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The collectors Codex Deathwatch sold out before the Collectors Codex Space Wolves.

Now it’s all just a single data point, but it’s an interesting implications kind of data point.

Did they have the same stock levels? GW doesn't make all their collectors editions to the same volume

Not really. You can't draw any conclusions from it as you don't know how many of each codex they printed.

So it could be that they printed equal numbers of both, indicating that Deathwatch are more popular. It could be that they only printed a very small number of Deathwatch, which doesn't tell us much other than GW doesn't think there are a lot of deathwatch fans. Or it could be that GW overestimated the popularity of Space Wolves and printed much more of that codex, which outsupplied the immediate demand, resulting in it taking longer to sell out.

And you have no way to differentiate between those scenarios.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Not really. You can't draw any conclusions from it as you don't know how many of each codex they printed.

So it could be that they printed equal numbers of both, indicating that Deathwatch are more popular. It could be that they only printed a very small number of Deathwatch, which doesn't tell us much other than GW doesn't think there are a lot of deathwatch fans. Or it could be that GW overestimated the popularity of Space Wolves and printed much more of that codex, which outsupplied the immediate demand, resulting in it taking longer to sell out.

And you have no way to differentiate between those scenarios.

And we don’t know if people are switching to Death watch, or already were there. Or leaving Wolves. Or how much deathwatch sold out first by.

As I said, it’s just a single data point, but it has interesting implications.

Deathwatch suffer as a competitive force from getting bonuses to kill xenos.

That may sound crazy at first, the issue is they don't get any bonuses to kill MEQ, chaos, or other imperials. In tournaments, leagues, etc, playing among friends you are more likely to play non xenos than xenos. The implication here is that if you select a faction who's bonuses are focused on killing the fringe minorities of what you will see on the table top you likely gave up more general bonuses that the other factions you will play the majority of the time are getting making you subpar to most of the other armies you will play.

Tldr-DW don't get the cake and get to eat it too.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

So it could be that they printed equal numbers of both, indicating that Deathwatch are more popular. It could be that they only printed a very small number of Deathwatch, which doesn't tell us much other than GW doesn't think there are a lot of deathwatch fans. Or it could be that GW overestimated the popularity of Space Wolves and printed much more of that codex, which outsupplied the immediate demand, resulting in it taking longer to sell out.

Or it could be nothing to do with the popularity of either faction overall, and simply an indication that the current crop of Deathwatch fans are more interested in a collector's edition version of their codex than the current crop of SW fans.

 insaniak wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

So it could be that they printed equal numbers of both, indicating that Deathwatch are more popular. It could be that they only printed a very small number of Deathwatch, which doesn't tell us much other than GW doesn't think there are a lot of deathwatch fans. Or it could be that GW overestimated the popularity of Space Wolves and printed much more of that codex, which outsupplied the immediate demand, resulting in it taking longer to sell out.

Or it could be nothing to do with the popularity of either faction overall, and simply an indication that the current crop of Deathwatch fans are more interested in a collector's edition version of their codex than the current crop of SW fans.

heck for all my years as a Tyranid fan I've never bought a limited edition Tyranid Codex. I've just never felt that a different cover and ribbon bookmark is worth double the price. So yep I'd agree that you could have a very popular army and still not sell out on limited edition codex.


Now if GW went and threw 20 pages of artwork in then I'd be far more likely to want one (at which point I'd be endlessly complaining that GW doesn't print enough of them).

It's a good indicator of who has more money than sense.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's a good indicator of who has more money than sense.

this, even if SW and DW codices where printed in equal numbers all the sell out of the special editions means is that death watch players may simply be more willing to spend their money on CE editions of codices. whereas space wolves may be less inclined to purchase fancy collectors editions.

 Overread wrote:

heck for all my years as a Tyranid fan I've never bought a limited edition Tyranid Codex. I've just never felt that a different cover and ribbon bookmark is worth double the price..

I made that mistake with the 4th edition rulebook, and that quickly turned into my least favorite edition of the game. So I stuck with the cheapest options for all of my books after that.

 insaniak wrote:

 Overread wrote:

heck for all my years as a Tyranid fan I've never bought a limited edition Tyranid Codex. I've just never felt that a different cover and ribbon bookmark is worth double the price..

I made that mistake with the 4th edition rulebook, and that quickly turned into my least favorite edition of the game. So I stuck with the cheapest options for all of my books after that.

about the only time I even THOUGHT of getting a LE codex was the space marines 8th edition one. and it was more a "will this be worth something from a collectors standpoint due to introducing primaris marines?" I decided against it and have no regrets.

I feel (based on nothing but my own preconceptions) that the collectors books would largely sell to two groups - the really fanatical veteran players who don't care how much money they spend on their faction and want all the shiny toys to show their fanaticism, or the relative newcomers who are still all excited about their chosen faction and haven't yet realised that they'll be rebuying these books every few years.

Which isn't a judgment on either group... People should spend their money on whatever they like. I can certainly understand the appeal of a nice, shiny book, having sent an unwise amount of my money the way of the Folio Society in the last few years.

 Overread wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

So it could be that they printed equal numbers of both, indicating that Deathwatch are more popular. It could be that they only printed a very small number of Deathwatch, which doesn't tell us much other than GW doesn't think there are a lot of deathwatch fans. Or it could be that GW overestimated the popularity of Space Wolves and printed much more of that codex, which outsupplied the immediate demand, resulting in it taking longer to sell out.

Or it could be nothing to do with the popularity of either faction overall, and simply an indication that the current crop of Deathwatch fans are more interested in a collector's edition version of their codex than the current crop of SW fans.

heck for all my years as a Tyranid fan I've never bought a limited edition Tyranid Codex. I've just never felt that a different cover and ribbon bookmark is worth double the price.

What amuses me is it isn't even a different cover anymore. They just don't add some of the graphic layers (for the 40K logo, its 'backing' and the thin white box box around 'Codex' or 'Codex Supplement').

The bookmark is another story, as those are quite capable of damaging pages, weakening the binding and also add potential acid and environmental damage to the pages depending on what they're made out of. No one should actually want those in a 'collector's item.'
I'd definitely run a pH test of the ribbon fabric (which might difficult with the usual pH test pens, depending on how dark the fabric is).

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Not really. You can't draw any conclusions from it as you don't know how many of each codex they printed.

So it could be that they printed equal numbers of both, indicating that Deathwatch are more popular. It could be that they only printed a very small number of Deathwatch, which doesn't tell us much other than GW doesn't think there are a lot of deathwatch fans. Or it could be that GW overestimated the popularity of Space Wolves and printed much more of that codex, which outsupplied the immediate demand, resulting in it taking longer to sell out.

And you have no way to differentiate between those scenarios.

And is army that sells more　codexes of both type combined and more models or one that sells just more of extra pricey cover? Aka maybe there's more　wolf players but less those who are willing to pay extra for book.

Voss wrote:
The bookmark is another story, as those are quite capable of damaging pages, weakening the binding and also add potential acid and environmental damage to the pages depending on what they're made out of. No one should actually want those in a 'collector's item.'
I'd definitely run a pH test of the ribbon fabric (which might difficult with the usual pH test pens, depending on how dark the fabric is).

Sounds like you know what you're talking about here, Voss - care to go into a little more detail on the subject?

Voss 793904 10984931 wrote:
I'd definitely run a pH test of the ribbon fabric (which might difficult with the usual pH test pens, depending on how dark the fabric is).

Aren't those always silk though, I can't imagine someone making a collectors item costing as much as GW stuff costs, and make the fabric some sort of synthetic fabric or colored wool or cotton mesh.

Karol wrote:

Voss 793904 10984931 wrote:
I'd definitely run a pH test of the ribbon fabric (which might difficult with the usual pH test pens, depending on how dark the fabric is).

Aren't those always silk though, I can't imagine someone making a collectors item costing as much as GW stuff costs, and make the fabric some sort of synthetic fabric or colored wool or cotton mesh.

you think GW wou;dn't sell an expensive collector's edition made out of cheap shoddy materials?

BrianDavion wrote:

Karol wrote:

Voss 793904 10984931 wrote:
I'd definitely run a pH test of the ribbon fabric (which might difficult with the usual pH test pens, depending on how dark the fabric is).

Aren't those always silk though, I can't imagine someone making a collectors item costing as much as GW stuff costs, and make the fabric some sort of synthetic fabric or colored wool or cotton mesh.

you think GW wou;dn't sell an expensive collector's edition made out of cheap shoddy materials?

'Finepaper'

Voss wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

So it could be that they printed equal numbers of both, indicating that Deathwatch are more popular. It could be that they only printed a very small number of Deathwatch, which doesn't tell us much other than GW doesn't think there are a lot of deathwatch fans. Or it could be that GW overestimated the popularity of Space Wolves and printed much more of that codex, which outsupplied the immediate demand, resulting in it taking longer to sell out.

Or it could be nothing to do with the popularity of either faction overall, and simply an indication that the current crop of Deathwatch fans are more interested in a collector's edition version of their codex than the current crop of SW fans.

heck for all my years as a Tyranid fan I've never bought a limited edition Tyranid Codex. I've just never felt that a different cover and ribbon bookmark is worth double the price.

What amuses me is it isn't even a different cover anymore. They just don't add some of the graphic layers (for the 40K logo, its 'backing' and the thin white box box around 'Codex' or 'Codex Supplement').

Aye that's true, I know the Morathi book recently got a different cover art, but most of the codex/battletomes have the same art.


As for the groups that buy them I'd add two more.
1) Those who are still excited and keen for their army* but who have bought most if not all the models they want/need. Basically those who have a budget to spend, but nothing demanding their attention. So they "overspend" mostly because they can. You could also add the more affluent to this group, ergo those for home £25 difference in price really is nothing to them.

2) Those who see it as an investment with the hope that the book will at the very least not devalue over the years and might even increase in value. With the intention of then being able to sell the book on to the other groups.

Thing is buying a special edition that's only special because of a limited production run also brings with it the pressure that if you bought it because its special, chances are you don't then want to actually game with it. You want it safe on the shelf. So much like special edition books and signed books - chances are a good number of people that buy special editions also end up buying the regular too so that they can game with one and preserve the other.

*yes despite Dakka's attempts, there are long term fans who are still happy

BrianDavion 793904 10985001 wrote:

you think GW wou;dn't sell an expensive collector's edition made out of cheap shoddy materials?

Would that not kind of a go against the whole expensive collectors item thing?

'Expensive is not automatically a sign of quality. Nor is putting a limited edition label on it.

This is the company, after all, that for years used trainee sculptor exercises as limited edition model releases.

Having said that, I drew no complaints about the quality of my 4th ex book (just with the contents) and I've never bothered looking too closely at the ribbon, so no idea what sort of fabric it is. I'm not expecting it to be worth much in a hundred years, so I don't really expect it matters that much.

Karol wrote:

BrianDavion 793904 10985001 wrote:

you think GW wou;dn't sell an expensive collector's edition made out of cheap shoddy materials?

Would that not kind of a go against the whole expensive collectors item thing?

See, there's this thing, called brand...

Yeah Gw is a brand that is established, hence anything with GW written on it is automatically worth more. (even if it isn't on a purely quality level.)

Companies can (ab-)use this, in conjunction of copyright, etc. , especially publicly traded ones , by lowering production cost / outsourcing and increasing sales prices, this then leads to higher margines per product.
you can see this the easiest for stuff like handbags for women, which are created at the same places noname ones are. Same factory even in some cases, except one will cost 1000+ CHF the other maybee 60.

It also leads to piracy, / recasting in the case of GW. Because the margin of GW can easily be abused whilest still providing decent earnings for the recaster. Which is doubly Funny because f.e. GW resin is shoddy par excellence quality, which is why funnily alot of recasts are higher quality.

Considering that recasters only pay for material costs and don't have to pay for product development, marketing, bulk orders, further product development, overheads and often (since recasting is illegal anyway) standard business rates and such - chances are a recaster can undercut almost any model firm no matter what prices they set.

 Overread wrote:
Considering that recasters only pay for material costs and don't have to pay for product development, marketing, bulk orders, further product development, overheads and often (since recasting is illegal anyway) standard business rates and such - chances are a recaster can undercut almost any model firm no matter what prices they set.

And yet you don't see. F.e Anvil getting undercut, despite beeing resin, and despite also having a high margin?
let's be blunt here, GW , especially in regards to resin products , is selling us GAK.

And further, i'd like people to undercut Someone like wargames atlantic.

GW has invited the Issue of recasting themselves by:
Offering lackluster delivery service for mail order.
Absurd prices.
Gak quality, especially in cases of their Resin.
Establishing a Brand TM that has a premium conotation, which further makes it desireable for copy cats.


The only ones really suffering from the situation is the end custommer, because A: you buy the overpriced GW stuff, and yes it is overpriced or B: you buy something that is ilegal-

and GW has also advantages compared to the recasters, economy of scale f.e. is for industrial production one of the main pts.
Especially plastic production has gotten alot cheaper over the years and yet we have had not one pricedrop since? i dunno the switch from metal to plastic if adjusted to inflation.

Voss wrote:
The bookmark is another story, as those are quite capable of damaging pages, weakening the binding and also add potential acid and environmental damage to the pages depending on what they're made out of. No one should actually want those in a 'collector's item.'
I'd definitely run a pH test of the ribbon fabric (which might difficult with the usual pH test pens, depending on how dark the fabric is).

I have never seen a book damaged by a ribbon, ribbons are in fact strongly encouraged as they do less damage to a book. Maybe a very cheaply dyed ribbon could bleed its colour onto a book but that must be vanishingly rare. I have a lot of books that are at least 100 years old (I collect weird fiction and ghost stories from the 19th and early 20th century, my username is a nod to that) and aside from the ribbons themselves becoming frayed and torn from use, I have never seen a book with damage from a ribbon.

I've purchased LE codexes for multiple editions, the quality of the 9th LE codexes is lower than 8th. The soft touch cover for my 9th codex is already showing wear down the front and back of the spine. My 8th edition codexes still look near mint.

 Dysartes wrote:

Voss wrote:
The bookmark is another story, as those are quite capable of damaging pages, weakening the binding and also add potential acid and environmental damage to the pages depending on what they're made out of. No one should actually want those in a 'collector's item.'
I'd definitely run a pH test of the ribbon fabric (which might difficult with the usual pH test pens, depending on how dark the fabric is).

Sounds like you know what you're talking about here, Voss - care to go into a little more detail on the subject?

Yeah, sorry didn't come back to this for a while.

Basically, when you're binding a book, you want as few failure points as possible. This is especially true with the type of binding GW likes to go for (which for the record is not unusual or wrong)- the pages are glued to a fabric backing, which isn't actually attached to the spine of the book. It hangs free, but its wider than the spine and is held in place glued to the cover boards (the front and back of the book) and then 'sealed on' by a more durable sheet of paper glued to the cover boards. The ribbons GW uses are glued into the binding. So they're adding a weakness between the fabric backing and the top of the pages. (The examples I have handy are the 9th ed 'Indomitus' copy, 6th edition 40k BRB and the 8th edition Fantasy BRB. Amusingly enough, my 40k book here has the ribbon glued improperly, its actually folded in half at the points its glued in). Instead of pages glued to the backing, the backing is glued to the ribbon which is glued to the pages, essentially adding more failure points. If its well done, the ribbon can be worked into the backing itself (leaving its surface free), but a quick look at my 40k BRB shows they didn't do that, and pages 180-260 (or so, thanks to the mislaid ribbon) are significantly looser

This is bad, because that's a natural weak point anyway, as any time the book is upright on the shelf, the weight of the pages is pulling at that same spot. And lots of people pull books off shelves incorrectly by putting their finger on the top of the spine and pulling (rather than pushing the adjacent books in slightly and grabbing the middle of the book). Now, the smaller the book is, the less of an issue the weight aspect is, because 96 pages obviously pull (and damages) less than the 400+ page shelfbreakers that are the BRBs.

As far as the ribbon itself goes, when you close the book on a ribbon, you start making imprints on the pages- by design they're supposed to be flush when closed. You're also potentially widening the gaps between the folios (the 8 page bundles that are typically bound together), which again is shifting and weakening the binding. Depending on what material they used for the ribbon itself, it may cause acid damage, or it can pick up contaminants from the table (food, drink, hobby materials, grease and sweat off fingers) and work them into the book.
So you're doing physical damage which will accrue over time and chemical damage as well.

Someone mentioned silk, but even silk has some acidic properties, which tends to increase naturally with age, regardless of preparation of treatment.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/49587328_The_inherent_acidic_characteristics_of_silk_part_II_-_Weighted_silks

Now, given the lifespan of GW books, it really isn't likely to be an issue, unless they went with particularly shoddy options for materials. Stored properly, most won't ever notice unless they start going over the books with magnifying glasses and 'forensic' book tools. I'd personally worry more about the binding. Game books have a tendency to be cheap and dirty bindings, and what they call 'collector's editions' these days aren't materially different from the normal editions.

----
Looking at my Indomitus copy, I can see a difference in the binding at the ribbon and the rest of the pages, and there is already a slight page gap where the ribbon has been resting in the book for the last couple weeks, right at the craftworld eldar showcase. Its even visible when I press the pages together.
The ribbon itself is annoying, as one side is smoothed and the other rough, which probably means its either been treated or is synthetic in the first place (not necessarily bad, but I don't know what the synthetic material is)

Checking over the others, I thought the 6ed rulebook had a similar problem, but no, that was my other book binding bugbear- fold out pages.
I did book repair for two different college libraries some years back. Even though it was a fairly minor part of those jobs, I hold grudges. Longbeards got nothing on people who have to keep books intact when students can just take them off the shelves and do unspeakable things to them.

 Overread wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

So it could be that they printed equal numbers of both, indicating that Deathwatch are more popular. It could be that they only printed a very small number of Deathwatch, which doesn't tell us much other than GW doesn't think there are a lot of deathwatch fans. Or it could be that GW overestimated the popularity of Space Wolves and printed much more of that codex, which outsupplied the immediate demand, resulting in it taking longer to sell out.

Or it could be nothing to do with the popularity of either faction overall, and simply an indication that the current crop of Deathwatch fans are more interested in a collector's edition version of their codex than the current crop of SW fans.

heck for all my years as a Tyranid fan I've never bought a limited edition Tyranid Codex. I've just never felt that a different cover and ribbon bookmark is worth double the price. So yep I'd agree that you could have a very popular army and still not sell out on limited edition codex.


Now if GW went and threw 20 pages of artwork in then I'd be far more likely to want one (at which point I'd be endlessly complaining that GW doesn't print enough of them).

The only ones I bought were the ones with coins, markers, and such.