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First off, I am aware of Daemons of the Ruinstorm from 30k. I, unfortunately, lack knowledge about them beyond their existence, so by all means, enlighten me on them! There's bound to be some good ideas to crib off them.

Second of all, what can be done in 40k to make more generic Daemons units? Like Furies, Soul Grinders, and Princes. Units available to all gods, and preferably ones that you can customize pretty well.

Spawn from the CSM codex with a better movement would be a good place to start

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Spawn from the CSM codex with a better movement would be a good place to start

Excellent idea.

Though looking at my CSM Dex, they're a little beefier than I'm looking for. Definitely too good to be a base for Lesser Daemons, for instance.

The Ruinstorm list is convoluted; I love it, but most of it wouldn't translate well into 9e. I'll summarize and see if you can get some inspiration from them.

Army-wide stuff:
-Daemon rule: 5++, Fear, mostly Fearless. If a Daemon unit would fail morale in melee or take perils when casting a power they instead roll Perils, on a 1 they get set to WS/BS/I 1 and take d3 wounds, on a 2-5 they take d3 wounds, and on a 6 they get +1 WS/BS/I and get extra warp charge.
-Deployment: The whole army starts in Reserves and may begin rolling for Reserves on turn one. A primary detachment of Daemons gets three warp rifts (5" blast markers) that count as table edge, an allied detachment gets one.
-Tides of Madness: Everything here has +1 S/T on turn 1-2, -1 S/T on turns 5-6, and -2S/T if the game continues past turn 6.

Emanations of Horror: Gifts of Chaos. These are unit upgrades that let you customize units to do specific things. These are mostly weapons (ranged weapons have a user-based Strength so they degrade on later turns, and are frequently only used by a fraction of the unit), but also include upgrading to 3+ armour, getting the Jump type, or imitating offensive/defensive grenades. They're generally either limited to two or three per unit.

Aetheric Dominions: There are six at present; one for undivided, one for each of the four major gods, and one for daemon-killing daemons. Each one changes your access to Emanations of Horror, has its own Warlord Trait table, grants some additional detachment-wide benefit, and allows you to voluntarily replace the primary objective of the mission you were playing with your own (though the other player is still stuck with normal objectives).

Units: The actual profiles; these are mostly just stats/types and have almost no rules/weapons without upgrades:
-HQs:
--Daemon Lord: T6/6W MC, option for flight, option for 0-3 T6/3W bodyguards. They get to come in turn one automatically.
--Greater Daemon: T6/5W MC, can't fly and can't have bodyguards.
--Chosen: Generic infantry HQ. No mounts, unfortunately.
--Ka'Bandha, Samus, Cor'bax: Named characters. Extra rules, no options, won't go into detail here.

-Elites:
--Brutes: 3-6 of the T6/3W guys who bodyguard for Daemon Lords. They can still choose to arrive turn one.

-Troops:
--Lesser Daemons: 5-20. Nasty profile (T4/2W/4+ base).
--Daemon Beasts: 3-10, T5/2W, represents things like Fiends and Beasts of Nurgle.
--Swarms: 3-10, generic swarm body.
--Possessed: 10-20 regular or Astartes goons. They aren't really Daemons, don't use the Warp Rifts, and can't score objectives, but the Daemons keep them around since they can haul special weapons and start on the table.

-Fast Attack:
--Daemon Cavalry: Expensive speedy Lesser Daemons. Largely pointless in the current implementation since it'd be cheaper to just take Lessers with wings.
--Shrike: Flying MC with a slightly weaker profile than the HQ monsters.

-Heavy Support:
--Greater Daemon Beast: T6/4W MC that comes in squads of 1-3.
--Daemon Behemoth: T7/10W giant MC

-LoW:
--Arch-Daemon: T8/10W with its own special list of super-Gifts

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Spawn from the CSM codex with a better movement would be a good place to start

I will note that chaos spawn aren't quite daemons. Unless things have changed, they used to not have the daemon rule. Fluff-wise, they're just what happens when a mortal's body has mutated really thoroughly or has entered a state of shoggothy constant mutation with a broken mind to match. Not that they can't be looked at for reference.

I feel like "generic" daemons, as in the myriad randos that aren't associated with any particular god or theme, would probably just have kind of dull rules. Furies sort of cover them thematically. You wouldn't expect "generic" daemons to hit harder than bloodletters, run faster than daemonettes, take a hit better than a plague bearer, or be more sorcerous than horrors, for instance. So with that in mind, I'd suggest making units that do lean into a theme and maybe even serve a chaos god, just not one of the big four.

Just some top of my head ideas:
* Doubt daemons: use something akin to GSC blip deployment. Units near them can't benefit from auras.
* Warp Portals: infilltrating, immobile fortifications that can reinforce wounded units. Can move and/or suck up enemies as stratagems.
* Khymarae: the drukhari unit. In some fluff, they're (non-daemonic) warp entities that feed off of fear. Let them reinforce when an enemy fails a morale test near them as a strat.
* Dryads: daemonic beings that possess the environment around you. Make them hard to hurt when not on terrain, and make them killy when they are on terrain.
* Djinn: daemons that interact with tech. Give them a weak shooting attack that basically makes enemy weapons get hot. Give them a stratagem or psychic power that lets them possess enemy vehicles.
* The Tormented: mortals who have seen too much. The daemons keep them around to bask in (and feed on) their suffering. Characters that give nearby daemon units a -1 to morale tests. (As in you're less likely to fail the test and more likely to get daemons back if you have the right wargear.)

I love the ruinstorm army list in 30k and have a game with it this sunday (my fourth since it dropped, thanks COVID).
Anomander got the basics of the list, so here is an example of how to build a generic unit into a specific one:

Essentially, a unit is a default statline (e.g. all Lesser Daemons are essentially the same basic statline) - for lesser daemons, this basic statline is 12ppm, so it's very beefy (roughly the same as a Space Marine Legionnaire in terms of points cost but with 0 guns). This statline fluctuates over the course of the game, starting out very strong and then weakening in later turns, which is a unique mechanic that represents the Daemon's hold on reality slowly fading away.

Now, from that base statline, your first modification that applies to your whole army is your Aetheric Dominion. As Anomander explained, the Aetheric Dominions are essentially which Chaos God you owe allegiance to; there's the Big Four, Malal, and Undivided (the 6 he mentioned). I play the Lurid Onslaught, which is Slaanesh. Each Aetheric Dominion comes with its own special rule and drawbacks (e.g. the Lurid Onslaught gets Hit and Run on every unit in the detachment, but in trade cannot benefit from a cover save except Jink). They also adjust your future options (e.g. Lurid Onslaught can take the Stupefying Musk emenation). Because the Aetheric Dominion is both a boon and a curse, it costs no points. It does also give you your list of Warlord Traits and a nice optional objective (so your Daemons do something other than mill around on Hill 356 or whatever if you want).

The next level of customization beyond God allegiance is what the Daemons in the unit actually do. These are called Emanations of Horror, and there are all sorts of them, from Corrosive Vomit to Crushing Claws, Miasma of Rot to the aforementioned Stupefying Musk, Brass Collars to Rift Barbs, Quicksilver Speed to Warp-scaled Hide, Molten Blood to Shroud of Darkness - well, you get the idea I hope. Specific callouts go to Lord of Sorcery, which makes Daemons psychic (since they start out not-psychic), Daemonic Wings, which give you jump or jump monstrous creature, and the ones that grant shooting attacks (rift-barb is hilarious for anti-tank at times).

Each of those Emanations costs a different amount of points-per-model depending on what model is taking it (representing the significant differences in effectiveness between a Lesser Daemon having something and a Greater Daemon or Daemon Lord having something) and is where the unit customization really shines. NOTE: The Arch-Daemon lord of war option has its own set of Emanations that are dramatically more powerful (and costly pointswise) than the normal Daemon emanations.

Here's a Lurid Onslaught Lesser Daemons unit (i.e. Daemonettes):
Crushing Claws - Rending on all CC attacks; a Daemonette staple
Stupefying Musk - the Slaanesh- or Undivided-only ability that reduces enemy Initiative on an LD check (and gives you VP in the Lurid Onslaught army list)
Quicksilver Speed - Fleet and Move Through Cover (self-explanatory I hope)

I might build Plaguebearers with the following:
Shroud of Darkness - Enemies don't get the bonus attack for charging them.
Miasma of Rot - -1 Toughness or AV for being locked in combat with them
Corrosive Vomit - a flamer template that 1/3rd of the models can shoot with in any given phase which is Strength: User, AP5 and has the Soul Blaze special rule.

Etc.

Wyldhunt wrote:
...I feel like "generic" daemons, as in the myriad randos that aren't associated with any particular god or theme, would probably just have kind of dull rules. Furies sort of cover them thematically. You wouldn't expect "generic" daemons to hit harder than bloodletters, run faster than daemonettes, take a hit better than a plague bearer, or be more sorcerous than horrors, for instance. So with that in mind, I'd suggest making units that do lean into a theme and maybe even serve a chaos god, just not one of the big four...

Which is where the "toolbox" approach of the Ruinstorm list comes in. If you design Daemons the way GW does adding more Chaos Gods just gives you another tiny one-dimensional sub-faction without enough units that doesn't talk to anyone else, the Ruinstorm list lets you build a bunch of different kinds of Daemons for whatever Chaos God you're using. Add more Emanations of Horror and you can make more "Chaos Gods", but you have the whole giant combinatorial set of different units to play around with whichever god you're using.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
...I feel like "generic" daemons, as in the myriad randos that aren't associated with any particular god or theme, would probably just have kind of dull rules. Furies sort of cover them thematically. You wouldn't expect "generic" daemons to hit harder than bloodletters, run faster than daemonettes, take a hit better than a plague bearer, or be more sorcerous than horrors, for instance. So with that in mind, I'd suggest making units that do lean into a theme and maybe even serve a chaos god, just not one of the big four...

Which is where the "toolbox" approach of the Ruinstorm list comes in. If you design Daemons the way GW does adding more Chaos Gods just gives you another tiny one-dimensional sub-faction without enough units that doesn't talk to anyone else, the Ruinstorm list lets you build a bunch of different kinds of Daemons for whatever Chaos God you're using. Add more Emanations of Horror and you can make more "Chaos Gods", but you have the whole giant combinatorial set of different units to play around with whichever god you're using.

Well, I was picturing the the minor god units as working more like auxiliaries/mercenaries. They might not get the benefits of the big four, but they also wouldn't prevent your other units from receiving them. So the doubt daemons I pitched might be fluffed as "servants of the the Prince of Despair," but I'm not pitching introducing a 5th god with all the mutual exclusions and limitations the big 4 impose on each other.

And something like the "djinn" I pitched could be god agnostic. They're just spooky light flickering boys that set teenagers up for their visit to the cabin in the woods.

I don't have any first-hand experience with the Ruinstorm rules, so this is just me looking at the concept on paper. However, I sort of get the impression that the toolbox as described basically just lets you fill in gaps when playing monogod by kind of stepping on other existing units' toes a bit. So bloodletters with 3+ armor saves are tougher than usual meaning they get to lean into the role of "tough guys" normally filled by Nurgly units. They're "tough" in a different way than plague bearers, sure, but they make nurgle units a bit less special. Winged blood letters let you keep up with daemonettes, eating into their speed gimmick.

There's nothing wrong with that really, but it seems like you're kind of just allowing a given unit to fill a niche already inhabited by a different unit. It's late, so maybe this is a terrible analogy, but it seems a bit like allowing my dire avengers to all take power swords and banshee masks. Do banshees still do the melee job better? Sure. Does it kind of make banshees a bit less special if other aspects can just take their signature gear? Probably. Is it going to be a problem if someone just really, really likes the idea of dire avengers with power swords? Not really.

On the contrary, I feel like the Daemons of the Ruinstorm list breaks what has become "typical."

Nurgle Daemons aren't "tough". That's an archetype GW built for them, but rather they're a complex array of corrosion, rot, and disgusting vileness. The only reason "tough" is nurgle's shtick is because GW couldn't find a better way to translate that to the tabletop.

Conversely, 3+ saves on Bloodletters is not only a historical thing that used to be the case for real Bloodletters in 40k (look up Brass Armor of Khorne), but also represents a totally different thing from Nurgle. It represents being girded and arrayed for battle - after all, it's brass armor. How Khornate!!

So don't get the aspects of the Gods confused with the way GW has translated them into 40k. Nurgle is not the god of toughness; it's just that GW doesn't really get how to replicate Nurgle on the tabletop very well, so instead they just say "well, zombies are tough, maybe nurgle is like that".

Conversely, Khorne and Slaanesh are much more than stabby, and Tzeench is much more than magicky.

That's why I like the Ruinstorm list. Nurgle Daemons don't have to be "tough" - they can, instead, be any vision you have for them. Including, if you wish, toughness - after all, they can get a 3+ just like the Khornate bois. Slaanesh Daemons don't have to be fast - they can instead be seductive and powerful, taking advantage of the Stupefying Musk rule and earning VPs by making the enemy fail leadership checks, feasting on their despair. Tzeench is not required to be wholly magical, and the infinite forms of his daemons can be replicated here whether psychic or not; if nothing is mandatory, everything is mutable. Khorne can be more than just stabby murderboi; instead he can have serried ranks of heavy troopers that rival Astartes in discipline and skill, or he can have furious hordes of unupgraded anger that boil forwards in an unstoppable tide...

get GW out of your head, this is FW baby

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
On the contrary, I feel like the Daemons of the Ruinstorm list breaks what has become "typical."

Nurgle Daemons aren't "tough". That's an archetype GW built for them, but rather they're a complex array of corrosion, rot, and disgusting vileness. The only reason "tough" is nurgle's shtick is because GW couldn't find a better way to translate that to the tabletop.

Conversely, 3+ saves on Bloodletters is not only a historical thing that used to be the case for real Bloodletters in 40k (look up Brass Armor of Khorne), but also represents a totally different thing from Nurgle. It represents being girded and arrayed for battle - after all, it's brass armor. How Khornate!!

So don't get the aspects of the Gods confused with the way GW has translated them into 40k. Nurgle is not the god of toughness; it's just that GW doesn't really get how to replicate Nurgle on the tabletop very well, so instead they just say "well, zombies are tough, maybe nurgle is like that".

Conversely, Khorne and Slaanesh are much more than stabby, and Tzeench is much more than magicky.

That's why I like the Ruinstorm list. Nurgle Daemons don't have to be "tough" - they can, instead, be any vision you have for them. Including, if you wish, toughness - after all, they can get a 3+ just like the Khornate bois. Slaanesh Daemons don't have to be fast - they can instead be seductive and powerful, taking advantage of the Stupefying Musk rule and earning VPs by making the enemy fail leadership checks, feasting on their despair. Tzeench is not required to be wholly magical, and the infinite forms of his daemons can be replicated here whether psychic or not; if nothing is mandatory, everything is mutable. Khorne can be more than just stabby murderboi; instead he can have serried ranks of heavy troopers that rival Astartes in discipline and skill, or he can have furious hordes of unupgraded anger that boil forwards in an unstoppable tide...

get GW out of your head, this is FW baby

people that never played a truly customizable force like that will not understand ...

god i miss my militia.....
Still, it would allow also to delve deeper into the minor chaos deities , like, Aquish, malal, etc. AND most importantly it allows the player to do it in a manner they want.

I don't know. One would think only the more major units would be tied to any of the gods (major or minor) at all. The more lesser they are (like Furies or Spawn), the less likely they would be actively tied to them.