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Made in de
Junior Officer with Laspistol






Its just a kind of random question that came up when I was thinking about some fluff.
Lets say planet A has a large population (in the hunderts of millions to few billions) and supports a relatively numerous PDF force as well as a System defense fleet with some transports. There are some neighboring systems in its vicinity, but all planets there are sparsely populated (some 10.000 humans). Now some threat comes up in these systems, be it an anti-imperial uprising, a smaller Xenos incursion yaddayadda.

Would planet A be in their right (or even expected) to precautionary deploy their PDF forces to restore imperial order as they are nearby or is there some regulation stating that PDF has to stay within their homesystem and Planet B would have to wait for the regular Guard to intervene?

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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

It would be down to the planetary governors and the sector governors. There's a lot of elements that come into play. That said a Planetary Defence Force could certainly be relocated and used on another world.

I'm sure the Imperium has, many times, swooped in and pinched one to take off on a crusade or to help defend another world.


It would be a more political, logistical and defensive choice. If that world has a huge population and thus is a key world they might not want to poach the defence force incase whilst rushing to defend the second world, the first then comes under attack.
Logistically you might not have ships on hand to move them, so now you've got to either hope some big transports are nearby or you've got to conscript mercenary and merchant fleets. This might all influence the speed, organisation and how you deploy at the other end. Indeed if you've the wrong ships you could make matters worse (eg losing too many to anti-orbital fire); or you could end up with the venture costing the world too much to undertake etc..




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Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

Depends on who's in charge of A, and how involved they want to be - if there's priests, commissars, etc. around they'd get sent in. The PDF would probably be 'activated' to Guard status, sent in and then return home. The Eisenhorn short "Missing in Action" deals with ex-Guard who returned home after fighting Chaos in a neighbouring system.
   
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

beast_gts wrote:
Depends on who's in charge of A, and how involved they want to be - if there's priests, commissars, etc. around they'd get sent in. The PDF would probably be 'activated' to Guard status, sent in and then return home. The Eisenhorn short "Missing in Action" deals with ex-Guard who returned home after fighting Chaos in a neighbouring system.

Except that's the keyword there:
"Ex-Guard".

Planetary Defense Forces are where the Guard recruit from. They don't flip a switch and suddenly become Guardsmen. They're two different organizations.

To answer the OP?
Maybe? The Gaunt's Ghosts book "Necropolis" has mention of a Northern Collective PDF officer that fought offworld...but only so far as the moon of the planet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/08 20:33:31


 
   
Made in it
Regular Dakkanaut




In every real war that kind of auxiliary armies where often used to help the professional forces, maybe they weren't used on the front line, but they could maintain the order in the zones behind the front and in cases of necessity they could became an useful reinforcement. So why shouldn't the Empire do the same thing with the Planet Defence Forces?

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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Because planetary defense forces are specific to the planet in question.

When they need to get reinforcements or the like? They do new Foundings of Guard Regiments.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Suffice it to say if the regular Guard are not around the PDF could certainly be used to step in. The real issue would be political and logistical as noted above.

A fleet of the Imperium coming to muster regiments would have its own transports and space craft capable of getting troops off the ground and down on ground in other star systems. A Planetary Governor likely doesn't have need for such a fleet of ships and thus would have to rely on what they could hire locally. They'd likely have major issues logistically.



Another question would be the training of the PDF. Gaunts Ghosts shows that local planetside training can be really good; but it could also be that PDF troops on otherwise peaceful worlds are little more than armoured police. Ergo they might have weapons and armour, but they'd lack actual proper battle experience. Not just at the rank and file, but up in the higher command elements too. So you'd be throwing a very green block of infantry up against the enemy

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Regular Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
Because planetary defense forces are specific to the planet in question.

When they need to get reinforcements or the like? They do new Foundings of Guard Regiments.


That means the Empire should recruit new soldiers, train them and equip them before to use them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/08 20:50:17


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Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

Though they might well be a bit of an exception - because of how well trained they are, plus there generally being less need for them to stay home than your average Imperial world - the Ultramar PDF regularly gets shipped out to different systems.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
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Dakka Veteran




 Super Ready wrote:
Though they might well be a bit of an exception - because of how well trained they are, plus there generally being less need for them to stay home than your average Imperial world - the Ultramar PDF regularly gets shipped out to different systems.


Part of that will be because they all work for the leader of the Ultramarines and this question in general I think comes down to one of jurisdiction.

There’s a number of stories where the local PDF will go fight on a moon, or other nearby body that comes under the same Imperial Governor. Going off to other planets will depend I think not just on logistics as mentioned above but also the relationships between governors. Two governors on good terms might help each other out, and obviously somewhere like Ultramar with a higher level commander they can order pdfs about across their wider domain as required. But otherwise governors may get leery of others ‘interfering’ in their domain, or even third parties making accusations of a ‘power grab’ which would mean waiting for the Guard instead.
   
Made in de
Junior Officer with Laspistol






Thanks for all the answers so far. I think for the scenario I had in mind it would be OK then.

If you are interested:
I have a homebrew regiment from a civilized world with quite some tribal culture (as I liked to have different tribal minis in my army). The border between regiment and PDF is more or less fluent in the sense that the regiment is not one of the best trained or equiped Guard regiments, while the PDF on the other hand is - for a planetary defense force - relatively good, so the difference is quite slim. Their homeplanet is by far the most populated in their immediate sub-sub-sector, surrounded by some systems with feudal and feral worlds with only a couple of thousands to a million inhabitants each. So they basically got permission to take up recruits from those smaller worlds and integrate them in their own regiment as none of those can really tithe something like a whole, functioning regiment on their own (that is basically my explanation for including tribal minis from whichever cultural background I feel like).
=> so there is already a trusting relationship with these planets.

Now I think if in this situation one of these planets suffer an incursion with a minor threat Level like a bunch of space pirates or so (so too big for "Iroquoise-themed-planet-with-20.000-inhabitants" to deal with but not big enough that the Munitorum would have it high enough on their priority to officially send a regiment there), the rulers of my homebrew system could say "OK, our own regiments are either off-world or on standby, waiting for orders, but we have some dozen Million PDF and enough trading/SDF ships to shuttle some 100.000 over there. Or else we loose a potential recruiting ground.". As far as I understand the response might be the Iroquoise Governour could protest for the intervening in his business (unlikely if they save his hide), but as long as they don't mess with what is due for Terra (the Regiment stays on standby and they don't mess with another planets tithe), the Imperium would not mind, right?

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Made in se
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator






The short answer is yes, it is allowed. The long answer is more complicated, as many have already pointed out in this thread. I guess a general guideline of if it’s in the planetary governors interest to do so works.

As a side note, the pdf jurisdiction area extend to the planets orbits. Space stations and such. Though depending on the station it might be the Imperial navy that provide its defensive forces.

His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary. 
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







Coming from the other side, to what extent would governor expect a visit by the inquisition if they were in a position to defend the holy Imperium, but chose not to.

A lot is made of the Imperiums ability to gradually mobilise more and more resources until a threat is dealt with. While they are called PDF they are basically the local first line of defence. Also if something does start to kick off I a local system there are all kinds of imperial.agents with the authority to deputise troops of any stripe and take them off to deal with a threat in a nearby system. An Imperial.Governor would need to be very sure of themselves before denying such an agent use of their pdf troops in the defence of the Imperium.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/09 07:43:34


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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

One thing you notice when reading the Inquisitor novels (Eisnhorn and Ravenor series) is that the power of an Inquisitor varies a lot. Some will command fleets and swoop in declaring themselves the voice of the Emperor and will demand obedience and expect it - whilst being backed up with a lot of guns.

Others operate on a much smaller squad level and, whilst they have significant resources and technical political power, they are more realistic in their ability to force compliance.


In short an Inquisitor could command and conscript a PDF force and ships in orbit for transport. They can, on paper, issue the orders. If its a core world well established that doesn't want to rock the boat of the Imperium and is within easy reach of the main Inquisition forces and higher ranks they likely will obey.

If its a world right on the edge far from anyone and mostly not all that important, well, they could drop the Inquisitor in a very deep well and pray no one notices. Even if they are not corrupted by Chaos, natural greed or self interest or the simple fact that the Inquisition is playing the long/large game which might sacrifice the defence of a world for the good of the Imperium; whilst the Governor might be playing a tighter game to protect their own world.

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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Overread wrote:
One thing you notice when reading the Inquisitor novels (Eisnhorn and Ravenor series) is that the power of an Inquisitor varies a lot. Some will command fleets and swoop in declaring themselves the voice of the Emperor and will demand obedience and expect it - whilst being backed up with a lot of guns.

Others operate on a much smaller squad level and, whilst they have significant resources and technical political power, they are more realistic in their ability to force compliance.



\
And I suspect many take a mix of the two approuchs situation depending

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Battleship Captain




 Super Ready wrote:
Though they might well be a bit of an exception - because of how well trained they are, plus there generally being less need for them to stay home than your average Imperial world - the Ultramar PDF regularly gets shipped out to different systems.


Ultramar is a bit of an exception because the defence auxillia is organised on a regional, not system, level. It's not strictly a true PDF.

A PDF regiment sent offworld would exactly 'flip a switch and become guard' - the guard often recruits from PDF but in many cases it's a case of 'this is now a guard regiment. The reason a 'deployed' regiment must count as guard not PDF is that it answers to the Segmentum Munitorium command, not the governor of its home system, because a lord-governor's authority stops dead at the edge of their star system.

Equally, an SDF doesn't have transports - or rather it does, but an SDF doesn't have warp capable ship's, only system ships and monitors.

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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






I've been reading the Ciaphas Cain novels and short stories lately. In them PDF stay on their planets, and Cain and others in the IG consider them the dregs. If they were any good, they would have been conscripted into a proper IG regiment. This is not entirely fair; but Cain and the Guard officers have certain prejudices. As author Sandy Mitchell has set it up, a large body of people are conscripted and given basic training. The best ones have the dubious honor of serving in a IG regiment and shipped off-world, probably never to see home again, and die in a horrible fashion. The remainder who passed and did not wash out are now part of the PDF; where they get gakky jobs, but are still on their home-world with friends and family, and nothing eats them immediately. (But later, when Mr. Mitchell needs a plot point ...) Still, some of the reason the PDF aren't as good as regular Guard is equipment, not training. Tactical coordination is much easier when all troops in a unit have comm-beads. The PDF as Mitchell depicts them have one guy with a radio (vox-caster) next to the unit leader, and everything else comes down to voice, hand-signals, and runners. Sure that's how it was done in WW2, but this is the 41st Millenia: the PDF could be better equipped.

In the Third Battle for Armageddon rulebook which came out for 3rd ed. W40K, the rules for the Armageddon PDF reduced some of the standard IG options since those were considered "specialized" and only open to regiments going on off-world service. This included all abhuman units, and some of the Leman Russ variants. You could use Hive Gang Militia: basically hive gangers who got press-ganged into a forlorn hope and tossed in front of the orks. (They were still selling 1st ed Necromunda figures through the GW mail order at the time, and wanted you to buy and convert them ...)

In the end, it is your take that is important. You've paid for your figures. Paint they as you like, and give them the background you want.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/10 04:19:38


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