Necromunda vs 40K lore

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**mrFickle**

So I’ve just seen a bunch of Van Saar gangers flying around on hover boards. Now I get the away from the prying eye of the imperium who knows what a mad genius migh come up with.

But considering anti grav or hover tech has only just been reintroduced by 10k old mega mind Cawl, does it really stand up that GW can inteoduce tech only really seen used by the ancient drukhari?

Do you think this microcosm of the 40K universe is running away with itself?

**beast_gts**

Grav-tech has always existed - just some of it is rare. Marines have Land Speeders (and some have jetbikes), Inquisitors have jetbikes and other things (Ravenor's chair), Servo-skulls, etc.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoiler:

**xerxeskingofking**

plus, its possible that they are using a system that can carry a underweight ganger around inside the hive but hasnt got the power to lift a full Astartes over a battlefield. maybe its actually based on some sort of mag-lev tech and only works if your surrounded by metal? or even that is just something that works against ill-disciplined hive gangs but falls aprat the second you try it against a competent military force with real AA capability?

that, and i was under the impression that forms of anti-grav were used in starship engines and other places, so its a semi-common technology.

**Overread**

Also don't forget its not impossible to trade in Xeno tech. It's just the sort of thing you can only do provided the Inquisition/Marines/Guard don't find out that you're doing it. So a lot of exotic weapons and items can enter use on worlds - either straight xenotech or adaptations based upon xeno technology.

Remember the Imperium counts in million when it starts to consider worlds under its banner. The variety is staggering and within that there is huge scope to not follow the rules. We, in the game, often see the rules being followed because we are dealing with the core military power of the figureheads. In the lore and in side games like Necromunda we see that the "reality" is far more varied, flexible and open to interpretation.

Also don't forget its not impossible for private companies/groups to have more advanced technology than military forces. Militaries have budgets, limitations, training and practical considerations to take into account as well as many other things. Exotic technology like hoverbards might work great in the underhive, but in open war on the galactic scale it might just not be prudent to use on the battlefield; or it might require specialist repair materials; it might be expensive to run on a resource common on Necromunda but otherwise rare outside etc...

There are loads of reasons that a military force might not adopt new technologies at the cutting edge; even before you hit the barrier that the Imperial forces are religiously locked into a system of refusing technological advance. That even using a different scope on your rifle can, with the right official nearby, be grounds for punishment or even execution - even if the replacement is superior in all ways to the original.

With the Imperiums resources and a sane mind, one would expect their military to be near cutting edge; in reality they are near the back end with outdated weapons and equipment that can be superseded. But they've the law of the Imperium behind them; they've the Inquisition ferreting others out; they've a sheer weight of numbers and munitions.

**mrFickle**

beast_gts wrote:
Grav-tech has always existed - just some of it is rare. Marines have Land Speeders (and some have jetbikes), Inquisitors have jetbikes and other things (Ravenor's chair), Servo-skulls, etc.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoiler:

VanSaar have a mostly-functional STC so they can make almost anything, as long as the AdMech don't notice...

Only that guy in the dark angles and it takes DA level skill in secrets to be able to hide certain facts about the ability to maintain and reproduce lost golden age tech from imperium and admech.

I just think that a gang in an inderhive would be found out. The reach of the inquisition and other powers is incredible. I can agree that it might happen but most likely as part of a story in which the imperium comes crashing in. Or that used to be that the case.

I preferred the the first concept of necromunda in which it was a low tech conflict and a las pistol was considered amazing.

Feels like GW just being able say there are no limits in a universe where the protagonists are a facist theocracy that spend a lot of resource apply strict limits to their citizens.

I accept, and welcome, the idea in the under give that strange and unique technology could be invented but I think it’s a bit lazy of GW to go down the hover board route compared to how it is revered in other 40K cannon.

And giving vansaar an STC? I’m gonna do some reading on how they have set this up because that’s a big deal. A bigger deal that making in approved tech or xenos tech. That’s the kind of thing that a crusade would Liam he’d to retrieve and uncover. But the. That’s when the imperium were suffering under 10k years of technical stagnation. Maybe GW aren’t interested in that idea for humanity any more.

**Lord Zarkov**

Grav tech has never been that uncommon, it’s military grave tech that’s super rare.

Presumably it’s the combination of being sufficiently rugged, reliable and suitable strength-to-weight ratio for military purposes that was the sticking point for wider use by marines etc.

Cf any of the more ‘civilian’ oriented books e.g. eisenhorn/ravenor, Shia Calpurnia, some of the Cain books, etc where civilian grav transports are super common amongst the wealthy on the richer worlds. Heck in very early fluff about Necromunda the children of nobles ride around on grav scooters.

That said fancy tech has seemingly got a lot more common in the underhive - gangs seem to be ludicrously better armed then they used to be!

**Lord Damocles**

A more common example of anti-grav tech - servo skulls.

The gangs of Newcromunda are more like paramilitary groups, rather than the back-alley-dwelling nobodies of earlier editions.

**Overread**

I think some of the advances in the lore have allowed more variety of weapons without every gang just having bottles, bows and shotguns and such. Plus they are clearly taking the game further by adding in factions and subfactions that were once only hinted at or only covered in the lore and never appeared in the game.

**mrFickle**

Lord Damocles wrote:
A more common example of anti-grav tech - servo skulls.

The gangs of Newcromunda are more like paramilitary groups, rather than the back-alley-dwelling nobodies of earlier editions.

I suppose you are right, stuff is always floating around now I think about it.

Still these paramilitary groups are at in the underhive, so the advanced nature of what they have should be relative to the nobles at the top of the hive, shouldn’t it?

I also looked at the map in the latest BRB and necromunda is very close to earth, I’d be suprised if it wasn’t under closer scrutiny for heresy than planets further out

**Overread**

The Nobels at the top have access to even better tech = some of which would make a marine look primitive. They've basically almost not limits to money and resources (some of them) so they can buy whatever the ywant - the most advanced toys that would never see a real battlefield.

**Karak Norn Clansman**

This is welcome and does not break the worldbuilding. Overread is on target. aka_mythos on Reddit summed it up well:

aka_mythos wrote:In different novels civilians on some planets have grav vehicles and we aren’t talking about just the most well off. On some worlds it can be produced without STC technology but the Van Saar have a working STC, albeit imperfectly working. As long as they can supply the constituent materials the STC can produce any number of things.

Even in the Necromunda books we’ve had several mentions of anti-grav technology. Mid-hive bratt gangers riding around on jetbikes was mentioned in Book Of Judgement. Grav sleds, being used to move junk.

Remember a suspensor, that thing that everyone can seemingly get for their heavy weapon gangers is in many cases antigrav tech that reduces the effective weight of the weapon. Those square plates around the outer edge of the landspeeder are just higher powered suspensors. If a single suspensor is enough to reduce the weight of a heavy weapon down to a weight comparable with standard sized weapons you’d only need the equivalent to 5 or 6 to have a one person board like these.

The technology is more ubiquitous than landspeeders, throughout the galaxy there are storm troopers and drop troopers that make use of grav chutes. Grav chutes are just more powerful suspensor. For a normal human just two of the anti-grav units are enough to negate the force of high velocity high altitude free fall. More advanced versions are used by Primaris marines, where just 2 seemingly much more powerful units can allow the safe landing of a 1000lbs+ marine.

If the technology is generally available enough for whole regiments of IG to use a version of the tech some guys with an STC can cobble together a working hover board.

In novels “grav cutters” are a thing, atmospheric craft, larger than landspeeders, that use anti-grav tech... The Van Saar probably have those too.

I think it’s also worth mentioning that from the point we got Enforcers and guild alliances this game really moved out from the underhive to the lower parts of the hive proper. GW said at the beginning their intention was to start off in the depths of the underhive and through the books move the game up and out of the hive. We already took the first step, you just weren’t paying attention.

I think there is an argument to be made that if you want to play low level gangs you should restrict everyone to the gangs of the underhive book and only open up the options of these faction books once they advance far enough.

The scale of the galaxy I think is something that's lost on the people that take issue with things like this. There are more civillain speeders than there are Astartes in the galaxy. There are likely more anti-grav civilian craft than there are Valkyries. The simple reality is that craft like a Valkyrie that can hover and fly into and out of atmosphere are more advanced than any grav vehicle.

**Overread**

That point about moving "up hive" makes a lot of sense too. When you read the novels, even the earlier ones, the gangs are all shown to have both low hive scum and mid hive and even upper hive connections through their ranks. These are powerful organisations and whilst they mostly run around in the filth and muck of the underhive and raid the mid hive (which is mostly manufacture/production); they are still able to have access to some fancy toys.

**mrFickle**

So why isn’t everyone in the underhive rocking blot guns? They can’t be hard to make, compared to other tech

**beast_gts**

mrFickle wrote:
So why isn’t everyone in the underhive rocking blot guns? They can’t be hard to make, compared to other tech

In the same way not every modern soldier has a machine gun - they're not that common, they're harder to maintain and there are often better options. You can give all your Palanite Enforcers (the police) bolters if you want, but shotguns and sniper rifles are also options.

**Skinnereal**

I just think that a gang in an inderhive would be found out. The reach of the inquisition and other powers is incredible. I can agree that it might happen but most likely as part of a story in which the imperium comes crashing in. Or that used to be that the case.

There are Enforcers to do that. The Imperial Guard and Space Marines are not worried about civil disturbances in a world that pays its tithe and stays in its own area. The Inquisition might come knocking if a Xeno raid or Chaos insurgence occurs, but day-to-day tech abuse will get ignored.

So why isn’t everyone in the underhive rocking bolt guns? They can’t be hard to make, compared to other tech

Bolt guns are easy enough to make, but ammo is much harder. Also, they're too big for most humans to use. And maintenence takes up a lot of a SM's time. Lasguns, stub guns and autoguns are easy to keep working and use.

**Overread**

Heck lasguns you can recharge the power pack by stuffing it next to any heat source including fire.

For an Underhive that's almost like travelling through the wilderness of a dense jungle of ruined cities that's an ideal weapon type. Sure its not as powerful as a bolt gun, but provided it keeps working you can recharge it very readily.

Also sometimes you don't want a boltgun - you want lighter calibre weapons to kill your opponent, not tear through the support struts and bring the roof down on top of you.

**Voss**

Its also the hunting weapon argument, albeit a bit darker.

Depending on what you're looking for, you don't want to hunt for bits of archeo-tech is a 10 foot radius around an exploded torso, nor do you want bits of organs (for organ harvesters), ruined supplies, or wrecked trade goods.

Plus, yes, portability of the weapon itself and the ammo. And maintenance. Bolters rely on regular supply lines. Other weapons are better for scrounging.

**Karak Norn Clansman**

It should also be noted that the reach of the Imperium is as a rule not incredible. It is on the contrary riddled with limits through ineptitude, corruption, administrative inertia, indifference, inefficiency and infighting.

The Imperium have totalitarian ideals, and in some districts these may come true with surveillance, informants, enforcers and officials maintaining a tight grip on everyone. But for the most part the worlds and void habitats of this colossus on feet of clay is a feudal mess of competing authorities and barely masked warlordism. The holes in the Imperial net are big enough for rampant gang warfare, Genestealer cults, Chaos sects and civil wars to fall through without notice.

Hardly the hallmarks of incredible Imperial reach.

**xerxeskingofking**

as others have said, lasguns have a lot of "soft" benefits that make up for the relative lack of power, most notably they are nearly maintenance free and ammo is very easy to acquire as long as you have power, both of which have great appeal to a hive ganger with uncertain supply lines. a gun that you can pretty much guarantee will work when you need it too is extremely popular with the user (look at all the flak the M-16 got in Vietnam for reliability problems, or the near-religious worship of the AK47 for its ability to be kept running)

Also, its worth pointing out that the Lasguns reputation as being a flashlight is based on its (in)effectiveness in 40K proper, where its shooting Orks, Space Marines, and other inhumanly tough targets. In a hive full of mostly unarmoured humans, it is much more effective at actually hurting people.

**Overread**

Lets not forget the Imperium basically saw the Tau in the stone-age, forgot about them due to an administrative overload and the next time they looked the Tau had advanced to become an intergalactic power.

You see the same thing in the Inquisition novels; ideals and concepts that should be strict law and rules being broken everywhere (many times by the Inquisition itself).

Even single orders/groups within the Imperium have variation in how they conduct themselves and this can lead to huge varieties in what is and is not tolerated.

Then we hit scale - the sheer scale of the Imperium is mindboggling for the average person. It's pretty much beyond our ability to conceptualise the scale and vastness of how many worlds and peoples there are; let alone how you can organise such a system when you avoid computerisation; have a religious mantra style approach to technology use and such.
The Imperium likely cannot function properly since they did away (at large) with "Thinking Machines". The lack of proper AI and the lack of computer advance has likely made it all but impossible to keep up with just the administrative burden.

Heck who knows Necromunda's crimes might well be logged, recorded, filed and left for dealing with. It's just in a huge pile of papers in a draw in an archive in a whole warehouse which his connected to an administrative building for dealing with overflow from the overflow of crimes to be dealt with. Ergo its not that the Imperium hasn't noticed, it just hasn't processed it yet.

**Kcalehc**

Overread wrote:

You see the same thing in the Inquisition novels; ideals and concepts that should be strict law and rules being broken everywhere (many times by the Inquisition itself).

The Inquisition don't break the law, they are the law! (well, till they aren't of course)

Overread wrote:

Heck who knows Necromunda's crimes might well be logged, recorded, filed and left for dealing with. It's just in a huge pile of papers in a draw in an archive in a whole warehouse which his connected to an administrative building for dealing with overflow from the overflow of crimes to be dealt with. Ergo its not that the Imperium hasn't noticed, it just hasn't processed it yet.

Indeed. Given the immense bureaucratic lag in the imperium, I suspect that many criminals may well be tried long after they are dead. The system (mostly) works, it just works very very slowly sometimes.

Grav-tech isn't that rare in the Imperium at all, its just that grav-tech that's of a sufficiently robust nature to be used by the military is. Combat vehicles that can be put out of action by the most minor of dings are not going to be especially popular - even in the IoM with its rather poor regard for the individual fighting man, they still want them to be at least moderately combat effective. Their logistics are hard enough without having to add some esoteric repair components for something that breaks down all the time; and may require very specialized knowledge to repair it.

**Voss**

Overread wrote:

Heck who knows Necromunda's crimes might well be logged, recorded, filed and left for dealing with. It's just in a huge pile of papers in a draw in an archive in a whole warehouse which his connected to an administrative building for dealing with overflow from the overflow of crimes to be dealt with. Ergo its not that the Imperium hasn't noticed, it just hasn't processed it yet.

As an archivist, I gotta say you're underselling it. That's insufficient storage and facility space for the U.S. right now (more along the lines of a single major city and/or state capital), let alone a single hive spire, let alone a hive world.
You're several orders of magnitude too low.

Kcalehc wrote:Indeed. Given the immense bureaucratic lag in the imperium, I suspect that many criminals may well be tried long after they are dead. The system (mostly) works, it just works very very slowly sometimes.

It mostly wouldn't work on a world like Necromunda. The most functional system would be to carve up each level of the hive into many judicial districts and have them function independently. Or go full Judge Dread, and have arrests/trial/sentencing happen on the spot.

**xerxeskingofking**

Voss wrote:
Overread wrote:

Heck who knows Necromunda's crimes might well be logged, recorded, filed and left for dealing with. It's just in a huge pile of papers in a draw in an archive in a whole warehouse which his connected to an administrative building for dealing with overflow from the overflow of crimes to be dealt with. Ergo its not that the Imperium hasn't noticed, it just hasn't processed it yet.

As an archivist, I gotta say you're underselling it. That's insufficient storage and facility space for the U.S. right now (more along the lines of a single major city and/or state capital), let alone a single hive spire, let alone a hive world.
You're several orders of magnitude too low.

Kcalehc wrote:Indeed. Given the immense bureaucratic lag in the imperium, I suspect that many criminals may well be tried long after they are dead. The system (mostly) works, it just works very very slowly sometimes.

It mostly wouldn't work on a world like Necromunda. The most functional system would be to carve up each level of the hive into many judicial districts and have them function independently. Or go full Judge Dread, and have arrests/trial/sentencing happen on the spot.

i think the offical stance is basically a mix of the two, but limited reach.

Large parts of the Hives are effectively free of external judicial oversight, with a somewhat rough and ready local law enforcement of locally appointed sheriffs and such, wild west style, or internal "house" justice enforced by the gangs themselves. While groups like the Enforcers have De Jure authority over the whole hive and anyone in it, their De Facto power is pretty much whatever they can coerce out of the locals, by virtue of their status as a bunch of heavily armed men with authority form Uphive. the average underhive settlement is basically free to tell them to **** off, assuming they have the firepower to make it stick, without too much worry about reprisal if they dont make it a habit. the Adeptus Arbitus themselves arent in the business of chasing "petty" criminals, like murders or such, and only realy intrested in sedition or the Ruinious powers.

it is explicit that no-one knows how big the population of any of the hives of necromunda is, not even to the nearest million, or ten million. the higher ups dont have the means to run an accurate census, and honestly don't care so long as the factories keep churning out goods at the required levels.

**Iracundus**

The Necromunda rulebook said the last attempt at a census got to 1 billion in the upper habitation levels of Trazior Hive before giving up. That was 1 section of 1 hive, and also they were of the well off. The unwashed masses of the main hive and below are beneath individual notice.

The system of Houses for Necromunda is really a microcosm of how the Imperium deals with its worlds, with basically a form of subinfeudation. The Imperial Governor is granted right to rule the planet by the Emperor (through the Adeptus Terra) and in turn, the Imperial Governor grants various rights to the Houses beneath him, in return for their manufactured goods and labor.

By the time you get to the Underhive, the people there are living off-grid and their entire existence is unknown to the powers that be. That said, I do find it a bit incongruous for their to be widespread anti-grav tech at such a substratum. It's the same reason you don't see street gangs driving around main battle tanks as their main rides. Specialized maintenance requirements and too high profile. I could see a Van Saar gang leader having one, but for the entire gang to be like Dark Eldar Hellions? I think that is a bit much...Just as rumors of archeotech filter their way up the hive and attract treasure hunters, I could see rumors of widespread anti-grav tech attracting similar scavengers and eventually the Tech-Priests' attention

**mrFickle**

Iracundus wrote:
The Necromunda rulebook said the last attempt at a census got to 1 billion in the upper habitation levels of Trazior Hive before giving up. That was 1 section of 1 hive, and also they were of the well off. The unwashed masses of the main hive and below are beneath individual notice.

The system of Houses for Necromunda is really a microcosm of how the Imperium deals with its worlds, with basically a form of subinfeudation. The Imperial Governor is granted right to rule the planet by the Emperor (through the Adeptus Terra) and in turn, the Imperial Governor grants various rights to the Houses beneath him, in return for their manufactured goods and labor.

By the time you get to the Underhive, the people there are living off-grid and their entire existence is unknown to the powers that be. That said, I do find it a bit incongruous for their to be widespread anti-grav tech at such a substratum. It's the same reason you don't see street gangs driving around main battle tanks as their main rides. Specialized maintenance requirements and too high profile. I could see a Van Saar gang leader having one, but for the entire gang to be like Dark Eldar Hellions? I think that is a bit much...Just as rumors of archeotech filter their way up the hive and attract treasure hunters, I could see rumors of widespread anti-grav tech attracting similar scavengers and eventually the Tech-Priests' attention

I think your right, eventually you will get noticed by someone who wants what you got or doesn’t like what you got. Even if that’s not the central imperial government. There must be a mechanicum presence on necromunda, a significant one.

Also if van Saar have an STC (in this instance I think it’s the STC production machine or database not just a blue print) then surely they could pump out enough golden age tech to wipe out the rest of the gangs. This is the point of STC, is basically a cornucopia device

**Dysartes**

Overread wrote:
Lets not forget the Imperium basically saw the Tau in the stone-age, forgot about them due to an administrative overload and the next time they looked the Tau had advanced to become an intergalactic power.

Which other galaxy do the Tau have contact with?

**beast_gts**

mrFickle wrote:
Also if van Saar have an STC (in this instance I think it’s the STC production machine or database not just a blue print) then surely they could pump out enough golden age tech to wipe out the rest of the gangs. This is the point of STC, is basically a cornucopia device

It's probably a few reasons:
It's broken and is slowly poisoning them
They don't have the resources (manpower and/or raw material) for a power play
They're trying to not get it noticed by the Arbites / AdMech

**Pacific**

I definitely think there is a difference but you have to go into the background of the games themselves a bit to help understand it. Remember 40k has had a hell of a lot more evolution as a setting than Necromunda. The latter was first releases at the time of 2nd edition 40k, when there were a lot more variety and radical tech options and also the setting had less of a feel of 'anyone who doesn't do this exact thing is heretical' - Squats still existed, heavy plasma weapons, beastmen auxiliaries etc. And Necromunda itself came from Confrontation, which had much more of a 'dark future', late 80s cyberpunk type vibe, a lot of influence from Neuromancer, 2000AD/Judge Dredd etc. So, a very different place to where 40k is now.

I think Necromunda 2018 tried to tie some of the background into a more modern 40k setting but there does still feel like there is a bit of a disparity, because if nothing else it is fleshing out an area of the game universe that you don't normally see in 40k (which I actually think is kind of cool by itself).

In more practical terms, all of these extra weapon and tech options mean that the game designers and sculptors have a lot more room for creativity - and the game can also be made more fun!

**Iracundus**

In the first version of Necromunda, the Van Saar were known for the quality of their goods not necessarily having stuff from an STC that was quite different from what other Houses could do. The difference in quality (small enough to not show up in the granularity of the rules) supposedly allowed them to command a premium price.

**Karak Norn Clansman**

Yes, the original background for the tech-clan known as Van Saar was a boring letdown, while the model design promised better. The new take on it adds so much more to the 40k setting as a whole.

I always found the original background writing for Van Saar to have fallen short of the mark, compared to the other houses. There was such potential for thrilling tech-gadgets and exotic reverse-engineered/preserved-without-interruption archeotech not mastered by the other houses.

Van Saar should be a very dimmed-down little street glimpse of what Dark Age of Technology humans were capable of, compared to much of the rest of the Imperium. Van Saar should still be regressed and fallen from great heights, yet it should nevertheless have preserved more working knowledge of tech and ability to produce more advanced stuff than most other clans, tribes and houses.

Insular tech-clans like that should still exist in the 41st millennium, scattered around, jealously hoarding their assets and staving off the all-pervasive decay in tech and grasp of practical technology construction better than most others. Still superstitious and slowly slipping away, though.

The hidden and flawed STC is a tad daring and cheeky (like so much in 40k; embrace its boldness and exaggeration), but is a way better piece of worldbuilding than the original Van Saar vision. 40k needs its glimpses of Dark Age of Technology remnants and tech hope to bring forth just how rotten the Imperium has truly become.

Warhammer 40'000 would be a lot more boring without daring background like this.