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I thought I would share a few of the KS projects I have recently backed with some great and very inexpensive STL packs for terrain and minis. I would like to see what others have recently backed and especially if they are still ongoing for anyone to jump in.

Kingdom of Thamarya | 3D Printable Fantasy City & Monsters - ends 11/13: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/castnplay/kingdom-of-thamarya-3d-printable-fantasy-city-and-monsters
Oar's Rest town terrain - ends 11/21: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/augustmcdaniel/oars-rest
Undead pack by Mad Goblin Miniatures, D&D and tabletop games - ends 11/29: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/madgoblinminiatures/undead-pack-by-mad-goblin-miniatures-dandd-and-tabletop-games

I REALLY like this one, but just do not need another army to build/paint: Armies of the Sands - ends 11/21: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/txarlifactory/armies-of-the-sands

And, just got the creator of the Undead pack to agree to create alternative Zombie heads in place of the Skeleton heads - only need about $300 more to fund with 18 days to go, so hope we make it - they look like really great undead warrior sculpts with some ancient hag sculpts and all of the cemetery scenery all for about $12.

Here is a pic of the new heads, which I think came out awesome.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/madgoblinminiatures/undead-pack-by-mad-goblin-miniatures-dandd-and-tabletop-games/description

Did post this the other day in a different thread, but worth a repost as it enters the last couple of days. Even if the 1v1 dueling game isn't your cup of tea, the value in this one is nuts, In addition to the 30-odd fighters there's some background characters that are perfect townsfolk/NPC types, a few sets of modular terrain, some unique bases, a dragon and probably more to come in the final push.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1281971555/pit-fighter-blood-on-the-sands/description

The Pit Fighter models do look great!! And you get a neat little arena to fight in!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/txarlifactory/armies-of-the-sands
I'd like to reinforce the Army of the Sands one mentioned above. It's really excellent value for money at under thirty quid for so very many Tomb Kings sculpts.

Yeah, that AotS KS is REALLY tugging at me. My Mantic Basileans and WGF Samurai unfinished armies along with my 3 games being developed and printed are just crying for attention!

 Ketara wrote:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/txarlifactory/armies-of-the-sands
I'd like to reinforce the Army of the Sands one mentioned above. It's really excellent value for money at under thirty quid for so very many Tomb Kings sculpts.

That's some cool mojo.

Another entertaining stl here

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/culverinmodels/scrapwar-machines-of-destruction?ref=android_project_share

Ultra orkish mega vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also there are 44 stl based kickstarters currently on going covering historical, fantasy, modern, cyberpunk and more future sci fi. And robot insects... of course....

None are currently of major interest to me, but Heresylabs has just sent out a preview of Tau based infantry, including some awesome looking human auxiliaries and kroot. I shall watch with interest.

Jesus that's an overpriced Kickstarter. I'd pay £15 all in and not feel ripped off, but £35 for the early bird and £55 for the regular? Christ, I could just subscribe to Gearguts for two months and I'd get both more and better stuff.

A rather nice looking set of high medieval/brettonian knights. Super complicated and busy models, but the look pretty swanky.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1115856510/kingdom-of-mercia-pre-supported-stl-files?ref=android_project_share

Lots of other pictures including some pegasus and hippogryph riders, but I'm lazy so just posting the bog standard knights.

Here's one for historical roman minis.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/joinordie/march-to-hell-rome

These guys did a WW2 campaign recently that went nuts with how many different factions got added to it through stretch goals. This one seems to be going the same way considering it just started 2 days ago and has already unlocked a third faction.

 Ketara wrote:
Jesus that's an overpriced Kickstarter. I'd pay £15 all in and not feel ripped off, but £35 for the early bird and £55 for the regular? Christ, I could just subscribe to Gearguts for two months and I'd get both more and better stuff.

You do understand that artists need to be paid fairly for their work right? That's extremely underpriced. It often takes hundreds of hours for developing a miniature line. That includes electricity bills. Taxation, and the staggering cost of the programs. The market is oversaturated with people willing to work for nothing because they don't have an overhead.

As someone who knows the industry from the inside it costs on average around 200 to 7000 to pay for sculpting for commercial use. It's disturbing to me that you value hundred of hours of work less than a 1$ an hour. It costs on average around 10$ for a game skin dlc. Yet you're unwilling to pay for greater value? The likelihood is that artists will be ripped off and have their product put online for free. Because you can't watermark a 3D mesh.

Artist need to wise up and start calling out the bad actors in the industry. Which many of us doing now. Pay artists fairly their work.

From a professional 3D modeller. It should star with the customers to be honest. Just because it's a digital product doesn't mean that they lack value.

Do you really think that people like me aren't entitled to make a living wage?

Tripple the price and it would be fair.

While I agree that a price race to the bottom is hurting artists, especially in the digital field where everyone competes on the same market and artists living where living expenses are low can undercut others to the point of unsustainability... that particular kickstarter looks like one weekend's work.

Bayonet&Ricochet wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
Jesus that's an overpriced Kickstarter. I'd pay £15 all in and not feel ripped off, but £35 for the early bird and £55 for the regular? Christ, I could just subscribe to Gearguts for two months and I'd get both more and better stuff.

You do understand that artists need to be paid fairly for their work right? That's extremely underpriced. It often takes hundreds of hours for developing a miniature line. That includes electricity bills. Taxation, and the staggering cost of the programs. The market is oversaturated with people willing to work for nothing because they don't have an overhead.

As someone who knows the industry from the inside it costs on average around 200 to 7000 to pay for sculpting for commercial use. It's disturbing to me that you value hundred of hours of work less than a 1$ an hour. It costs on average around 10$ for a game skin dlc. Yet you're unwilling to pay for greater value? The likelihood is that artists will be ripped off and have their product put online for free. Because you can't watermark a 3D mesh.

Artist need to wise up and start calling out the bad actors in the industry. Which many of us doing now. Pay artists fairly their work.

From a professional 3D modeller. It should star with the customers to be honest. Just because it's a digital product doesn't mean that they lack value.

Do you really think that people like me aren't entitled to make a living wage?

Tripple the price and it would be fair.

Look at it from a business perspective rather than a 'I'd like people to pay me' one.

Gearguts is one 3d modeller on his own. In the space of one month, he usually turns out several vehicle kits, several infantry sets, and a handful of characters. That's one man, working full time, for a month. He's not drawing on a backlog, that's his literal output every month. As of writing, he charges £8.50 a month, has 403 patrons, and pulls in £2754 a month (sans taxes and Patreon cut). His kits are a little rough and ready (he himself says he always prefers to me moving onto the next big thing), but they're of tolerable, if crude quality.
That's the competition. One guy, working hard.

The kickstarter in question offered me a scant handful of vehicle kits, equivalent in quality and number to what Gearguts gives me as part of his package on a monthly basis. In other words, what Gearguts charges me about £4 for, this guy wanted £55.

If your competition can offer me what you sell at under 1/10th of the price, you've overvalued yourself out of the market. It doesn't matter what either me or you think you're worth. You're trying to sell me a product I can get elsewhere for an absolute fraction of the cost. Why on earth would I be interested? Especially given that at that fractional cost, your competition seems to be making a living wage.

To flip this around from the more expensive end, there's an Ork Patreon run by a dude called Bulwark Gaming. He puts out about one kit a month and asks the same price as Gearguts (£8.50). His kits are finished to a higher quality than Gearguts' however, even if his output is a fraction of Gearguts. He's launched about five kits so far, and from what I can tell, he does it part time. What this means is that if I'd subscribed to him and picked up all of his kits thus far, I'd still have paid less than I would need to for this Kickstarter, I'd have slightly more kits, and they'd be of much better quality.

In other words, this Kickstarter fails the litmus test against its competition on price, quality, and quantity. Which means that its commercially unfeasible and is likely why it got binned before completion. Feelings don't enter into business if you're smart. If one competitor can work for a month and turn out triple the work, and another can turn out the same quantity at a higher quality for a lower price, you're screwed. Perhaps Bulwark makes his money elsewhere. Perhaps Gearguts is some sort of 3d prodigy. It's irrelevant. The reasons don't really matter to me as a consumer.

At the end of the day, I can get better elsewhere without being particularly ethically compromised. And so I will.

 Ketara wrote:

Bayonet&Ricochet wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
Jesus that's an overpriced Kickstarter. I'd pay £15 all in and not feel ripped off, but £35 for the early bird and £55 for the regular? Christ, I could just subscribe to Gearguts for two months and I'd get both more and better stuff.

You do understand that artists need to be paid fairly for their work right? That's extremely underpriced. It often takes hundreds of hours for developing a miniature line. That includes electricity bills. Taxation, and the staggering cost of the programs. The market is oversaturated with people willing to work for nothing because they don't have an overhead.

As someone who knows the industry from the inside it costs on average around 200 to 7000 to pay for sculpting for commercial use. It's disturbing to me that you value hundred of hours of work less than a 1$ an hour. It costs on average around 10$ for a game skin dlc. Yet you're unwilling to pay for greater value? The likelihood is that artists will be ripped off and have their product put online for free. Because you can't watermark a 3D mesh.

Artist need to wise up and start calling out the bad actors in the industry. Which many of us doing now. Pay artists fairly their work.

From a professional 3D modeller. It should star with the customers to be honest. Just because it's a digital product doesn't mean that they lack value.

Do you really think that people like me aren't entitled to make a living wage?

Tripple the price and it would be fair.

Look at it from a business perspective rather than a 'I'd like people to pay me' one.

Gearguts is one 3d modeller on his own. In the space of one month, he usually turns out several vehicle kits, several infantry sets, and a handful of characters. That's one man, working full time, for a month. He's not drawing on a backlog, that's his literal output every month. As of writing, he charges £8.50 a month, has 403 patrons, and pulls in £2754 a month (sans taxes and Patreon cut). His kits are a little rough and ready (he himself says he always prefers to me moving onto the next big thing), but they're of tolerable, if crude quality.
That's the competition. One guy, working hard.

The kickstarter in question offered me a scant handful of vehicle kits, equivalent in quality and number to what Gearguts gives me as part of his package on a monthly basis. In other words, what Gearguts charges me about £4 for, this guy wanted £55.

If your competition can offer me what you sell at under 1/10th of the price, you've overvalued yourself out of the market. It doesn't matter what either me or you think you're worth. You're trying to sell me a product I can get elsewhere for an absolute fraction of the cost. Why on earth would I be interested? Especially given that at that fractional cost, your competition seems to be making a living wage.

To flip this around from the more expensive end, there's an Ork Patreon run by a dude called Bulwark Gaming. He puts out about one kit a month and asks the same price as Gearguts (£8.50). His kits are finished to a higher quality than Gearguts' however, even if his output is a fraction of Gearguts. He's launched about five kits so far, and from what I can tell, he does it part time. What this means is that if I'd subscribed to him and picked up all of his kits thus far, I'd still have paid less than I would need to for this Kickstarter, I'd have slightly more kits, and they'd be of much better quality.

In other words, this Kickstarter fails the litmus test against its competition on price, quality, and quantity. Which means that its commercially unfeasible and is likely why it got binned before completion. Feelings don't enter into business if you're smart. If one competitor can work for a month and turn out triple the work, and another can turn out the same quantity at a higher quality for a lower price, you're screwed. Perhaps Bulwark makes his money elsewhere. Perhaps Gearguts is some sort of 3d prodigy. It's irrelevant. The reasons don't really matter to me as a consumer.

At the end of the day, I can get better elsewhere without being particularly ethically compromised. And so I will.

You said that Jesus that's an overpriced Kickstarter. I'm telling you that mind set is harmful to the industry at large. And you should remember to respect the fact that the artist regardless of skill deserves to be paid fairly. This race to the bottom is destroying careers. I' can provide sculpting to a much much higher degree then both of these artists you mentioned. But few are willing to pay fairly for the work. Regardless of the talent of the artist in question. He deserves to paid fairly. And it's seems only just to mention that it's underpriced regardless if you like the design or not. Because no one else is speaking up. Or even if someone else is undervaling their work and not noticing by doing so is destroying careers.

I'm directly calling your comment about the price being expensive into question. It's not a matter of you can get it cheaper or not. It's matter of this attitude being present in the industry that diminishing the whole. And bringing light to fact that yor attitude and attitudes like yours regarding this topic is damaging to the industry

How's that sit for ethics? This effects me personally and others like me. No one respects the work artists put into this, and we scantily have a voice as is.

I'm in particular frustrated directly with this sentiment that anything over 15 is seen as expensive. I costs more than that for most people to run the computer long enough to sculpt this stuff because of the power usage. This patreaon sculpting thing is a dangerous blite on the industry at large and supporting is hurting people. Along with the expectations of sculpting hundred of models a year for next to nothing, just to compete with each other.

And I personally won't sink to that low.. And because of this I only do custom work. Or produce physical models. The terrible thing is that when you mention to anyone industry standard pricing they run away with their tail between their legs.

Maybe consider the damage you're doing to the industry and the damage this community as a whole is doing to artists.
It's become so bad that there's now constant Copyright infringement everywhere. And all of this stuff just ends up online for free. People shouldn't have to struggle for basic respect for their work.

Knowing I can sculpt better than both of these artists and I intentionally put more effort into my sculpting to be better because it's the only way to succeed. Attitudes such as yours severely damages my ability to be paid fairly because they think that all miniatures should be extremely undervalued. Other people see the average market price is dirt cheap and assume your over charging when you undercut your price.

I put ove 50 hours into the majority of my sculpting and I know others that do the same because we have to compete to survive. I know personally from the industry that distribution at manufacturing companies are now starting to value STLs as dirt cheap and refuse to pay more than 20$ a month because of people are selling them on peatreon subscriptions while the producers make bank, and refuse royalties on sales. I know that it's becoming increasingly impossible to get paid fairly for the work. I'm tempted to stop doing 3D design and drawing furry pictures online because people pay more for generic 2D drawings that takes less time. For god's knows what reason they respect artists more when it's digital drawings despite 3D is more complex takes longer to achieve the same level of detail.

What I'm trying to impart to you is that this idea of something being overpriced is hurting people directly. I'm one of those people. And it's starting to get under my skin, knowing that I must essentially work for free now to compete. Meaning I don't get to pay my rent eat food or have any independence especially when I know that taxes and turning my PC on to sculpt something now costs more than someone is willing to pay, because this community is encouraging the race to the bottom.

Bayonet&Ricochet wrote:

You said that Jesus that's an overpriced Kickstarter. I'm telling you that mind set is harmful to the industry at large.

You're missing a key aspect of what I'm saying, so I'm going to nail it down much harder.

Whether something is over or under priced is comparatively linked to supply, demand, and competition. I have demonstrated that it costs more (for its quality/quantity) as compared to what the rest of the competition in the market offers. That is what makes it 'overpriced'.

What I'm trying to impart to you is that this idea of something being overpriced is hurting people directly. I'm one of those people. And it's starting to get under my skin, knowing that I must essentially work for free now to compete. Meaning I don't get to pay my rent eat food or have any independence especially when I know that taxes and turning my PC on to sculpt something now costs more than someone is willing to pay, because this community is encouraging the race to the bottom.

Gearguts is one bloke pulling in somewhere around two grand a month (after expenses). Pretty standard full-time working wage. The Makers Cult is three blokes splitting 1840 subscriptions averaging at least £8.50 a month (somewhere in the region of around four grand each a month minus expenses). Pipermakes, a brand new Patreon which popped up just a few months ago, is already at over two hundred patrons and about £1500 a month (post patreon cut). For all of them, once something is sculpted and listed elsewhere, it then directs them a secondary revenue stream from non-patreon purchases. These people are consequently making money on Patreon and working full time.

In other words, they're doing legitimate business. Not 'racing to the bottom'. They're working full time, either individually or in teams, and making a fairly average full-time wage. Good for them. They've found a niche and are exploiting it.

I put ove 50 hours into the majority of my sculpting and I know others that do the same because we have to compete to survive. I know personally from the industry that distribution at manufacturing companies are now starting to value STLs as dirt cheap and refuse to pay more than 20$ a month because of people are selling them on peatreon subscriptions while the producers make bank, and refuse royalties on sales. I know that it's becoming increasingly impossible to get paid fairly for the work. I'm tempted to stop doing 3D design and drawing furry pictures online because people pay more for generic 2D drawings that takes less time. For god's knows what reason they respect artists more when it's digital drawings despite 3D is more complex takes longer to achieve the same level of detail.

And herein I think lies the real bone of contention and what I think your problem here is. There's a factor here that makes all your comments make sense. Tell me if I'm getting this wrong.

Up until roughly 2018, a miniatures sculptor would freelance and sell directly to the manufacturers. Be it in greenstuff or stl. format, a sculptor had the luxury of picking their work, and then charging a company what was deemed to be a fair commercial rate for a sculpt with all rights attached. And that rate (be it a lump sum or royalty based) would take into account how many hours it took to make, because it would be a one off sale (and so needed to incorporate the entire cost of the production - aka, the sculptor making a living). Naturally, that creates something of a closed circle in business terms. Sculptors built a reputation for certain types of work, a client list, an expected rate of pay, and so forth. It was hard to get into, but potentially lucrative once you did. Like any other limited arts/crafts based profession.

But now? 3d printers are a thing. Which means that a new breed of sculptor has clocked that rather than selling a one off model or kit to a manufacturers, they can market their wares direct to the public. And by selling direct to the public, they spread the cost of production. Instead of getting £400 for one 28mm model from one customer, they can sell the files (with no attached rights) to any number of customers for a fraction of that (say £10 on average for Patreon). If they can sell it to five hundred customers, they've made more money than they would have done before PLUS kept the rights for further future sales. So they're making bank.

Meanwhile, what I'm reading from your posts indicates that those those sculptors who are used to marketing to industry are now being thrown a massive wrench by this development. All these companies who are used to coughing up the invoiced larger sums are suddenly going 'Hang on a minute. All the punters are getting an .stl file which lets them manufacture indefinitely for themselves for a tenner. Why am I paying a grand for that? You seem overpriced' And so they're trying to renegotiate something lower as a result, leading to the commercial sculptors having to cut prices to attract business.

Would that be a fair summation? I don't know because I'm not a commercial sculptor. But it seems to be what you're saying to me. And if it is, your problem isn't with me. Not really. When I say something is overpriced, I'm talking about the Patreon/direct to consumer 3D print market. Not the commercial one. I wouldn't dream of saying that the Kickstarter was overpriced for a commercial license; because that's not my market. And in all honesty, I can see why the commercial sculptors would be panicking. This sort of development doesn't really favour those who stick to the old methods of operation. As more people get 3d printers (especially with the new Mono screens), I suspect the newer direct to consumer market is only going to grow as the other one shrinks. Even if it doesn't shrink, it makes bargaining with companies much more uncomfortable.

 Ketara wrote:

Bayonet&Ricochet wrote:

You said that Jesus that's an overpriced Kickstarter. I'm telling you that mind set is harmful to the industry at large.

You're missing a key aspect of what I'm saying, so I'm going to nail it down much harder.

Whether something is over or under priced is comparatively linked to supply, demand, and competition. I have demonstrated that it costs more (for its quality/quantity) as compared to what the rest of the competition in the market offers. That is what makes it 'overpriced'.

What I'm trying to impart to you is that this idea of something being overpriced is hurting people directly. I'm one of those people. And it's starting to get under my skin, knowing that I must essentially work for free now to compete. Meaning I don't get to pay my rent eat food or have any independence especially when I know that taxes and turning my PC on to sculpt something now costs more than someone is willing to pay, because this community is encouraging the race to the bottom.

Gearguts is one bloke pulling in somewhere around two grand a month (after expenses). Pretty standard full-time working wage. The Makers Cult is three blokes splitting 1840 subscriptions averaging at least £8.50 a month (somewhere in the region of around four grand each a month minus expenses). Pipermakes, a brand new Patreon which popped up just a few months ago, is already at over two hundred patrons and about £1500 a month (post patreon cut). For all of them, once something is sculpted and listed elsewhere, it then directs them a secondary revenue stream from non-patreon purchases. These people are consequently making money on Patreon and working full time.

In other words, they're doing legitimate business. Not 'racing to the bottom'. They're working full time, either individually or in teams, and making a fairly average full-time wage. Good for them. They've found a niche and are exploiting it.

I put ove 50 hours into the majority of my sculpting and I know others that do the same because we have to compete to survive. I know personally from the industry that distribution at manufacturing companies are now starting to value STLs as dirt cheap and refuse to pay more than 20$ a month because of people are selling them on peatreon subscriptions while the producers make bank, and refuse royalties on sales. I know that it's becoming increasingly impossible to get paid fairly for the work. I'm tempted to stop doing 3D design and drawing furry pictures online because people pay more for generic 2D drawings that takes less time. For god's knows what reason they respect artists more when it's digital drawings despite 3D is more complex takes longer to achieve the same level of detail.

And herein I think lies the real bone of contention and what I think your problem here is. There's a factor here that makes all your comments make sense. Tell me if I'm getting this wrong.

Up until roughly 2018, a miniatures sculptor would freelance and sell directly to the manufacturers. Be it in greenstuff or stl. format, a sculptor had the luxury of picking their work, and then charging a company what was deemed to be a fair commercial rate for a sculpt with all rights attached. And that rate (be it a lump sum or royalty based) would take into account how many hours it took to make, because it would be a one off sale (and so needed to incorporate the entire cost of the production - aka, the sculptor making a living). Naturally, that creates something of a closed circle in business terms. Sculptors built a reputation for certain types of work, a client list, an expected rate of pay, and so forth. It was hard to get into, but potentially lucrative once you did. Like any other limited arts/crafts based profession.

But now? 3d printers are a thing. Which means that a new breed of sculptor has clocked that rather than selling a one off model or kit to a manufacturers, they can market their wares direct to the public. And by selling direct to the public, they spread the cost of production. Instead of getting £400 for one 28mm model from one customer, they can sell the files (with no attached rights) to any number of customers for a fraction of that (say £10 on average for Patreon). If they can sell it to five hundred customers, they've made more money than they would have done before PLUS kept the rights for further future sales. So they're making bank.

Meanwhile, what I'm reading from your posts indicates that those those sculptors who are used to marketing to industry are now being thrown a massive wrench by this development. All these companies who are used to coughing up the invoiced larger sums are suddenly going 'Hang on a minute. All the punters are getting an .stl file which lets them manufacture indefinitely for themselves for a tenner. Why am I paying a grand for that? You seem overpriced' And so they're trying to renegotiate something lower as a result, leading to the commercial sculptors having to cut prices to attract business.

Would that be a fair summation? I don't know because I'm not a commercial sculptor. But it seems to be what you're saying to me. And if it is, your problem isn't with me. Not really. When I say something is overpriced, I'm talking about the Patreon/direct to consumer 3D print market. Not the commercial one. I wouldn't dream of saying that the Kickstarter was overpriced for a commercial license; because that's not my market. And in all honesty, I can see why the commercial sculptors would be panicking. This sort of development doesn't really favour those who stick to the old methods of operation. As more people get 3d printers (especially with the new Mono screens), I suspect the newer direct to consumer market is only going to grow as the other one shrinks. Even if it doesn't shrink, it makes bargaining with companies much more uncomfortable.

And I'm telling you straight up it's destroying careers, lives and livelihoods. And I'm telling you directly your attitude is hurting people in the industry. I'm also telling you succinctly that you're wrong about the price of the product being overpriced simply because someone else who lives in their parents basement can offer it cheaper. It doesn't work like that. You don't have to agree with the value others will. And I'm also telling you directly that people like you are destroying the industry. And that 500$ you mentioned doesn't cover the amount of work vs profit because they still have to do the work. They still have to pay for rent, electricity, graphics cards, computer upkeep, monitors, software, heat, and hydro. I'm telling you directly factually you're incorrect. Just the electrical bill alone would put most over budget. That's not including carbon taxes, advertising budgets, paying for website design and development or illustrations for that website. I'm personally already 20k$ In debt from sculpting. You think 500$ is enough to cover even a fraction of the money to get a business running? I'm telling you directly that you're wrong. And it greatly disgusts me that this STL market is being undervalued. One model for 10$ is greatly undervalued. 15 to 20 a month for the same price is in the face. And the only reason it's happening is because of attitudes like yours.

Just because one person doesn't value the it at the stated price, doesn't mean no one else will.
That particular KS slightly tweaked some of the goals and has fully funded, double their desired amount, with another week to go.
Good for them. So someone thought the product was worth it.
I wouldn't buy those items at that price, but that's more because I can do comparable or better stuff with the cardboard pile on my desk as I have the ability/time; granted, I know that's not an ability everyone has, which is why they back these kinds of projects.

That's a gamble with kickstarters, you have to do a lot of the initial (unpaid) work as proof of concept to entice people wanting to back you; it does give you both a advertisement/reputation to the overall community that would be harder to create with just a patreon, and data on whether your ideas have traction within the community to even sink more time into...

The problem with stl is it's a huge matter of trust once you let the file go online.
The old way with producers, you had contracts that could actually be enforced, if there's a file leak it's from a handful of possible persons; and aside from legal consequences, a wronged party could rally the rest of the community to have other reputation and financial ramifications.
Now though...it would suck doing a full time job equivalent of prep work, price monthly or per asset with the expectation to balance quality/attract optimum customer amount, and...then have someone upload all your files on thingverse or sell without licensing and have next to no way to stop them.
if I ever did a regular 3d patreon, it probably wouldn't be my best work, it'd be 'good enough.'
or treat patreon = coupon code rather than direct stl access.
Conundrums like this makes me miss what Trollforged community tried to do.
Probably all I'll say, considering it's a tad off topic, a good convo to have but perhaps in one of the other existing threads?

Bayonet&Ricochet wrote:

And I'm telling you straight up it's destroying careers, lives and livelihoods. And I'm telling you directly your attitude is hurting people in the industry. I'm also telling you succinctly that you're wrong about the price of the product being overpriced simply because someone else who lives in their parents basement can offer it cheaper.

You keep throwing around this idea of people in their parent's basement. There are full fledged companies out there like Lost Kingdom, Txarli Factory, Heresy Forge, and more; all of which employ multiple people and offer me more bang for buck. I've also named the sorts of incomes being earned on Patreon. Can we discard this somewhat offensive idea that making more than twenty grand a year doesn't pay the electricity and requires you to live in a basement?

And I'm also telling you directly that people like you are destroying the industry.

You didn't answer my question. Are you talking about commercial entities looking for commercial work for mass manufacture, or private customers bulk buying stl's from Patreon/KS? Because these are two very different markets. Which industry are you talking about and which are you claiming that I'm personally destroying?

And that 500$ you mentioned doesn't cover the amount of work vs profit because they still have to do the work. They still have to pay for rent, electricity, graphics cards, computer upkeep, monitors, software, heat, and hydro. I'm telling you directly factually you're incorrect. Just the electrical bill alone would put most over budget.

I'm giving you the figures I was quoted back before home printing was a thing. I looked to get a model sculpted and pulled in quotes from about two amateurs and five different professionals about six/seven years ago. They ranged from £280 up to about £600 for a private 28mm model not being made for general production and requiring about 40 hours of their time.

I also read an article roughly contemporaneously from another professional who gave figures which matched my experience when it came to tabletop; and then talked about how the real money to be made was sculpting for companies like Hasbro, who would pay literally tens of thousands for a top notch mass plastic produced figurine. But he also said that such work was rare and hard to come by; and the four to five hundred figure for a private 28mm non-commercial figure was the ballpark standard. Commercial was, of course, valued much higher.

So I'm...not really making these figures up? I could dig back through my inbox and pull up the names of the professional sculptors (they worked for Mantic, PP, GW, and other big games in their time) if I really cared enough (which I don't for an internet discussion). The point is though, that's what they charged. If you're telling me that's insufficient, and they're all amateurs living in basements, it's a bit of an insult to them really. But then again, I'm still not sure that I'm actually the one you're after when you're venting your spleen here. You mention fifteen to twenty models for a tenner as being 'in the face' which certainly isn't commercial sculpting! Like I keep saying, home printing and commercial sculpting are two very different markets, with different price points, pressures, target customers, and so forth. Can you clarify which industry it is I'm ruining out of the two please?

You keep moving goal posts. We were talking about the smaller companies like the Guy's miniatures you claimed were "Jesus that's expensive" and the impact that sentiment has on the industry for independent companies like myself.

I shouldn't have to clarify myself multiple times. STL dumps online through Patreon, STL dumps online, including ones from lager companies speed up the race to the bottom. The devaluation of the market is made significantly worse by lager companies, because they churn out more miniatures increasing the race to the bottom, devaluing the market. Meaning independent creators can't afford to sculpt. Not unless they do side jobs. The independent companies and creators are not being paid fairly, and not able to make commissions easily. Because the customer expect 20$ sculpting this is made worse by things like fiverr. So much so that that 2D furry art with crayons is becoming more lucrative. And. No not everyone goes through Kickstarter not everyone uses Patreon. Some people are using their own money.

Of course I take this personally, and Im disgusted by the sentiment that you think "Jesus" that's a high price for a Kickstarter. It's not it's likely the can't afford to go cheaper to get off the ground. Which is a point you keep missing.

Myself and others have already talked about it being a race to the bottom.

We already know that the industry is parasitic that companies are pushing out open-source STLs or buying the rights to STLS cheap. I had a Fellow last month refuse to pay royalties for commercial uses of editing a STL he got on the free market that was open source, because the license said it was royaltie free and for commercial use. He just wasn't willing to pay for my work. The guy was upset that I wanted to be paid fairly for my work in in royalties for modifying the existing art and creating a new piece that he owned the right to change and produce. I had to turn down his offer. One of the hundreds of examples I've either encountered personally or heard about.

The STL market is now effectively making sculpting impossible and devaluing the work of commission artists. People are unwilling to pay fairly for sculpting as a side effect the race to the bottom. Some people are getting paid through volume by churning out lower quality sculpting. That seems nightmarish from the perspective of a sculptur it doesn't seem sustainable. Sure the people you mentioned might be willing to accept part time work but probably have other employment. Meaning they're still working all the time. Some of only have sculpting. I for example have injuries from working other more dangerous jobs. Now I can only work from home.

I've already mentioned that companies are now trying to match Patreon subscription prices for commercial payments, refusing royalties, making it impossible to turn a profit. I've spoken to one such company last week.

I don't know what else to say you don't get it. Sure it's personal because it effectively destroys my ability to work in the industry and makes it difficult for everyone. The only saving grace is volume of production, Smaller companies can't compete in this market and lose. Larger companies will continue to produce STLs and devaluing the market, making it even more difficult for independent creators until they reach a point where it dries up the Industry entirely. What happens when you get 50 to a hundred STLs for 30$ because a company wants to sell Blackstock of old STLs. And someone starts saying "jesus" that's expensive.

Furthermore Kickstarter isn't an online store..You're donating a sum of money to help fund a starting company, and Getting something in return for backing the project. Meaning you're paying to help someone's get started. An already established company doesn't need to get started. Furthermore explaining why it's not overpriced.

Regardless you're likely not going to see eye to eye on this. I just wanted to impart the fact that independent companies and small businesses and livelihoods are being destroyed by STL dumps devaluing the market, because it effects people I know personally.

I just don't understand why you don't get the human factors here. People need to eat.

I can't speak for some of the people you mentioned but I can speak for the people who are being effected by the devaluation of the market. Like this sculptur who's Kickstarter campaign you said was over valued.

Like I've said this effects my personal experience as a commission 3D modelling artist. For me it's not about pushing out low quality sculpting. It's about being paid fairly for my work. When people expect 30$ commissions Meaning I can't afford to sculpt miniatures any longer. I have to switch mediums into rigging, animation, and video games art which I'm very not interested in doing.

I'm also worried that the market devaluing will effect the overall Sales of my wargame when it hits the market. If it hits the market because I'm not sure any longer how I'm going to pay for it. I currently can't afford to get it to Kickstarter going already over budget. Due to some extent of illustration prices, and video editing, filming etc.lawyers fees. Not mentione advertising.

Meaning that the only thing keeping me in the game is commission work. I don't have the time to churn out low quality sculpting STLs and that would likely devalue my intented sales of physical models. If I can some how get enough money to actually get to production. I may be forced sell STLs at which point I'm going to give up and just embrace homelessness grab a guitar and live on the street again, because I can't go back to working minimum wage with injuries. If there was jobs available.anyways.

If I start selling STLs online I have zero time to design my wargame. I only can afford commission art because it used to pay higher. I'm also not keen on putting out STLs online because they lack protection. Another factor being glazed over and quickening the Market devaluation. I've been teaching lessons simply to pay for food. I'm overworked. And I'm frustrated. And I'm sorry for being annoyed by your comments. I strongly feel that the guy deserves more for that Kickstarter campaign then he's asking for.

My apologies for auto correct in the previous posts I've been trying to edit them. I also have dyslexia I think I've typed something and I go back to realize it wasn't typed.

I guess thanks for your last comment. I don't have high hopes honestly from what I'm seeing. If I had hind sight I would have avoided getting into the industry in the first place. I would have avoided spending my money on computers, software, and study, I would have invested in something else. Maybe I don't have a right to dictate to you what you think is valuable. Maybe it's futile. But I had something to say on the subject.

Sorry for the edits I wasn't able to get my thoughts out clearly the first draft.

Bayonet&Ricochet wrote:
You keep moving goal posts. We were talking about the smaller companies like the Guy's miniatures you claimed were "Jesus that's expensive" and the impact that sentiment has on the industry for independent companies like myself.
I shouldn't have to clarify myself multiple times. STL dumps online through Patreon, STL dumps online, including ones from lager companies, it's actually worse with lager companies, because they churn out more increasing the race to the bottom, devaluing the market. Meaning independent creators can't afford to sculpt. And. No not everyone goes through Kickstarter not everyone uses Patreon. Some people are using their own money.

I'm not moving goal posts. I'm trying to pin down exactly which sector you're talking about. The commercial sculpting sector, or the 'direct to fans-home print' sector. These are not the same. They have a different target market. They sell at different prices. They operate through different channels.

My comment is aimed at the 'direct to fans-home print' sector. Not the commercial one. The project in question was a direct to home print Kickstarter. So I compared it to others in that sector. Like for like, apples against apples. When you start railing at me for companies not wanting to pay you anymore, that's oranges to apples. It's a different sector. I'm not sure how much clearer I can make this for you. When you say things like this:-

I've already mentioned that companies are now trying to match Patreon subscription prices for commercial payments, refusing royalties, making it impossible to turn a profit. I've spoken to one such company last week.

You're talking about the commercial sector here. I'm talking about the home print sector. Two quite different areas of business. More confusing still though, is this comment:-

We already know that the industry is parasitic that companies are pushing out open-source STLs or buying the rights to STLS cheap.

Which leans into a third sector altogether. Namely the one where 3d artists license print rights to their stls through Patreonfor physical manufacture to other companies. Which is another sector altogether which sits somewhat awkwardly between the two already mentioned (and bleeds between the two). This is business 101 guv. I might not be a sculptor, but I'm versed enough in business practice that I know how to separate markets. You're slinging mud at me here for negative developments in another business sector to that which my original comment was related to.

Given your view on them all working ridiculous hours in basements for very little money, I actually just ran your comments past some other 3d sculptors who run Patreons with a decent following. And actually, none of them are working the sort of conditions you're talking about. One says he spends about 100 hours a month. Another says 50. And so on. Quite varied. Some of them do it part-time, others full-time. Most of them are making respectable enough sums of money compared to their local cost of living and effort expended.

So...yeah. Having consulted with others in the patreon trade, I'm not sure things are quite the way you're making them out to be. Either way, this is OT enough now that this will be my final post on the matter and I hope business picks up for you regardless.

 celebrandas wrote:
Here's one for historical roman minis.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/joinordie/march-to-hell-rome

These guys did a WW2 campaign recently that went nuts with how many different factions got added to it through stretch goals. This one seems to be going the same way considering it just started 2 days ago and has already unlocked a third faction.

Hmmmmm.... Looks like 'Squats take over Rome...' While I might be tempted to get into a Roman Army, the style of these is not for me.

And, on the topic of artists pay, I was an illustartor for many years and yes, it can be hard to be adequately paid. Some KS projects I think are reasonable, while others seem pricey - however, I definitely feel those in the higher range need to be held to a higher standard and typically, they are - nice sculpts and all that go beyond a guy spending a day to knock out a sculpt - the bad ones end up on Thingiverse for free pretty quick.

 Ketara wrote:

Bayonet&Ricochet wrote:
You keep moving goal posts. We were talking about the smaller companies like the Guy's miniatures you claimed were "Jesus that's expensive" and the impact that sentiment has on the industry for independent companies like myself.
I shouldn't have to clarify myself multiple times. STL dumps online through Patreon, STL dumps online, including ones from lager companies, it's actually worse with lager companies, because they churn out more increasing the race to the bottom, devaluing the market. Meaning independent creators can't afford to sculpt. And. No not everyone goes through Kickstarter not everyone uses Patreon. Some people are using their own money.

I'm not moving goal posts. I'm trying to pin down exactly which sector you're talking about. The commercial sculpting sector, or the 'direct to fans-home print' sector. These are not the same. They have a different target market. They sell at different prices. They operate through different channels.

My comment is aimed at the 'direct to fans-home print' sector. Not the commercial one. The project in question was a direct to home print Kickstarter. So I compared it to others in that sector. Like for like, apples against apples. When you start railing at me for companies not wanting to pay you anymore, that's oranges to apples. It's a different sector. I'm not sure how much clearer I can make this for you. When you say things like this:-

I've already mentioned that companies are now trying to match Patreon subscription prices for commercial payments, refusing royalties, making it impossible to turn a profit. I've spoken to one such company last week.

You're talking about the commercial sector here. I'm talking about the home print sector. Two quite different areas of business. More confusing still though, is this comment:-

We already know that the industry is parasitic that companies are pushing out open-source STLs or buying the rights to STLS cheap.

Which leans into a third sector altogether. Namely the one where 3d artists license print rights to their stls through Patreonfor physical manufacture to other companies. Which is another sector altogether which sits somewhat awkwardly between the two already mentioned (and bleeds between the two). This is business 101 guv. I might not be a sculptor, but I'm versed enough in business practice that I know how to separate markets. You're slinging mud at me here for negative developments in another business sector to that which my original comment was related to.

Given your view on them all working ridiculous hours in basements for very little money, I actually just ran your comments past some other 3d sculptors who run Patreons with a decent following. And actually, none of them are working the sort of conditions you're talking about. One says he spends about 100 hours a month. Another says 50. And so on. Quite varied. Some of them do it part-time, others full-time. Most of them are making respectable enough sums of money compared to their local cost of living and effort expended.

So...yeah. Having consulted with others in the patreon trade, I'm not sure things are quite the way you're making them out to be. Either way, this is OT enough now that this will be my final post on the matter and I hope business picks up for you regardless.

This entire discussion reads a bit like weavers complaining about the spinning jenny devaluing their work by selling more cotton for less money with less effort. How dare customers expect the cotton to be cheaper than before now that the supply has increased enormously from far more vendors?

The distruption caused to an industry by sudden technological changes; in this case the democratization of the marketplace by home 3Dprinting technology coupled with the direct-to-customer possibilities that crowdfunding sites like kickstarter and patreon for 3D sculptors is such a fundamental change; and I am sure that such gaming miniatures patreons are driving the home 3Dprinter market as well.

It can be harsh on individual actors stuck in the old paradigm, as evidenced by the saltyness above.

Yet I do agree; sculptor's work is generally undervalued. Much like most artists, musicians, painters, designers, what have you. But that is simply the reality as it is. No point yelling at clouds. The choice is either to adapt to the new paradigm somehow, or leave the market. There are still weavers who can make a living weaving manually in the face of cheap factory-woven massproduced product. But they are few and far between.

But still, selling your stls for (example) 10 dollars 500 times direct to consumers instead of once for 500 dollars to a publisher. That seems to be the key to making a living in the new paradigm.

As for the race to the bottom; I do not believe it is a null-sum game. It would be interesting to know exactly how many sculptors or 3D artist now are making a living sculpting miniatures as opposed to how many did under the old paradigm where only companies bought the sculpts to make reproductions.

I suspect there might be a significantly larger number of active sculptors now than there were employed in the industry before, which also would imply that there is a significantly larger sum of money being made sculpting, even though it is getting harder to make the money the old-fashioned way.

Also, I believe that the market for physical models is changing, possibly will shrink somewhat, simply because of there seems to be large amounts of whales -collectors and gamers like myself- that previously spent large amounts on physical minis, but now instead buy large amounts of stls to print at home.

Three days left on this one and it has really exploded to offer a lot reveals and stretch goals - absolutely gorgeous sculpts for Bretonnian models - some real centerpieces here:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1115856510/kingdom-of-mercia-pre-supported-stl-files

Here is another sci fi scenery kickstarter. Allegedly Designed for 28mm, but I actually think it's more appropriate for smaller scales. I think I'll merge some of the its and add them to my 10mm scale board for Horizon Wars.

The free additional gubbinz look good as well. I do have to ask though, why does everyone add flipping dice towers to their stuff? I assume its just because it's an easy thing to design for 3d printing, but how many dice towers can a person reasonably make use of?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1419392625/3d-printable-scifi-modular-structures-and-props?ref=android_project_share

Those look cool. Yep, makes me want to start up 40k again...

Titanforge now have a kickstarter up for their Gridwars stuff.

Lots of lovely looking models in there without needing to muck about with Patreon.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/titanforgeminis/gridwars?ref=android_project_share