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Good morning folks!

A consistent theme in innumerable great comments on this forum and Reddit about background writings, discussions and doodles which I've posted, is the impression of Warhammer 40'000 having been diluted down and lost its grimdark ways in later years.



Great as the discussion (and compliments, thank you all!) are, I've not got the same impression from what I've seen of 40k in the last years. To my eyes, the state of grimdark seem on the contrary to be healthier and a lot better handled than GW is often given credit for. A few observations about the general drift:

Cawl's secret army of uppity hand next level Astartes is fundamentally a rather cheesy and wish-fulfilling hope-inducing turn of events, for which I remain skeptical (despite a fondness for hidden laboratory mavericks). One thing hasn't changed since 2nd edition: Imperial Space Marines are sold as statuesque glorious heroes as an effective pull on many beginners. Still, Guilliman's impression of the rotten state of the 40k Imperium and his doubts about the Emperor stand out well as good writing, regardless of whether the 30k Imperium is actually portrayed as all that different (apart from religion) in the Horus Heresy novels.

The Sisters of Battle models took the grimdark themes further. The Penitent Engine includes an iron maiden option, and hilariously enough there is even a burning heretic husk for one of their bases.

The new Necromunda drive has been all positive from a grimdark background perspective, with novel cannibal corpse grinder cults (giving a twisted glimpse into corpse recycling for foodstuffs), lord Helmawr's giant drug smuggling operation with Ghast in the Segmentum Solar and all manner of freewheeling dark worldbuilding in the "House of..." books. Necromunda has received substantial expanded background, above what can be expected and likewise true to the demented, bonkers grimdark spirit of the setting.

According to a good friend of mine, an official story on a newly Tau-conquered Human world featured a Genestealer Cult scrambling into an uprising, since they would run a much increased risk of being detected and purged because Tau actually do something called public health care. Thereby continuing the good use of the comparatively milder-seeming Tau as a contrast reinforcer of the rest of the setting's grim darkness in general, and the dysfunctional Imperium's degeneration in particular. Tau remain an underappreciated part of 40k, despite playing up the overall horror, darkness and insanity of most all other factions by themselves seeming naïve and optimistic upstarts thinking they are building a better galaxy in a rational universe. Contrast is key, as Tolkien well knew.



Just a few observations: One would expect an excellently crafted dark setting like 40k to easily dilute and tone down its gloriously demented, cheeky regression in order to pursue a stupid illusion of wider market appeal. What instead seems to go on is a balancing act where grimdark material keeps being expanded upon true to the setting's bonkers spirit in more niche products in particular, while the cash cow and beginner bait of power armour warriors keep being portayed as noble heroes in general to draw people in with a fancy facade and eventually immerse themselves in the grimdark bounty of the wider setting.

Healthy signs, all considered. It could have been a lot worse handled.

Cheers!

The Vigilusbooks featured grimdark aspects as well. Starvation, Imperial incompetence, being shot for looking at the sky, stuff like that.
Also many of the short stories of the Psychic awakening series had grimdark aspects. Custodes shooting Primaris, Tau purging their human allies and so on.

I would say that 40K has lost the All Grimdark, All the Time of yesteryear in favor of nuance. Beneath every shiny veneer is a decaying mechanism lurching onward towards inevitable breakdown. For everything that goes right, three things go wrong. Every victory is pyrrhic in nature.

It was funny to see what the average consumer of 40k thought of that Primaris culling.

Speaks to how while there is plenty of grimdark in the novels and satellite properties it's clear the Imperium isn't being seen for what it really is by many (a particular problem in the human garbage segment of the community)

Something I remember reading from recent fluff in the Kill Team: Rogue Trader boxed set - only 1 in 1000 of mutants detected by the Imperium is allowed to live. It's not clear if that includes Psykers, but it definitely includes Beastmen, which are fielded in armies, so that means that if a child is born intersex or with a cleft palette or something, they're just killed by the Imperium.

We really need some stories of Saint Celestine or Guilliman casually purging some unfortunate kids in a warzone they're moving through to reinforce the idea that these are not good people, they should only be rooted for ironically.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
The Vigilusbooks featured grimdark aspects as well. Starvation, Imperial incompetence, being shot for looking at the sky, stuff like that.

I thought that those are just elements of living in any authoritarian state. The more you know I guess. The book about Cawl and Emperors Scyths was very dark, but I haven't read that many w40k books, which are about 8th-9th ed lore.

I feel like the universe still maintains a grim dark tone while not slapping you in the face constantly.

I think we all got tired of it about the time the Grey Knights started finger painting with the blood of Sisters of Battle, and the studio saw the complaints and backed off of being over the top about it.

OP nailed it. They're trying to cater to old and new fans at once and I think they're doing a pretty solid job at it. Still plenty of grimdark stuff happening in releases geared toward longtime fans.

While i love your degeneration thread Karak.
Old gen x wouldnt be surprised if a door killed you, in fact wed be surprised if it didnt.
But todays gen, tend to over think things, or dont think enough. Just read the regimental standard.
Karaks efforts have been better than what they publish.

artific3r wrote:
OP nailed it. They're trying to cater to old and new fans at once and I think they're doing a pretty solid job at it. Still plenty of grimdark stuff happening in releases geared toward longtime fans.

I think theyre just trying to appeal to the asian market, every since they made dow3. With its apm, bright flashy colours for everything.

Sometimes you have to turn on a light and then have it grow dimmer with time to give the correct dark setting.

Same thing they did with AoS. They started from an impossibly dire situation with the old world, then presented a new world with these shiny gold immortal warriors purging the evil left and right... only to have them decade in later books, until they are now just a part of the grim setting.

Same with Gman and primaries. They gave new hope in a galaxy which was just delaying the inevitable, only to show how these new powerful warriors are getting bent by the galaxy horrors.

Always grim all the time makes for a boring setting. Having ups and downs is much better. At least in my opinion.

I agree that the world is still grimdark and the only thing it has lost is the edgelord veneer that probably reached its zenith in the Matt Ward Grey Knights codex(the SoB snuff lore). The edgelord stuff was just lazy writing and 40.000 is better without it.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

I think we all got tired of it about the time the Grey Knights started finger painting with the blood of Sisters of Battle, and the studio saw the complaints and backed off of being over the top about it.

That wasn't grimdark, though, that was just edginess. Portraying the grey knights as unironic heroes despite being known for massacring civilian populations left, right, and center isn't really what we're talking about. That's more peak theofascist apologia.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I agree that the world is still grimdark and the only thing it has lost is the edgelord veneer that probably reached its zenith in the Matt Ward Grey Knights codex(the SoB snuff lore). The edgelord stuff was just lazy writing and 40.000 is better without it.

Eh, I think that they gloss over how horrible the Imperium is too much for it to be true grimdark. Overall, the Imperium is portrayed too heroically these days.

You can't have Grimdark when the main heroes never, ever die.

 Eldarsif wrote:
I agree that the world is still grimdark and the only thing it has lost is the edgelord veneer that probably reached its zenith in the Matt Ward Grey Knights codex(the SoB snuff lore). The edgelord stuff was just lazy writing and 40.000 is better without it.

Wait what?

There was a comment in another thread about GK routinely expunging SoB convents but it was shouted down.

What's this lore about GK daubing themselves in SoB blood?

Kayback wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I agree that the world is still grimdark and the only thing it has lost is the edgelord veneer that probably reached its zenith in the Matt Ward Grey Knights codex(the SoB snuff lore). The edgelord stuff was just lazy writing and 40.000 is better without it.

Wait what?

There was a comment in another thread about GK routinely expunging SoB convents but it was shouted down.

What's this lore about GK daubing themselves in SoB blood?

for codex grey knights 5th edition. It described a particular incident where Khorne deamons where mucking with a world and drove the entire planet nuts EXCEPT the sisters, whose purity of faith lead them to be unaffected. it was pretty clearly an attempot to provide an example of grey knight grim darkness and the lengths they'll go to to. the internet has been over reacting to it since.

Strange. I see nothing wrong with it. If you need to get a job done you just do it. Why shouldn't the GK harvest the sisters? Sooner or later the position would be overwhelmed, the planet would be lost to the warp and then it would start again on another planet. By harvesting the sisters blood, the GK get the weapon they needed to perform a banishment on a large scale.

I think there's a few things

1) I think a lot of people are similar to myself in that we didn't read the lore back when we first got into the hobby. Oh sure we read the codex and the rulebook, but we didn't read BL books or the wider lore. We were happy with the core books and the lore they presented and the themes that they presented. The grimdark elements were highlighted; we focused on them and we chatted about them with friends - because again we were all referencing the same short stories and clips of info from the rulebook and the codex.

Fastforward and the more we've got into the more of the BL books we've read. We've started to see past the marketing coating of grimdark and dig into the setting a bit more. However what we find isn't the pure grimdark where everything is gritty and dark; we've found some shining gems of light. We've seen victories and good things happen and this confuses those who established a mental narrative of everything being bad. It's not that the setting changed, its that we changed what we exposed ourselves to.


2) I think part of the "grimdark is being lost" is a bit of hyperbol being promoted by some out of a fear-instinct response to the fact that there is somewhat of a sanitising social element going on within society and withing geek areas (which were traditionally set aside from "normal" social influences by their very nature of being geeky and mostly ignored). I won't go far into this comment save to put it out there as one component. I wont' say if its dominate, major or whatever its just there as one aspect for some, not all.

3) Grimdark, at least mature grimdark, needs the light. When everything is hellish and grim and bad those elements actually lose all sense of meaning. Like the cartoon villain who is super evil all the time and only ever pure evil, they actually start to become less evil; less scary; less dark. They enter a subset where they actually appear comical and silly or bland and uninteresting because they have no conflict of character; no complexity.

Instead if you give a Grimdark setting moments of victory and light; if you give them hope then you can take it away later. You can pull the rug out from under the characters and plunge them into a hell that appears even darker and more grim. Just like if you look into the dark only it appears grey, but if you flash a light now and then the darkness gets blacker.


4) There are some who are not content unless something major happens and a faction gets squatted or wiped out or nearly so. Basically people who want the setting to give them what Game of Thrones or Malazan Book of the Fallen or any one of a number of other stories gives them. Thing is if you want that from a game franchise that's tied to physical models you are unlikely to get it ever.
Heroes won't die because people own models of them and they want to play with those heroes on their tabletop games. They don't want to lose the rules for them or see their hero die. And like it or not the lore serves the game and both serve the sales. It's not a failing its just a nature of the beast.

3) Grimdark, at least mature grimdark, needs the light. When everything is hellish and grim and bad those elements actually lose all sense of meaning. Like the cartoon villain who is super evil all the time and only ever pure evil, they actually start to become less evil; less scary; less dark.

I could give you a few example of real life always evil people from the last 200 years, and them being evil 24/7 didn't make their perception any less evil when they were alive, and it doesn't make the perception of them any less evil today. At best there is gradation, but to be honests after some set of numbers you are just evil, and it doesn't matter if you create another 50k extra deaths then someone else.

Karol wrote:
Strange. I see nothing wrong with it. If you need to get a job done you just do it. Why shouldn't the GK harvest the sisters? Sooner or later the position would be overwhelmed, the planet would be lost to the warp and then it would start again on another planet. By harvesting the sisters blood, the GK get the weapon they needed to perform a banishment on a large scale.

Why they did it isn't the problem. It's the fact that its a really dumb idea and reeks of trying too hard to be dark. Why didn't the grey knights just ask if the sisters would donate blood? Why slaughter them? Its also contradictory because such a slaughter would please Khorne and make the forces stronger if anything.

Honestly I don't care about 40k fluff that much. I will say I feel like GW are moving in a direction that is removing a lot of ambiguity about the setting. They've been consistently portraying the Emperor as definitely an donkey-cave for a while now and removing a lot of subtlety from Chaos. Nuance and shades of grey that made the setting GrimDark are getting less and less emphasised in favor of extremes. Hm. Maybe its not 40k getting more NobleBright and real life getting more GrimDark by comparison.

one thing about grimdark is is faction A ALWAYS loses, then it means faction B ALWAYS wins. So the grimdark is, essentially satlemate and nothing but Phyrric victories.

I feel like what we're really seeing is the "cartoonification" of the setting. It's always had that to one degree or another, but with GW wanting to push further and further into the "mainstream public", I think they're deliberately shifting the tone to something they feel will translate better to a wider audience.
evi

Just a few observations: One would expect an excellently crafted dark setting like 40k to easily dilute and tone down its gloriously demented, cheeky regression in order to pursue a stupid illusion of wider market appeal. What instead seems to go on is a balancing act where grimdark material keeps being expanded upon true to the setting's bonkers spirit in more niche products in particular, while the cash cow and beginner bait of power armour warriors keep being portayed as noble heroes in general to draw people in with a fancy facade and eventually immerse themselves in the grimdark bounty of the wider setting.

I have to disagree with this. There really isn't a "balancing act" happening here. As an old gorgnard who's played since RT, I am comfortable saying that the Grimdark as we knew it, is dead. Well and truly buried. The Dark Imperium books are perfect examples, as is Cawl and his never ending supply of Super Marines. You can see where they have TRIED to balance it, but it isn't working. Having read almost all of the new 40k novels that have come out since the end of 7th, most of the new stuff falls into two categories -

1. And thus it was that the Primarch returned to the Imperium, resplendent in victory and ever watchful should the forces of evil rise once again. With his faithful sidekick Cawl producing new and ever more baffling technologies at will, and with an endless supply of Primaris marines, the tide is turning. World after world has been liberated and there is no end in sight to the Primarch's glory or Cawl's genious. The universe has never been more dark, and mankind has never been closer to defeat. The end.

2. I like to call this one "We liked it so much when we did it the first time that we're running it back again because the manatees that pick our storylines went on holiday for a bit". This basically devolves into "Firstborn marines are introduced to Primaris for the first time. Yaddayaddayadda - 100 pages later - "Are we the new Thunderwarriors?". The end.

I'd actually be totally fine if they changed the tone in a more authentic manner. "yes - the Cicatrix Maledictum is a huge problem, but for the first time since the Emperor was placed on the throne - there is hope." You could play on that hope to set a REALLY grimdark payoff later, OR just go with it and actually change the tone so that there really is some genuine hope. What they're doing now sits on a line and does neither side any justice. The things you point out as grimdark in Necromunda and with the sisters are actually pretty tame by traditional "grimdark standards". What made the older stuff so good was seeing the struggle despite the fact that pretty much everyone was already pretty much boned. It was just a matter of time. The Imperium was on its last legs. Marine chapters were slowly dying out, Chaos was encroaching more and more. The Eldar didn't have much time as they had essentially already died out, etc etc. They've undone all of that. Heck - Abbadon finally WON a Black Crusade, and all he managed to do was set the Imperium up for an unprecedented time of prosperity and success. I feel like they need to lean harder in one direction or the other, and stop trying to ride the line, because it's not working for me at all.

Its not too long ago that voices clamoured for the movement of 40ks doom clock to edge closer to midnight. The setting had gotten 'stale' for some with the same tale told over and over.

There were also voices wanting a move to more gritty realism over cartoon villainy in the form of Abaddon/Chaos and especially the Orks.
Vague background tales were imbued with imaginary nuance by some fans and indeed GW staff. The thirst to learn more and to cash in lead to a quagmire of literature preceding the leaden stalemate that is M41.

Eldar have been dying for some time.
Necrons have set the alarm to snooze for a number of years.
Tyranids...........are still just picking at stale rolls while trying to catch the waiters eye.
Chaos are operating just as planned.
Orks....have started down Abaddons well trodden path. The Beast almost did it (high five buddy! woooo!)
Tau...are somehow a technologically advanced backwater.

The Imperium just is.
They bring a newly resurected Primarch You bring a wider gash in the materium.

Baal, and therefore the Blood Angels were on the verge of extinction.
Fenris, Ditto (Kind of).
Space Marine Chapters almost wiped out.
Important Hive and Forge Worlds overrun.

All the while the Hyper Violent Bargezi (TM) are kept at bay, just..............

Effectively the Grimdark is just as it was 20 years ago, except there is vastly more poorly written garbage out there trying to portray this supposed knife edge of existence.

Tycho wrote:
I feel like what we're really seeing is the "cartoonification" of the setting. It's always had that to one degree or another, but with GW wanting to push further and further into the "mainstream public", I think they're deliberately shifting the tone to something they feel will translate better to a wider audience.
evi

Just a few observations: One would expect an excellently crafted dark setting like 40k to easily dilute and tone down its gloriously demented, cheeky regression in order to pursue a stupid illusion of wider market appeal. What instead seems to go on is a balancing act where grimdark material keeps being expanded upon true to the setting's bonkers spirit in more niche products in particular, while the cash cow and beginner bait of power armour warriors keep being portayed as noble heroes in general to draw people in with a fancy facade and eventually immerse themselves in the grimdark bounty of the wider setting.

I have to disagree with this. There really isn't a "balancing act" happening here. As an old gorgnard who's played since RT, I am comfortable saying that the Grimdark as we knew it, is dead. Well and truly buried. The Dark Imperium books are perfect examples, as is Cawl and his never ending supply of Super Marines. You can see where they have TRIED to balance it, but it isn't working. Having read almost all of the new 40k novels that have come out since the end of 7th, most of the new stuff falls into two categories -

1. And thus it was that the Primarch returned to the Imperium, resplendent in victory and ever watchful should the forces of evil rise once again. With his faithful sidekick Cawl producing new and ever more baffling technologies at will, and with an endless supply of Primaris marines, the tide is turning. World after world has been liberated and there is no end in sight to the Primarch's glory or Cawl's genious. The universe has never been more dark, and mankind has never been closer to defeat. The end.

2. I like to call this one "We liked it so much when we did it the first time that we're running it back again because the manatees that pick our storylines went on holiday for a bit". This basically devolves into "Firstborn marines are introduced to Primaris for the first time. Yaddayaddayadda - 100 pages later - "Are we the new Thunderwarriors?". The end.

I'd actually be totally fine if they changed the tone in a more authentic manner. "yes - the Cicatrix Maledictum is a huge problem, but for the first time since the Emperor was placed on the throne - there is hope." You could play on that hope to set a REALLY grimdark payoff later, OR just go with it and actually change the tone so that there really is some genuine hope. What they're doing now sits on a line and does neither side any justice. The things you point out as grimdark in Necromunda and with the sisters are actually pretty tame by traditional "grimdark standards". What made the older stuff so good was seeing the struggle despite the fact that pretty much everyone was already pretty much boned. It was just a matter of time. The Imperium was on its last legs. Marine chapters were slowly dying out, Chaos was encroaching more and more. The Eldar didn't have much time as they had essentially already died out, etc etc. They've undone all of that. Heck - Abbadon finally WON a Black Crusade, and all he managed to do was set the Imperium up for an unprecedented time of prosperity and success. I feel like they need to lean harder in one direction or the other, and stop trying to ride the line, because it's not working for me at all.

My personal head canon is that it's all a front. Guilliman knows that the Imperium is screwed beyond saving and that there's no hope. He puts on a front so that the people around him don't lose morale and maybe humanity can survive in a tiny corner of the galaxy for a few more millenia. He personally hates what the Imperium has become and he hates himself for allowing it to continue and leading them on but his perceived obligations to his brothers and his father force him to keep fighting. The Imperium has fallen they just don't know it yet.

I basically ignore anything to do with Chaos because its all such cartoonishly evil nonsense at this point. I like my Chaos to be creeping and subtle not bombastic and obvious. Tyranids will eat everything eventually. Necrons I still pretend are enslaved soul harvesters instead of cranky retired pokeman trainers, the Tau are following the same road as Eldar and humanity but faster, orks are orks.

The great thing about 40k being a setting is that I can cover GWs cartoonish waffle with my own stuff. It may not be better to some but its better to me and thats all that matters.

It’s not nearly as grim dark as it used to be. The original setting was heavily borrowed from other works, especially dune.

GW have clearly found that the grim dark setting in which the central seat of the empire can control the imperium thus forcing a state stagnation is commercially restrictive. Especially as the global market has grown. They clearly want a universe in which anything is possible Rather than all of humanity being restricted by the Jack boot of the imperium

I think GW are now more interested in appealing to cultural trends than sticking to their own thematic decisions.

I’d say we’re more gothic than grim dark these days as far as the humans go which means we’re still connected to the 40K routes. With a heavy overlay of steamy cyber punk.

Primaris are superficially more heroic than the old marines and I think they borrow from some of the marvel cinematic universe aesthetic.

God know how they came up the vehicle designs though.

But it couldn’t stay the same forever and in current GW literature is point out that we are right at the End of the 40K millennium. Maybe they are setting up for more change.

 Sim-Life wrote:


Why they did it isn't the problem. It's the fact that its a really dumb idea and reeks of trying too hard to be dark. Why didn't the grey knights just ask if the sisters would donate blood? Why slaughter them? Its also contradictory because such a slaughter would please Khorne and make the forces stronger if anything.

.

Because you don't ask those lower then you to do your job? Can you imagine police or military in RL coming anywhere and telling locals to let them do their work? It would be madness and it wouldn't work. Plus time is of the essence. It is better to do it fast and be efficient about it then go in to the whole explaining thing . How would it even work, GK lore is for GK only they don't share it even with the inquisition, sharing the knowladge with someone you are going to kill anyway would just be a waste of time.

mrFickle wrote:
It’s not nearly as grim dark as it used to be. The original setting was heavily borrowed from other works, especially dune.

GW have clearly found that the grim dark setting in which the central seat of the empire can control the imperium thus forcing a state stagnation is commercially restrictive. Especially as the global market has grown. They clearly want a universe in which anything is possible Rather than all of humanity being restricted by the Jack boot of the imperium

I think GW are now more interested in appealing to cultural trends than sticking to their own thematic decisions.

I’d say we’re more gothic than grim dark these days as far as the humans go which means we’re still connected to the 40K routes. With a heavy overlay of steamy cyber punk.

Primaris are superficially more heroic than the old marines and I think they borrow from some of the marvel cinematic universe aesthetic.

God know how they came up the vehicle designs though.

But it couldn’t stay the same forever and in current GW literature is point out that we are right at the End of the 40K millennium. Maybe they are setting up for more change.

Yeah, 40k is a lot less like Dune these days. Hoping it ends up more like Lexx and less like Red Dwarf.

I thought it would have shifted more by now, honestly.

mrFickle wrote:
It’s not nearly as grim dark as it used to be. The original setting was heavily borrowed from other works, especially dune.

GW have clearly found that the grim dark setting in which the central seat of the empire can control the imperium thus forcing a state stagnation is commercially restrictive. Especially as the global market has grown. They clearly want a universe in which anything is possible Rather than all of humanity being restricted by the Jack boot of the imperium

Except its much more so now, than it was in the start. The 'default' setting presented in the original Rogue Trader book was a star cluster (the Lost Worlds) frequently cut off by the Eye of Terror (which wasn't a terrible chaos-only zone), where Imperial influence was at best intermittent, and often entirely cut off. The example location was Logans World, a crazy place with competing guilds and xenos raiders, and a lot more open trade and interaction between factions, the Imperium proper only showing up every 4-10 years.

The current setting is a lot more restrictive and commercially stagnant than it was originally.

 techsoldaten wrote:


Yeah, 40k is a lot less like Dune these days. Hoping it ends up more like Lexx and less like Red Dwarf.

I thought it would have shifted more by now, honestly.

Lexx? Surely that's what Raging Heroes are all about, at least miniature wise.

Somehow I can't see GW's lore ever getting close to Lexx in terms of sexual themes and such. In fact they generally leave it well alone.

Karol wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:


Why they did it isn't the problem. It's the fact that its a really dumb idea and reeks of trying too hard to be dark. Why didn't the grey knights just ask if the sisters would donate blood? Why slaughter them? Its also contradictory because such a slaughter would please Khorne and make the forces stronger if anything.

.

Because you don't ask those lower then you to do your job? Can you imagine police or military in RL coming anywhere and telling locals to let them do their work? It would be madness and it wouldn't work. Plus time is of the essence. It is better to do it fast and be efficient about it then go in to the whole explaining thing . How would it even work, GK lore is for GK only they don't share it even with the inquisition, sharing the knowladge with someone you are going to kill anyway would just be a waste of time.

You're conflating bad writing with bad fluff. The circumstances and reasons of grey knights killing the sisters doesn't matter, the fluff is just bad.

Its like this; Twilight is a crap book. All the individual elements of Twilight come together to make it crap. You can give reasons for why certain things in it make sense within the book, but overall its still a load of gak. Same thing here. The grey knight/sister fluff section is crap. The reasoning behind why they did what they did can be argued out but overall the fluff section is garbage. If I became a fluff writer and said "then one day the Emperor woke up an willed an anime waifu into existence and revealed he'd been browsing the M02 internet for memes for 10,000 years" it would be awful. I can give reasons as to why it makes sense, but it would still be awful.

The black and white art design/illustrations remain pretty consistent throughout 40k history ... however the adult swim / Rick and Morty style of artwork that has crept its way into the branding is simply terrible and lazy.

If one compares that to the work being put out by interesting manga and anime studios it truly is night and day.

The 40K crew would greatly benefit from working closer with the age of sigmar team. AOS outclasses 40K artwork in every category, by a large margin imo.