulling with 9th since we all went back to playing 40K when it was good( 5th with some house rules ) where the big flying pyramid is still super effective.

 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine






 aphyon wrote:
Welcome to the GW mad pendulum swing

in 4th non-skimmer vehicles were trash, they made them a little more survivable in 5th, then in 6th they made them paper again with hull points added to the damage chart that already existed(effectively giving them 2 damage systems that had the same results).

they are doing the same thing with the changes from 8th to 8.5 to 9th. much of it has to do with marketing new kits, or kits you need to buy many more of, or refocusing off kits that are no longer the big sellers.

People love the 40K universe, they love the minis they WANT it to be good/work, so no matter what GW does most players will still keep shoveling money at them, as long as that happens GW has no incentive to change course.

Lets face it there is no direct competition on the scale of GW even if many of the other game systems out there are better than current 40K. they just don't have the community support. and the few of us who have walked away by choosing to play 40K our way (an older edition) are the minority.


What about Star Wars Legions? I saw that played the other day and I was really impressed with what I saw. The Model quality is superb.
   
Made in gb
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




UK

The Monolith itself is actually pretty alright ruleswise. No Invun hurts, but it's still a 2+ save and a Chronomancer can give it a 5++ anyway.

What kills it is the LoW slot because GW seems to be wanting people to move away from using LoW's in 9th. And conceptually I'm actually fine with that idea, but I think at this point it would never work. People have too many big boy monsters and vehicles that they like using and don't want to them to relegated to apocalypse games only.

This is something that I could see being changed in an FAQ down the line, like how they changed the CP benefits for detachments halfway through 8th. If nobody is taking any LoW's or SHA detachments whatsoever, that's the kind of thing that gets noticed and acted upon.
   
 
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