The 2 lost primarchs.

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**Ketara**

Ketara wrote:
To pull out from an earlier dissection of mine on the Missing Primarchs:-

Known Facts:-

-Sanguinius was scared that the genetic flaw of the Black Thirst being revealed would cause his legion to be destroyed. The logical conclusion is that some biological flaw must have occurred regarding one of the lost legions to base that assumption on.
- Both were destroyed in between the years 30,840 (the Finding of Lion El'Jonson) & 31,560 (The Drop Site Massacre). This means that one of them was potentially destroyed before the finding of Perturabo, Mortarion, Curze, Angron, Lorgar and the Khan.
-That the Space Wolves were involved in the destruction of at least one legion.
-That one of the Primarchs was considered 'Lost' before he was even found by the Emperor. We know this because the Emperor dismissed two of the Primarchs as being a bad subject matter when he found Corax, even though he'd only found one of the Missing Primarchs at that time (according to the official BL order of finding leaked by Laurie Goulding).
-Vulkan used the word 'Sanction' when describing what happened to the Missing Primarchs. This would appear to imply at least one of them disobeyed the Emperor.
-It is stated that a Black Scroll has been dispatched by Malcador to a Legion's homeworlds only twice before, the implication being for the dissolution of a Legion.
-Book seven of the Horus Heresy says that entire Legions were lost in the Rangdan Xenocides, which took place in the 30,860's.
-Guilliman stated that two of his Brothers 'Failed' whilst the rest ''turned' on the Emperor. So it is unlikely that the two went into open rebellion against the Emperor prior to their destruction as he very clearly distinguishes between the two things.
-Cawl declares that the destroyed Legions were not at fault, nor was their geneseed, but the Primarchs (or their actions).
-There is a stated rumour that the Ultramarines grew large at the time one of the other Legions vanished. This has been stated by the author to have just been stuff he was making up as he went along and a rumour as opposed to anything canon. But still worthy of note (as the Universe exists independent of any individual author).

So. With all of those facts; we can draw up something of a hypothesis relating to both of them.

The first 'Missing' Primarch disobeyed and 'failed' the Emperor in some irrevocable way which required sanctioning/disciplining. Judging by the fact that he went missing before the finding of Corax, the timeline means that this Primarch must have been the head of the Legion destroyed during the Rangdan Xenocide.

What do we know about the Rangdan Xenocide? We know that the Space Wolves and Dark Angels had to purge the 'bio' taint of the Rangdan Cerabvores subsequently,leaving whole sectors lifeless (never the optimal solution); which means that the Rangdan Cerabvores had some way of irrevocably infecting biological organisms. As we know that this Primarch wasn't an out and out rebel (thanks Lorgar), and the Black Scroll of Doom/Ending has been delivered before, this Primarch and his Legion must have been willingly/knowingly sacrificed over the course of the campaign. Now this could be either because they were already tainted by the Rangdan Cerabvores from an earlier disobedience by the Primarch (the most likely scenario given that no other Legions were allowed to perish entirely), or that the Emperor otherwise deliberately sacrificed them because he was so hacked off at them.

Their 'sanctioning', in other words, likely took the form of a suicide run. Depending on the form that the bio-taint of the Cerabvores took (so if it involved subverting or taking control of organisms), this could potentially be where the Space Wolves gained their experience fighting other marines (exterminating their remnants).

The second Missing Primarch on the other hand, was evidently compromised before he was found. He isn't regarded as having 'turned on' the Emperor (thanks again Guilliman) likely for the very simple reason that he never joined the Emperor to begin with. Whilst the author later disclaimed the story of another legion being folded into the ultramarines; this would actually be a good reason for a Legion to have been handed a Black Scroll and disbanded. Whether it was because he was the leader of an alien confederation, had already rejected the Emperor psychically, or was warp tainted to the extreme (invent your own reason), the Emperor knew this gent was never going to be a part of the Imperium before he managed to track him down. So the ready built Legion waiting for him would have needed breaking up and dispersing.

We actually have some new fragments since the above was written.

-Horus getting angry at Malcador's elimination of the statues, indicating that whatever happened to them, the other Primarchs didn't consider it dishonourable. This fits with the first missing primarch theory above, and considerably refines the latter one, as Dorn also reminisces about the two of them as being 'tragedies'. So whatever compromised the second Primarch, it wasn't something out and out distasteful to the other Primarchs. So he probably wasn't leading other armies against the Emperor or the like. He might have been warp tainted somewhow, fought the emperor in single combat, lobotomised and turned into some kind of sevitor, who knows?
-They've actually confirmed that the legionnaires of at least one of the destroyed legions were mindwiped and reassigned. This confirms what was originally just a random piece of Ultramarines gossip invented ad hoc by an author as now being canon. It also lines up well with one of the Primarchs being lost before he could join his legion.

Looks like I might have to incorporate that section on Goulding in the future; it certainly seems like a good source for the name!

**Ketara**

Pacific wrote:
Thanks Ketara - that's a really interesting summary! Quite a lot in there that I hadn't heard of read before.

-That one of the Primarchs was considered 'Lost' before he was even found by the Emperor.

Why would that Primarch have a status raised in their honour if that was the case? It would have been just 19 statues (going on the short story @ph34r referenced)

I honestly couldn't say. Putting the timeline pieces together, we know that the Emperor knew Unknown Primarch #2 was 'lost' before he was found (likewise, Guilliman's comment reinforces that he didn't actively betray/turn on the Emperor). It's almost certain that his Legion was merged into Guilliman's (two references in-series). And as you say, the conversation with Malcador implies that he certainly didn't perish in a dishonourable way.

We could devise many scenarios. For example, perhaps he died leading a coalition of humans against a Xenos threat, and his death rippled through the Warp? Perhaps he was killed so that Malcador or another high ranking contact could escape a mutual foe? I could come up with other reasons, but it's clearly plausible. We just don't have any other pieces right now to go off to add detail.

I suppose the Graham McNeil/Laurie Goulding fan campaign/narrative piece could tie up with Rangdan. Given a choice between execution and death in battle 'Mal' (as his friends call him) is allowed a final assault on that species as part of that campaign.

I read quite an interesting piece once about Feudal Japan, where disgraced nobility and their wards were allowed to carry out a suicidal charge in battle as an alternative to Sepuku. Perhaps something like that?
That would also explain Horus' (quite angry) reaction to Malcador removing their statues, if they were perceived to have been lost or defeated in some honourable fashion (or something that he, as a warrior, deemed honourable).
He would hardly have had that reaction if the other Primarch had been treasonous, or had just been some 'foe' at the head of an alien empire that had fought the Emperor rather than side with him (although in that instance he wouldn't have had a status there in the first place).

Vulkan's reference to a 'Sanction' and Sanguinius' fear of destruction from biological imperfection come from the mysterious Missing Primarch #1 (or 'Mal'). Given that we have a time period/war for his destruction (the bio-taint of the Rangdan), it's not a stretch to link it all together. So I completely agree.

We know that the Emperor deployed the Dragon to finally settle the Xenocides, but as you say, a suicide run from the infected legion would be a perfect glorious finish for them. Perhaps as cover, or perhaps to smuggle the Dragon in? Who knows. A sacrifice like that would certainly cement his place of honour in the other Primarch's memories. Given that it would have involved the destruction/tainting of a Legion in the early days of the Crusade though, it wouldn't be a sacrifice the leadership would want widely known.

**Ketara**

The_Grim_Angel wrote:

The obliteration of the second and of the eleventh primarch should have take place shortly after the finding of Lion El'Jonson (848M30), because Mago (Centurion of the Eighteenth Company of the World Eaters) said during the Ghenna Massacre (900M30): "This road will kill us all. Everything we are -- the brotherhood, the nobility -- all of it will be erased. History will never know what we once were, only what you would have us become. A horde of marauding berserkers, driven by nothing save the impulse to spill blood. Reavers and murderers, not warriors. How long do you think you can live as monsters before you force the Emperor to act? How long before the Eaters of Worlds join the others, the forgotten and the condemned?"
So we can be reasonably sure about when they were been expunged and we can also state only one of them was condemned/purged by the Emperor, while the other was lost/forgotten for some reason, but he wasn't a traitor.

Let's pin it down a bit more. The Goulding list of discovery was as follows:-

Spoiler:

El' Jonson was found in 848.M30. The second Xenocide was 862-882, whilst third Rangdan Xenocide was in the 890's. The quote you give is in 900. Corax can't have been found any earlier than 865, as that was when the Khan was found (and he's a few Primarchs above Corax in the discovery order).

Working on the (firmly established) basis that the first Missing Primarch died in the Xenocides, this makes it likely that he died in the second Xenocide. It might also explain why the Space Wolves had the experience of fighting tainted brothers (the remnants of his tainted legion might have survived on the Rangda side to the third Xenocide). The II Legion Primarch would also be the likely candidate for being the 'forgotten' one, as the survivors of the second Xenocide were generally sworn to secrecy.

That in turn makes it likely that our second unknown Primarch, the one who was 'lost' before he even joined the Imperium, would be classified as the 'Condemned'. If the date you've cited is correct, he clearly died in between Corax's finding date, and 900. M30. So the two died anything between ten to thirty years apart in (roughly) 870-900.M30. The first Missing Primarch likely (this is now rough speculation) at the culmination of the Second Xenocide in 882.M30, and the second Missing Primarch between 883-899. M30.

**Ketara**

The_Grim_Angel wrote:
Ketara wrote:
[…]
Let's pin it down a bit more. The Goulding list of discovery was as follows:-

Spoiler:

[…]
Corax

[DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS]

Alpharius

El' Jonson was found in 848.M30. The second Xenocide was 862-882, whilst third Rangdan Xenocide was in the 890's. The quote you give is in 900. Corax can't have been found any earlier than 865, as that was when the Khan was found (and he's a few Primarchs above Corax in the discovery order).
[…]

There is an inconsistency among the sources: in the novel "Deliverance lost" the Emperor say to Coras he has 17 brother and Corax ask how it can be possible, because he know he has 19 brother, then the Emperor, with a "bleak and filled of deep sorrow" face answers: «This is a conversation for another day». This suggest Corax was found after the obliteration of the two lost primarch.

I've run into this before and addressed it above. It's not actually an inconsistency. All it means is that the Emperor knew that one of his sons ('the condemned') was lost to him before he was 'found'. The Emperor could know that through intercepted communications, warp signature, rogue trader sources, or any number of other things.

For example (imaginary scenario), the 'Condemned' might have been a psychic that was found criminally guilty of something in a surviving human empire; who then got lobotomised and wired into a machine make a mini-Astronomican or something for them. The Emperor found out through both his own senses and information communicated by informal contacts before he sent the marines in to conquer the place. The result? Corax is technically 'found' before the 'Condemned' was ; but the Emperor still knows what happened and knows that the 'Condemned' is lost to him in order to communicate it to Corax.

**Ketara**

The_Grim_Angel wrote:

I think it is a too convolute theory that open a greater inconsistency than the one it tries to solve: how could the Emperor knows one of his sons was lost without having very precise information about him?In fact it is stated that the Emperor took so long time to find out all the primarchs, because he was only able to feel they were still alive and nothing else. :

It's really not that convoluted. The Emperor learned (by whatever means) that one of his sons was beyond retrieval and integration prior to their finding. It's not any more convoluted than me learning my brother was in a car accident before I get to see it with my own two eyes.

It should be borne in mind that the 'finding' list refers to their first meeting face to face with the Emperor, not necessarily the moment he learned where they were, or the moment they met an Imperial agent of some sort. Break it into four steps.

The Emperor finds out unknown primarch is completely screwed in some unspecified way -> Emperor meets Corax and communicates this fact -> Emperor gets on spaceship -> Emperor meets screwed up Unknown Primarch who then dies subsequently for unspecified reason.

Simple four steps. No inconsistencies required. No convoluted theory needed. The timelines all match and everything is hunky dory.

What's interesting is what might have happened to this Primarch to ruin him so absolutely prior to his 'meeting' the Emperor. Like I said, it could be that he was lobotomised and plugged into some kind of device, but I can think of several other things. The real clue is in the name though, the 'Condemned'. That's the word to chew over for a hint.

**Ketara**

The_Grim_Angel wrote:
That is the point: why erase every record about that primarch and his legion, if that primarch de facto never became the primarch of his legion?

Because it was something that undermined the morals/principles of the Great Crusade and/or faith in the infallibility of its top brass. Dictatorships struggle if enough people think the guy at the top is an idiot or plain wrong. The number of people who jumped to join Horus overnight proved that much.

Furthermore, it's now been substantiated that marines from one Legion did get mindwiped and reassigned to another one. Given that one of the missing Legions was 100% eliminated in the Xenocides (that's established), that means it's the other missing one that got shifted across (barring some crazy revelation about Word Bearers being turned into Space Wolves or something). It also directly supports one Missing Primarch never even taking command of his Legion (his Legion would need breaking up after he died).

Actually my theory about the genestealer contamination doesn't contradict your theory about the primarch, "who was lost before to be found", because a primarch who is the patriarch of a genestealer cult is lost before to be found.

Sure. I doubt it was warp taint (that would have prewarned the other Primarchs who were oblivious to the Chaos threat). That leaves some form of irreversible biological compromise (be it Xenos or otherwise), or just a plain old refusal to join the Emperor (a Primarch who refuses to assimilate is a major threat). Either one would merit the title 'The Condemned'.

To me, I'm inclined to think it's the last one. Why? Because Horus and his brothers wouldn't have cared about him otherwise. Xenos taint or lobotimisation is dishonourable. Falling in glorious battle in defence of his own Empire/ideals, is a far more respectable fate, even if you were the ones who put him in the ground.

**Ketara**

The_Grim_Angel wrote:
Ketara wrote:
The_Grim_Angel wrote:
That is the point: why erase every record about that primarch and his legion, if that primarch de facto never became the primarch of his legion?

Because it was something that undermined the morals/principles of the Great Crusade and/or faith in the infallibility of its top brass. Dictatorships struggle if enough people think the guy at the top is an idiot or plain wrong. The number of people who jumped to join Horus overnight proved that much.
[…]

In that case I think it would be simpler to record: «Died before his discovery.» (or «Never found.»), without erase his legion, mind-wipe his legionaries and rewrite all the imperial records.
By the way I'm not arguing with you, because I want prove I'm right, but because I'm working on the stories of the Lost, the Purged and the False Primarch and this discussion is very helpful to understand what points of these stories I have to improve.

I'll be frank, there's not much to argue with. I'm just providing the pieces we've been shown thus far. Let me separate things out a little more.

As things stand, with the existing lore (Corax's finding/Goulding list), the Emperor knew one of the missing primarchs (we'll call him 'B') was of no use to him before the Emperor physically met (or 'found') B. Guilliman also in his recollections (40K era) also very deliberately separated both Missing Primarchs (A+B) from the Traitors (meaning that they didn't betray the Emperor after joining the Imperium). Those are the facts as things stand.

Likewise, we know that one of the Missing Legions was mindwiped and transferred. Malcador states this unequivocally to Dorn, who doesn't argue with it. Elsewhere, we also definitively know that 'whole Legions were destroyed' in the Rangdan Xenocides. That's written as a third party perspective and so beyond in-universe bias. So it is established that one Missing Legion was destroyed in the Xenocides and one was mindwiped and moved elsewhere. That's established fact until retconned.

Lining up these facts, it is impossible that the Legion destroyed in the Xenocides could have belonged to the Missing Primarch B. Why?

A)The timelines don't really match.
B) Primarch B never 'betrayed' the Emperor and was written off before he even met the Emperor. There's really no way therefore he could be commanding a Legion in the Xenocides.

Ergo, we know that B's Legion was the Legion that was mindwiped. Which makes sense. The Primarch was never going to command them (being dead and all), so why would you want to keep the force structure in place?

The bits that are up for debate are:-

(a) How the Emperor knew Primarch B was of no use to him before he met him,
(b) What happened to Primarch B to ruin him so utterly as a prospect,
(c) How Primarch B died,
(D) Which Legion Primarch B's Legion was reassigned to,
(E) What the hell happened to Primarch A in the Xenocides to kill him and taint his entire Legion.

**Ketara**

The_Grim_Angel wrote:
Ketara wrote:
[…]
Ergo, we know that B's Legion was the Legion that was mindwiped. Which makes sense. The Primarch was never going to command them (being dead and all), so why would you want to keep the force structure in place?
[…]

Again why do mind-wipe them, instead to simply say: «I'm sorry, but your Primarch is dead, so we need to put you under the command of the Ultramarines»? This is the only thing I have problems to understand.

I couldn't say. We can deduce (using the facts provided and basic logic) that Primarch B's Legion was the one which was broken up and mindwiped. But why exactly that was I just don't know. It could be for simple force organisation reasons. It could be to try and hide his existence altogether. It could be because the Emperor worried about the Legion's loyalty if they found out the details of their Primarch's death. It could be all three. Who knows? Not me.

All we do know is that they were mindwiped and reassigned after Primarch B corked it. You can headcanon your own reason why.

(Primarch B is the one found before Alpharius. Which number Legion would have been his, I've no idea)

**Ketara**

It should be noted that it would be Primarch A (Xenocide boy) who located the Ymga Monolith, as Primarch B (lost before found) would never have been in a position to lead an Imperium sponsored expedition.

**Ketara**

Musselman wrote:
Ketara wrote:
It should be noted that it would be Primarch A (Xenocide boy) who located the Ymga Monolith, as Primarch B (lost before found) would never have been in a position to lead an Imperium sponsored expedition.

It has been stated that... all 20 primarchs were given command of their legion.

Source? And is it dated since the Heresy got rebooted? Because if not, it's been retconned.

**Ketara**

The_Grim_Angel wrote:
Ultramarines Codex; second edition page 7 if I'm not wrong.

Yeah.....it's clearly been retconned then.