Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

How do!

Another proper chit chat discussion topic for your delectation. And in this thread I’m looking to sound out what you consider to be a workhorse combination of Strength and AP on a weapon. As in, it’s neither quite Arthur nor Martha, but can be effective against the widest range of possible targets.

In my inexperienced mind, S5, -2 holds a certain appeal. Even if like Gauss Reapers it’s packing a mere Damage 1, it’s still a gun which poses a threat to pretty much everything in the game.

I mean, it’s wounding most (all?) vehicles on a 5+, and isn’t typically bothered by Invulnerable saves. Even more so as so far as I can tell, S5 -2 typically comes with a healthy volume of fire. And it’s wound most infantry on a 3+. This is of course without allowing for modifiers and re-rolls.

In short, S5 -2 to me feels like a reasonable choice against all targets.

But this is me, Plebby McPlebface speaking. You’ve almost certainly got more knowledge and experience, so I want to hear you weigh on.

S5 AP-2 feels like a sweet spot that's certainly desirable... but strong enough that making it available to Core/Troops units of most factions would swing the game to being too lethal. It's fine on things like Custodes, who are few in number, or Tau where they're absolutely useless at doing anything other than shooting.

I think we should include Damage in this conversation as well. With Marines going up to 2W, Chaos Marines tipped to follow when they get their Codex, and a probable smattering of extra Wounds here and there for other factions' characters and so on - D2 weapons are going to become more valuable.

S5 and AP2 (not necessarily together) are the breakpoints between "standard" and "good" for each value in modern 40k. There was a time when S3 and AP 0 (or the equivalent of what that was in the older systems) were the standard values, but that feels like a long time ago now.

I will sing the praises of Grav Cannons at S5 -3 D2 4 shots. It kills everything very nicely, outperforming Lascannons against vehicles and Heavy Bolters against infantry. The four shots means that it can get past the 5+ against higher toughness by virtue of shots, as two 5+s equals one 3+ (.333 x 2 = .666).

S5, AP2/3 and 2D is really really good.

 Super Ready wrote:
S5 AP-2 feels like a sweet spot that's certainly desirable... but strong enough that making it available to Core/Troops units of most factions would swing the game to being too lethal. It's fine on things like Custodes, who are few in number, or Tau where they're absolutely useless at doing anything other than shooting.

I think we should include Damage in this conversation as well. With Marines going up to 2W, Chaos Marines tipped to follow when they get their Codex, and a probable smattering of extra Wounds here and there for other factions' characters and so on - D2 weapons are going to become more valuable.

I’d argue that certainly for basic Infantry, Damage 1 is fine and dandy on S5 AP-2, due to the likely volume of shots. Certainly I’ve just glanced back at my Necron Codex, then at my collection, and giggled as I can field 40 Gauss Reapers and 20 Gauss Blasters for not a huge amount of points. I mean, theoretically that’s a grand total of 120 such shots in a given turn (though in reality that perfect turn would be quite rare, particularly as the Reapers have a mere 12” range).

For Heavy and Special Weapons? Yes, Damage 2, or even D3 is going to be an important consideration as to just how sweet the S5 Ap-2 sweet spot is going to be - even if it comes with a reliably solid number of shots!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I will sing the praises of Grav Cannons at S5 -3 D2 4 shots. It kills everything very nicely, outperforming Lascannons against vehicles and Heavy Bolters against infantry. The four shots means that it can get past the 5+ against higher toughness by virtue of shots, as two 5+s equals one 3+ (.333 x 2 = .666).

S5, AP2/3 and 2D is really really good.

A very solid example indeed. Though I’d argue -2 is maybe sweeter than -3, simply because -2 cares less for mid to high end Invulnerable saves. And by that I mean it feels less wasteful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The 5+ to wound most vehicles isn’t exactly something to plan your anti-vehicle options around, sure.

But, when it comes to blasting off those last few wounds, and when you absolutely positively must kill that melon farmer? S5 AP-2 sure feels like a nice back up plan!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


A very solid example indeed. Though I’d argue -2 is maybe sweeter than -3, simply because -2 cares less for mid to high end Invulnerable saves. And by that I mean it feels less wasteful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The 5+ to wound most vehicles isn’t exactly something to plan your anti-vehicle options around, sure.

But, when it comes to blasting off those last few wounds, and when you absolutely positively must kill that melon farmer? S5 AP-2 sure feels like a nice back up plan!

That extra -1 AP is basically free. You get an extra shot, an extra AP, and only get D2 vs things that you'd... need the extra AP against. For the same price. The only difference is that HB is D2 all the time, Gravs are only D2 on the models they usually need it for.

My Blight launchers have replaced most plasmaguns, S6, Ap-2 and D3 damage is nice against most things. They're also Assault and wounding most things on 3's rerolling ones (or everything with the proper Warlord) is nice to have. I'm hoping they don't get nerfed with the new Codex

*goes over the "list" of units with AP-3 or better cannons in the Nid codex*

Two and some blind point-blank Carnifex vomit that can't be used in combat.

-1 is nice in the Nid world. -2 is on the anti-tank duty, -3 is "out of stock" all the damn time.

Str 5 is a bit too good right now.

If i could change one thing atm to help balance the game it would be to change the wound chart.

I would change it like so:

Strength is +3 or -3 goes to wounding on 2's or 6's instead of the current +2 ot 6+ on double.

So basically, if your attack is 3 strength over the toughness it wounds on 2+. If Toughness is +3 over the strength its wound on 6+.


Would make T8 worth something again and make str 7 weaponry wound most infantry on 2+ (like it should).


I would also have it so that if your strength is 6 higher than the toughness you get a +1 to wound modifier (to counter any -1 to wound stuff).

 Super Ready wrote:
I think we should include Damage in this conversation as well. With Marines going up to 2W, Chaos Marines tipped to follow when they get their Codex, and a probable smattering of extra Wounds here and there for other factions' characters and so on - D2 weapons are going to become more valuable.

I really love the Drukhari's Disintegrator Cannons right now, even though they've gone up to 25 points.

Assault 3, Strength 5, AP -3, Damage 2. Pretty much tailor-made to kill Marines. I wish infantry could use them as heavy weapons (just like Dark Lances), but you can only mount them on vehicles.