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what are your theories and ideas about the 2 expunged primarchs?
me: the 1st lost primarch was actually the first to fall to chaos,the 2nd one was the one that fought agaisnt them. the emperor expunged both the legions and primarchs so no one will know the chaos thing
i know,its a bad theory with probably a lot of holes,but i like it
I don't think that theory is credible because it need a really good explanation to justify why only those legions where expunged. In my humble opinion the best hint is given to us by the novel "Fear to tread", in which Horus ask to Sanguinius why he don't goes to the Emperor and ask for help against the Red Thirst and Sanguinius answer: «You know the reason! [...] I will not be responsible for the erasure of the Blood Angels from Imperial history. I will not have a third empty plinth beneath the roof of the Hegemon as my Legion's only memorial!» Moreover in the Reboute Guilliman says: «I was one of twenty. Two failed. Half the rest turned on my father.» and in the same novel Cawl Inferior says to Reboute: «The warriors were not at fault. The science is not at fault. Their Primarchs were. Chapters from your gene-line have also fallen in the past millennia, lord regent, and we do not censor them».
So I think the second Primarchs was expunged because he failed the specific mission the Emperor gave to him and his legion, while the eleventh one was expunged due to an apparently catastrophic genetic flaw in his geneseed; I will not tell you more, because I'm gathering material and ideas for write the stories of their destinies.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/29 21:25:07
im quite partial to an idea floated on a Facebook group i'm in as a joke, namely that the two missing primarchs landed on ork held worlds, and, like all but one of their brothers, rose to the top and took control of thier worlds and powerful Warbosses. they were eventually found and killed by the expanding Great Crusade, but are remembered in orkish folk-lore as Gork and Mork.....
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
xerxeskingofking wrote: im quite partial to an idea floated on a Facebook group i'm in as a joke, namely that the two missing primarchs landed on ork held worlds, and, like all but one of their brothers, rose to the top and took control of thier worlds and powerful Warbosses. they were eventually found and killed by the expanding Great Crusade, but are remembered in orkish folk-lore as Gork and Mork.....
This wouldve been great. them thinking they were gork and mork would probably make the psychic field turn them into gork and mork
I like the idea of one landing on a xenos planet and becoming the ruler and the emperor Shows up and commits xenocide only to come to blows with the leader of the xenos and oh no... it’s a primarch. Primarch yields as the emperor says he will save the remaining xenos and then wipes them out thinking his son will Eventually understand. Takes his legion and secretly plots vengeance.
My other personal theory is that one of the primarchs went around claiming to be the emperor himself and building up a sort of cult of his own, teaching people to worship him etc.
Each primarch fills a role or exhibits part of the emperors personality. This has been widely discussed. Problem is it’s quite ambiguous Sonora hard to see the gaps that the missing primarchs might fill.
It I do think there is something of the emperor that wanted to be the top guy over trillions of others. He claimed he didn’t want to be worshiped but as a god but he did want all of humanity to be under his yolk and he wanted to be emperor. So it wouldn’t surprise me if one of his missing sons was imbued with his unrelenting ambition.
I also suspect that Horus wasn’t really the first to be found. That seems like an obvious twist
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/29 23:07:44
mrFickle wrote: It I do think there is something of the emperor that wanted to be the top guy over trillions of others. He claimed he didn’t want to be worshiped but as a god but he did want all of humanity to be under his yolk and he wanted to be emperor. So it wouldn’t surprise me if one of his missing sons was imbued with his unrelenting ambition.
To be honest; that sounds already like Guilliman with what his own ''little'' 500 planet imperium he had managed to set up before the Emperor reached him.
I think I've probably got the closest 'official' explanation of what happened to them
Sorry for everyone who has read this already and is sick of it
Some years ago (late 2000s) I was part of a forum (The Great Crusade) which was all a bunch of hobbyists that loved the Horus Heresy TCG and art books and were busy making 28mm miniatures of those concepts. This is before the Forge World books, before the official minis (everything was converted!) and the HH book series had just got started. It was a really cool community with some really creative people making the 'old' armour out of whatever they could sculpt themselves or get their hands on.
One of the forum 'Great Crusade' events was organised by Laurie Goulding (who went on to work as an Editor at Black Library). I think at the time Laurie was trying to get his foot in the door and knew a few of the BL authors as a result. One of these was Graham McNeil, who very kindly authored a quick bit of background 'The Assault on Gedren Prime' to serve as a background to the campaign. It was super cool, and started with this text (I have abridged this as the original was taken offline) " It is the 77th year of the Great Crusade. The Emporer of mankind leads his twenty legions ever outward through the galaxy, .." and.. "Corax, Progenitor of the Raven Guard and master of the expedition, was quick to order the invasion fleets of all twenty legions into position. Of the other Primarchs present within the fleet; Khan, Leman Russ and Malibron, there was no argument."
Hopefully everyone noticed the number of Legions and the extra name in there?
Basically one dude had turned up with his own chapter that didn't really fit in with the rest of the established legions, so he got to be one of the missing legions(!)
They were lead by the Primarch Malibron, name unknown but I can tell you there was some bright yellow and red combination for the colours
To summarise the events, the Legion got their butts kicked and lost a huge number of marines bringing the system to compliance - basically their capital ship, containing thousands of marines and a large proportion of the legion, was destroyed (there was a really cool 'mass battle' of the Legions assaulting a fortress while bits of the ship landed on the board during the game!). The Gedrenites (the conquered foes) had access to forbidden cloning tech. After compliance, Malibron virus-bombed the world that had been responsible for destroying his Capital ship, then tried to steal the cloning tech for his own purposes to replenish his legion, ending up with a massive cluster-feth that resulted in 'blue on blue' and Legionnaries fighting against each other, and when the dust had settled ultimately ended up with Malibron being sent back to Terra in chains. Corax was then responsible for disposing of the cloning tech (which is a nice segway into that later background material for the Raven Guard..)
So.. not really official at all! But in light of words by Rick Priestly and others I think probably the closest we will ever get to it!
xerxeskingofking wrote: im quite partial to an idea floated on a Facebook group i'm in as a joke, namely that the two missing primarchs landed on ork held worlds, and, like all but one of their brothers, rose to the top and took control of thier worlds and powerful Warbosses. they were eventually found and killed by the expanding Great Crusade, but are remembered in orkish folk-lore as Gork and Mork.....
That's a really great idea
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/30 15:24:24
In the recent 40k Horus Hersey books, there is a scene which potentially implies the name of one of the lost primarchs.
Basically Horus, Alpharius, and the Khan barge in on Malcador as he sits as the imperial regent and get mad at him. Malcador and the other human government officials, with the Emperor's authority, have planned for two statues, of the II and XI primarchs, to be destroyed in the interest of erasing their memory from history.
Horus gets super mad at Malcador, and accuses him, saying "You can't even say his name", prompting Malcador to give him a bit of a psychic beatdown after saying "DON'T"
Horus acts defiant and starts to say "My brother's name was--" before Malcador ups the psychic beatdown from "severe reprimand" to "full body psychic paralysis and force choke". Khan tries to apologize for Horus, saying it's just grief talking, but Horus remains defiant and manages to say "Mal..." "M-Mal... al..." prompting Malcador to up the psychic assault from "choking out" to "choking to death".
Khan cries out and Malcador lets him go before Horus dies or anything like that, and Horus does not persist in threatening to speak a lost primarch's name.
The implication as I see it here, is that one of two things are happening:
1. Horus is trying to say "Malcador pls stop choking me you jerk", resulting in him managing to say "Mal..." "M-Mal... al..."
2. Horus is trying to say a lost primarch's name, which from these syllables would have to start with either "Mal-" or "Malal-"
Based on the fact that after uttering these tiny bits of speech Malcador ups his assault from "I am forcing you to stop" to "I am actively ending your life right now", I'm guessing Horus isn't just trying to say "Malcador stop you jerk you've made your point I'll calm down" but rather is persisting in defying him. This would lead us to consider one of the lost primarchs having a name beginning with either "Mal-" or "Malal-"
"Malibron" begins with "Mal-". Obviously no definite conclusion is reachable here, but I really like that this old piece of fan-fiction slots perfectly into a very recent "lost primarch name" lore snippet.
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The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
It's a question that intentionally doesn't have an answer. Their purpose is to have no answer to allow people to fill in the blank with anything that doesn't fit elsewhere. They're not puzzles, but MadLibs and as such, any and all answers are valid.
ph34r wrote:"Malibron" begins with "Mal-". Obviously no definite conclusion is reachable here, but I really like that this old piece of fan-fiction slots perfectly into a very recent "lost primarch name" lore snippet.
That's a really cool bit of info ph34r! Which story is that and who wrote it?
I would be amazed if that the unspoken name that Horus was trying to say, as that event was probably 12-13 years ago now.
The other snippet was that the first 'blue on blue', or instance of marine fighting marine, was World Eaters (or War Hounds) and Space Wolves. That was a 'special battle' at the event (if you read Battle Report - Gedren Prime Campaign: the final battle in the blog I linked) that was between myself and a guy called Wold Lord Mjolnir on the forum (not his real name! He had an amazingly converted Space Wolf army that was put on display in WHW for a while). We were told at the time that this might get written into official HH lore. I haven't completely kept up with the series, and in particular have missed a few of the novellas and audio books - do you know if that ever actually happened?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/30 17:52:35
ph34r wrote:"Malibron" begins with "Mal-". Obviously no definite conclusion is reachable here, but I really like that this old piece of fan-fiction slots perfectly into a very recent "lost primarch name" lore snippet.
That's a really cool bit of info ph34r! Which story is that and who wrote it?
I would be amazed if that the unspoken name that Horus was trying to say, as that event was probably 12-13 years ago now.
The other snippet was that the first 'blue on blue', or instance of marine fighting marine, was World Eaters (or War Hounds) and Space Wolves. That was a 'special battle' at the event (if you read Battle Report - Gedren Prime Campaign: the final battle in the blog I linked) that was between myself and a guy called Wold Lord Mjolnir on the forum (not his real name! He had an amazingly converted Space Wolf army that was put on display in WHW for a while). We were told at the time that this might get written into official HH lore. I haven't completely kept up with the series, and in particular have missed a few of the novellas and audio books - do you know if that ever actually happened?
as far as i know, the first marine on marine ground combat fights of the HH were on Istvann III (the purging of Loyalist elements of form the traitor legions), and it was a World Eaters on World Eaters affair (logar decided that bombing them was taking too long and went down to start chain-axing dudes, and dragged the other traitor legions into ground combat as well). And, as far as i know, no loyalist legion fought the traitors before the Dropsite massacre of Istvann IV, which the space wolves were not a part of.
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
I've always wondered if the idea of the 2 Lost Primarchs is simply an invention of the Emperor to keep the other Primarchs' in line (albeit unsuccessfully). With his apparently incredible psychic potential, it is not plausible that the entire idea is just a psychic imprint to scare the other Primarchs, with fake memories, etc?
ph34r wrote:"Malibron" begins with "Mal-". Obviously no definite conclusion is reachable here, but I really like that this old piece of fan-fiction slots perfectly into a very recent "lost primarch name" lore snippet.
That's a really cool bit of info ph34r! Which story is that and who wrote it?
Here is the (spoilers, obviously!) snippet from the story "The Last Council" by Laurie Goulding.
Spoiler:
Reddit user krorkle commentary: This is from today's Advent Calendar entry, The Last Council by Laurie Goulding. It's the story of Malcador, presiding over the last meeting of the High Lords of Terra before Horus's arrival to begin the Siege. In it, there's a flashback to an earlier meeting, which is the source of this excerpt. To set the stage, Horus, Alpharius, and Jaghatai have discovered that the statue of the first Lost primarch is being torn down, so they burst into the council chambers to confront Malcador.
‘My brothers and I have come to put an end to this madness, once and for all. The history of the Imperium is not something that can be amended. We will not allow it.’
Pacing now around the other men and women in the chamber, Alpharius nodded in agreement. ‘We know the price of destiny, Lord Regent. We know the sacrifices that must be made. There was always a chance that some of us would not live to see the galaxy united beneath our father’s banner.’
He saluted with one fist to his chest, being sure to mark the Sigillite’s reaction to the outdated gesture.
‘But to deny that they ever existed? To openly dishonour the memory of our fallen brother? What gives you the right to decide that, in secret, behind closed doors?’
Malcador glared at him. ‘Do not speak to me of secrets. You are playing a dangerous game, the three of you, and my patience grows thin.’
Then, to a chorus of poorly stifled gasps, the Sigillite turned his back on Horus. He could feel every pair of eyes in the room upon him as he retrieved his eagle-topped staff from its cradle beside the throne, and steeled himself to face down the monsters he had helped to create.
He lowered himself back into the seat, and peered out from beneath the cowl of his hood.
‘While our great Emperor is absent from the Throneworld, I carry His authority, and I act in His name. We here, we lords and ladies of Terra, have given the matter adequate deliberation, and decided that a tribute to a fallen and disgraced primarch is not a monument worthy of the Investiary. The statue will be removed, the marble pulverised and used to line the paths of the state gardens in the Inner Palace.’
Even the Khan stiffened at that.
Horus stood absolutely motionless, save for the twitching of his fingers. Doubtless he was imagining all the ways he might tear the Sigillite limb from limb.
‘Not worthy?’ he growled.
Malcador leaned against the throne’s carven back. ‘If you cannot see the reasoning behind this decision, then you only convince me further that it is the right one, and that there is nothing more to discuss. Pray, return to your Legions. The Imperium needs victories more than ever. Let these past failures lie.’
Quite unexpectedly, Horus laughed, loud and long.
‘You can’t even say it, can you,’ he said, incredulously. ‘You can’t even say his name.’
‘Do not speak it,’ Malcador thundered, loading the words with psychic force that struck the primarch’s mind like a hammer to the forehead.
Horus reeled, blinking away the pain. His brothers, too, seemed to feel the blow, along with every mortal still in the chamber. Even the Sigillite’s own ears rang, but he kept his voice firm and unwavering.
‘This was your father’s command, boy, and you all agreed to it. To disobey now is to break faith with the Emperor Himself.’
The primarch gave a wry, defiant grin. ‘My brother’s name was–’
Faster than human thought, Malcador’s empty hand snapped up into an arcane gesture long forgotten by any other living soul on Terra.
+Silence.+
Horus froze, his limbs locked fast within his armour. He shuddered uncontrollably, pressure building in his muscles as he fought against it. Slowly, Malcador stood, holding the primarch in place with the power of his mind, and nothing more.
The Khan sprang towards the centre of the room. ‘Lord Regent,’ he urged, holding out his open hands. ‘You must release him. Please. He speaks from grief, and the shame we all share.’
The air between them thrummed with invisible energy. Malcador could still see that hateful, defiant pride shining through, in Horus’ palsied gaze. ‘You are not ready for the future you crave,’ he hissed. ‘None of you are.’
He forced Horus down onto his knees.
‘Mal…’ the stricken primarch choked. ‘M-Mal… al…’
The Sigillite’s face twisted into a vengeful rictus. He felt the old, familiar rage beginning to stir, deep in his undying soul.
‘Enough. You will be silent, or I will unmake you, here and now.’
Horus’ windpipe closed with a sickly crackle. His right eye bloomed red as a blood vessel burst in the sclera.
But still he would not relent.
So defiant. So… So… ungrateful…
Alpharius took an uncertain step back. ‘Stop, Lord Regent. Stop. You will kill him.’
Tiny, crawling motes of light began to creep in at the edges of Malcador’s vision. He could feel heat building within his ancient bones, stinging at the meat of his flesh. The stench of burning hair rose in his nostrils.
‘Sigillite!’ bellowed the Khan.
And in an instant, it was over.
Malcador released Horus. The primarch crashed to the tiled floor, convulsing, almost gagging on rough lungfuls of air. Alpharius rushed to his side.
I would be amazed if that the unspoken name that Horus was trying to say, as that event was probably 12-13 years ago now.
The other snippet was that the first 'blue on blue', or instance of marine fighting marine, was World Eaters (or War Hounds) and Space Wolves. That was a 'special battle' at the event (if you read Battle Report - Gedren Prime Campaign: the final battle in the blog I linked) that was between myself and a guy called Wold Lord Mjolnir on the forum (not his real name! He had an amazingly converted Space Wolf army that was put on display in WHW for a while). We were told at the time that this might get written into official HH lore. I haven't completely kept up with the series, and in particular have missed a few of the novellas and audio books - do you know if that ever actually happened?
Wow, amazingly enough the first instance of marine fighting marine is actually exactly that: World Eaters and Space Wolves.
The book 'Betrayer' by Aaron Dembski-Bowden apparently includes this information as summarized on this lexicanum page: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Night_of_the_Wolf Basically when Angron took command of his legion he went about killing a whole lot of civilians. As told by Angron to Lorgar, the Emperor dispatched Russ to go tell Angron to stop killing so many civilians. The Space Wolves and World Eaters fought, Russ and Angron fought, and hostilities ceased after Angron dueled Russ, winning the duel but ending up being surrounded by a fatal encirclement of Space Wolves, who could have killed Angron at a word. Russ was trying to teach Angron a lesson, and in Angron's retelling of this to Lorgar, Lorgar believes that Angron was foolish to believe himself the 'victor'.
Spoiler:
The Night of the Wolf is the term given to a confrontation between the Space Wolves and World Eaters Space Marine Legions during the Great Crusade.
Occurring shortly after the rediscovery of Angron, the Space Wolves Primarch Leman Russ was supposedly dispatched by the Emperor himself to confront Angron on Malkoya. There, Russ demanded that Angron cease the wholesale massacre of civilians and defeated human enemies and halt the practice of installing the mind-altering Butcher's Nails in his own warriors or face censor on Terra. Angron scoffed at the notion and expressed doubt that the Emperor had truly sent him. He then went on to openly insult the Emperor as a slave-driver and even jokingly insinuated he might take the Imperial throne for himself. Horrified by this "heresy", Russ and Angron came to blows as their respective legions battled around them. Angron shattered Russ' Frost Blade Krakenmaw and Leman Russ destroyed Angrons Chainaxe Widowmaker, after a brief but intense duel Angron finally defeated the Primarch in single combat. The boasting Angron was soon silenced when Leman Russ revealed his true strategy, in the process of the duel Angron had allowed himself to be surrounded by Space Wolves forces, Russ had held back deliberatly in a desperate attempt to help his brother come to sense and beat the effects of his Butchers Nails. Though he had apparently lost the duel, Russ could have ordered his forces to kill Angron with just a single word but chose to withdraw instead. Despite this Angron still saw the battle as a victory, the World Eaters inflicted a greater number of casualties than they endured, and he saw it as a humiliation for the Wolves.[1]
In truth, many such as Lorgar had seen the incident as an embarrassment for the World Eaters, displaying their lack of discipline and Angron's reckless tactics. The fight had revealed Angrons rage and arrogance as a great weakness.[1]
Thanks for sharing, these snippets of wargaming history are very interesting! And well, it looks like they did in fact make it to Horus Heresy canon! Any other neat story moments?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/30 22:00:46
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
Fallen and disgraced primarch... so was the disgrace just that they had failed to achieve victory and lost thier life. It’s very much in the personality of the imperium to punish those that fail even in a no win scenario
The question of the two lost Primarchs is certainly something GW should develop, why they couldn’t offer some more tidbits seems a silly position.
Personally I feel the second post holds some mileage i.e. one of the primarchs fell to Chaos and the other was expunged for a more innocent action, just Primarch folly maybe.
One falling to Chaos would explain the snippets of the SW being a final sanction of the emperor and the other through folly the reason Malcacor said it was not the fault of the soldiers but their Primarch.
Actually the more I think about it GW a could do a really cool tie in with the Blood Ravens. They have a desire for knowledge, maybe this was also an inherent trait of their Primarch? Maybe he disobeyed the Emperor while on mission in pursuit of knowledge?
Maybe the BR Primarch entered an Eldar Webway, then got trapped there or taken by the Eldar and is held in stasis. With the slow decline of the Eldar and the growth of Chaos maybe they will release him? Maybe it’s also why the Blood Ravens are still allowed to exist, they committed no offence to the Emperor, it was simply down to their Primarch going off mission and then going missing against the Emperors orders. Also maybe they were the 2nd Legion and hence quite close to the Emperors heart and maybe as their Primarch wasn’t confirmed dead, possibly the Emperor still feels his presence, he hopes that he will return one day to lead the Blood Ravens again.
Anyway plenty of room for manoeuvre down this line for GW to explore and expand on.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/30 23:12:53
I'm pretty confident that one of the lost Primarchs met his doom, whatever it was, during the Rangdan Xenocides.
Almost nothing is known about those events except it was a freaking huge deal, many legions were shattered during its events, and the Emperor had to unleash an unspecified bit of secret stuff from the "Labyrinth of Night" or some such.
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The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
There is something very significant about why they struck the names of the fallen primarchs and legions from the records and even memory. I can't remember which story it is, but in one of them Dorn notices he can't remember his brother's name and asks Malcador about it. Malcador tells him "you'd asked me to block it from your conscious mind". Dorn is skeptical, so Malcador allows him to remember them. A that point, Dorn has him put the block back in. Seems to be a lot more than someone failed and died.
Yeah, it has to be something more unthinkable than chaos corruption, or simple failure, or death in some banal way.
While Dorn has his mental block removed, he considers that if the lost primarchs were around, they would be somehow in an even worse situation than the full on Heresy and Siege of Terra, they would have “already lost” or some such.
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
It would be nice if the reason was less literal than 'went evil, put down'.
Say for example, one primarch came to power and decided he wanted to lead a grand crusade across the galaxy to reunite humanity under his rule as the one and only emperor. And when he met the 'real' emperor, he considered him a false prophet or usurper and fought him.
And the OTHER primarch went the opposite - no one man should rule humanity and the emperor was an abomination against this ideal, so he rose up against him to try and stop his fascist imperium from forming.
It would be cool if their destruction was because they didn't fit in the emperor's imperium, rather than because they were corrupted by something.
ph34r wrote: Yeah, it has to be something more unthinkable than chaos corruption, or simple failure, or death in some banal way.
While Dorn has his mental block removed, he considers that if the lost primarchs were around, they would be somehow in an even worse situation than the full on Heresy and Siege of Terra, they would have “already lost” or some such.
If the events results in the unsealing of the noctis labyrinthis (temporarily), then any witness who understands what happened knows the Emperor lied to and manipulated the Mechanicum and isn't really the Omnissiah.
In peacetime, that could have shattered the treaty of Olympus and kicked off a Mars/Terra civil war. With a civil war ALREADY GOING ON? And Titans and 'exiled' adeptus mechanicus forces stationed everywhere on Terra in advance of Horus' invasion?
That's a really interesting point. The angle being, if the lost legions were around, the mechanicum would somehow learn of the Emperor not actually being the omnissiah, and cause double civil war. Not an option I had considered before.
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
Pacific wrote: I think I've probably got the closest 'official' explanation of what happened to them
Sorry for everyone who has read this already and is sick of it
Some years ago (late 2000s) I was part of a forum (The Great Crusade) which was all a bunch of hobbyists that loved the Horus Heresy TCG and art books and were busy making 28mm miniatures of those concepts. This is before the Forge World books, before the official minis (everything was converted!) and the HH book series had just got started. It was a really cool community with some really creative people making the 'old' armour out of whatever they could sculpt themselves or get their hands on.
One of the forum 'Great Crusade' events was organised by Laurie Goulding (who went on to work as an Editor at Black Library). I think at the time Laurie was trying to get his foot in the door and knew a few of the BL authors as a result. One of these was Graham McNeil, who very kindly authored a quick bit of background 'The Assault on Gedren Prime' to serve as a background to the campaign. It was super cool, and started with this text (I have abridged this as the original was taken offline) " It is the 77th year of the Great Crusade. The Emporer of mankind leads his twenty legions ever outward through the galaxy, .." and.. "Corax, Progenitor of the Raven Guard and master of the expedition, was quick to order the invasion fleets of all twenty legions into position. Of the other Primarchs present within the fleet; Khan, Leman Russ and Malibron, there was no argument."
Hopefully everyone noticed the number of Legions and the extra name in there?
Basically one dude had turned up with his own chapter that didn't really fit in with the rest of the established legions, so he got to be one of the missing legions(!)
They were lead by the Primarch Malibron, name unknown but I can tell you there was some bright yellow and red combination for the colours
To summarise the events, the Legion got their butts kicked and lost a huge number of marines bringing the system to compliance - basically their capital ship, containing thousands of marines and a large proportion of the legion, was destroyed (there was a really cool 'mass battle' of the Legions assaulting a fortress while bits of the ship landed on the board during the game!). The Gedrenites (the conquered foes) had access to forbidden cloning tech. After compliance, Malibron virus-bombed the world that had been responsible for destroying his Capital ship, then tried to steal the cloning tech for his own purposes to replenish his legion, ending up with a massive cluster-feth that resulted in 'blue on blue' and Legionnaries fighting against each other, and when the dust had settled ultimately ended up with Malibron being sent back to Terra in chains. Corax was then responsible for disposing of the cloning tech (which is a nice segway into that later background material for the Raven Guard..)
So.. not really official at all! But in light of words by Rick Priestly and others I think probably the closest we will ever get to it!
xerxeskingofking wrote: im quite partial to an idea floated on a Facebook group i'm in as a joke, namely that the two missing primarchs landed on ork held worlds, and, like all but one of their brothers, rose to the top and took control of thier worlds and powerful Warbosses. they were eventually found and killed by the expanding Great Crusade, but are remembered in orkish folk-lore as Gork and Mork.....
That's a really great idea
This news let me understand I'm on the right path: in fact I always thought what happened to the two lost primarchs involved something so terrible, that also the heretic primarchs are still scared to talk about it, but at the same time it had to be something so limited to allow to be kept in secret. For that reason I thought the eleventh primarch was the leader of a genestealer cult, but because at that time nobody knew the existence of the genestealers, everyone thought the horrible mutations that affected the eleventh legion marines were related to an issue with their geneseed (so with the Emperor genome) and/or with the Adeptus Mechanicus' work. So because this "accident" is something so terrible to be able to destroy both the idea of a perfect Emperor than the faith in the Machine God and consequentially destroy in a single blow the Empire of Mankind and the Adeptus Mechanicus and because every primarch was scared to death by the idea that also their space marines could be affected by the same mutations (mutations by large more horrible and dangerous that the ones of the Thousand Sons and the Blood Angels), Malcador ordered to purge the eleventh primarch, his legion and their memory, with the tacit approval of the Emperor and all other primarchs.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/01 08:10:36
@The_Grim_Angel - I'm not sure to be honest. I think it would have had to be something so awful that their memory was censured. I suppose the stuff about Malibron would line up with that if it were canon; He used exterminatus on a defenseless world that had already surrendered (in a fit of pique?) which would otherwise have been brought into the Imperium and also stole dark age/forbidden tech for cloning technology to rebuild his legion. The large volume of Marines lost in that conflict would explain where the rest of the Space Marines went (we know from other HH books that some of the Legions were swelled with members of disbanded Legions, although it is presented as a rumour). Although otherwise we don't know anything about the lost Primarch or his Legion.
ph34r wrote:"Malibron" begins with "Mal-". Obviously no definite conclusion is reachable here, but I really like that this old piece of fan-fiction slots perfectly into a very recent "lost primarch name" lore snippet.
That's a really cool bit of info ph34r! Which story is that and who wrote it?
Here is the (spoilers, obviously!) snippet from the story "The Last Council" by Laurie Goulding.
*snip*
I would be amazed if that the unspoken name that Horus was trying to say, as that event was probably 12-13 years ago now.
The other snippet was that the first 'blue on blue', or instance of marine fighting marine, was World Eaters (or War Hounds) and Space Wolves. That was a 'special battle' at the event (if you read Battle Report - Gedren Prime Campaign: the final battle in the blog I linked) that was between myself and a guy called Wold Lord Mjolnir on the forum (not his real name! He had an amazingly converted Space Wolf army that was put on display in WHW for a while). We were told at the time that this might get written into official HH lore. I haven't completely kept up with the series, and in particular have missed a few of the novellas and audio books - do you know if that ever actually happened?
Wow, amazingly enough the first instance of marine fighting marine is actually exactly that: World Eaters and Space Wolves.
The book 'Betrayer' by Aaron Dembski-Bowden apparently includes this information as summarized on this lexicanum page: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Night_of_the_Wolf Basically when Angron took command of his legion he went about killing a whole lot of civilians. As told by Angron to Lorgar, the Emperor dispatched Russ to go tell Angron to stop killing so many civilians. The Space Wolves and World Eaters fought, Russ and Angron fought, and hostilities ceased after Angron dueled Russ, winning the duel but ending up being surrounded by a fatal encirclement of Space Wolves, who could have killed Angron at a word. Russ was trying to teach Angron a lesson, and in Angron's retelling of this to Lorgar, Lorgar believes that Angron was foolish to believe himself the 'victor'.
Spoiler:
The Night of the Wolf is the term given to a confrontation between the Space Wolves and World Eaters Space Marine Legions during the Great Crusade.
Occurring shortly after the rediscovery of Angron, the Space Wolves Primarch Leman Russ was supposedly dispatched by the Emperor himself to confront Angron on Malkoya. There, Russ demanded that Angron cease the wholesale massacre of civilians and defeated human enemies and halt the practice of installing the mind-altering Butcher's Nails in his own warriors or face censor on Terra. Angron scoffed at the notion and expressed doubt that the Emperor had truly sent him. He then went on to openly insult the Emperor as a slave-driver and even jokingly insinuated he might take the Imperial throne for himself. Horrified by this "heresy", Russ and Angron came to blows as their respective legions battled around them. Angron shattered Russ' Frost Blade Krakenmaw and Leman Russ destroyed Angrons Chainaxe Widowmaker, after a brief but intense duel Angron finally defeated the Primarch in single combat. The boasting Angron was soon silenced when Leman Russ revealed his true strategy, in the process of the duel Angron had allowed himself to be surrounded by Space Wolves forces, Russ had held back deliberatly in a desperate attempt to help his brother come to sense and beat the effects of his Butchers Nails. Though he had apparently lost the duel, Russ could have ordered his forces to kill Angron with just a single word but chose to withdraw instead. Despite this Angron still saw the battle as a victory, the World Eaters inflicted a greater number of casualties than they endured, and he saw it as a humiliation for the Wolves.[1]
In truth, many such as Lorgar had seen the incident as an embarrassment for the World Eaters, displaying their lack of discipline and Angron's reckless tactics. The fight had revealed Angrons rage and arrogance as a great weakness.[1]
Thanks for sharing, these snippets of wargaming history are very interesting! And well, it looks like they did in fact make it to Horus Heresy canon! Any other neat story moments?
Wow - thanks for that ph34r - that's pretty mad! No way of course if knowing if that was a deliberate thing or not by ADB, as of all the Legions the Space Wolves and World Eaters would probably be the most likely to come to blows.
The game we played in the event was actually almost the other way round. As opposed to the Primarchs, a Wolf Guard had butchered the World Eater Commander he was fighting but then afterwards found himself surrounded by World Eater Troopers or pointing their guns at him. As a narrative though I think it makes more sense for the Space Wolves to be doing the surrounding, and then it serve to expose that Russ was a thinker as well as a warrior, and that Angron had a short-sighted tactical acumen despite his ferocity.
I didn't realise Laurie had written that story - that could definitely be an 'in joke/comment' there to some of the old TGC crew and Graham McNeil.
Easily disguised too (and of course you don't know for sure) as he could easily of just been trying to say 'Malcador'.
I'm afraid I think that's it for tit-bits but will try and have a think, it was a while ago now!
Well after reading up more on the Blood Ravens, it just makes too much sense that they are one of the expunged Legions.
The fact they don’t know who their Primarch is, they don’t even know their gene seed coupled with everyone including their own seem to have covered up their history makes them to compelling as one of the expunged Legions.
Who knows why their Primarch fell from grace, the reason obviously warranted the removal of their name and Legion from records but as the BR gene seed is quite stable I am guessing it’s not because their Primarch was corrupted or mutated.
It’s also very curious why Malcador has the expunged Legion numbers on his chair, did he expunge them in the name of the Emperor, after all he did carry the Emperors authority. Maybe they were seen simply as too much of a threat to humanity once their traits were fully understood and the Emperor and Malcador decided better to remove them early? Maybe this is why Horus tried to bring the matter up with Malcador? The fact Malcador seems to blame the fate of these two legions on the Primarchs alone (or at least one of them) begs the question what happened to the Marines in them? Sure maybe one legion or parts of both went into the Smurfs but maybe some didn’t, or none at all from one Legion?
The Blood Ravens could turn into one of the most interesting SM chapters in 40K lore if GW developed their storyline.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/02 00:57:02
Man all that info from @Pacific was great! Somehow it seems fitting that some of the inspiration for these stories came from narrative campaigns haha. That adds some flavor to the events rather than it being from a purely, planned narrative. Adding elements of surprise, randomness and luck.
In previous posts on this subject I mentioned that I have been working on my own story for what happened to the lost legions, believing that they could be connected somehow, and so far here are some theories based on what I have found;
1.the 2nd Primarch is connected to the Ymga monolith, it was mentioned I believe between two Emperors Children marines. They stated that early in the crusade the 2nd led an expedition there, but never found out what happened. It is also mentioned that Fulgrim believed the 2nd to be a hypocrite, again without real context. What is interesting about the monolith is that it seems to have the ability to duplicate necron ships, maybe even the necrons themselves? Almost like cloning @Pacific haha. In earlier drafts on the lost primarchs, cloning to replenish losses or cover for genetic impurities seemed like a good enough reason to destroy the legion, as well as using human aspirants that had xenos dna. All of these fit into a grim dark narrative.
2. The 11th Primarch most likely had some sort of genetic flaw with his legion or had the perception that there was a flaw(connecting to Sangiunius’ fear). But it is also highly implied that one or both legions were wiped out during the 3rd Rangdan xenocides war, maybe they didn’t have a flaw as much as they were infected beyond curing? What little is known about the Rangdan seem to point to mind enslavers of some kind, perhaps an army of xenos infected marines ala Starcraft? Or as my personal idea, they had tech that could turn their own soldiers and/or others into creatures similar to John Capenters The Thing.
3.whatever they did threatened the Imperium and the Great Crusade so much that nothing could be allowed to remain of them. This is the most difficult aspect to deal with as a galaxy wide civil war seems to be the worst thing imaginable haha. I forget what story it is from, but when two imperial agents are talking about Mars, one of them mentions how the Emperor defeated and imprisoned the Void dragon there thousands of years in the past. The other agent understands that the Emperor had planned for the creation of the Mechanicus, if that is true then what else did he plan and what atrocities did he allow to happen in order to achieve his goals? Not to mention using Necron tech to do so, an enemy that humankind would have to deal with as well. And if Necron tech/void dragon was used to kill the Rangdan, does that have anything to do with need to cover it up? But whatever it was, Giulliman and Dorn both accepted marines from both legions, leading me to believe it wasn’t strictly a genetic flaw and that these marines were still loyal to the Imperium, adding more confusion.
As mentioned in other similar topics, I use the Primarch tarot connection to help fill in the gaps on the lost primarchs. It seems the 2nd was a psycher as strong as Magnus, but could also read people and manipulate them. He could also influence events on a grand scale, similar to the Emperor planning thousands of years into the future(like Uriel from Lucifer tv series, can manipulate world events with small gestures like a butterfly effect)?
The 11th was arrogant, too trustworthy of people and had a connection to the concept of faith. Like a fool hardy, well meaning hero running head first into a conflict without a second thought. Sounds like someone who would doom himself and his legion in a monumental battle(like the dumb prince from the Witcher tv series that kills a sickly troll for glory, and then dies later for eating its infected flesh)
So for my running theory, the 2nd Primarch was lost in the warp sometime during the crusade, while using the Ymga monolith. He was trying to access the Necron’s webway, as a test for ftl travel. Or he did something horrible/mistake and couldn’t get over it, so believed he could change the past to affect the future. Then became lost not only in space but maybe even time, and realizing either everything he was doing was just making things worse or creating what he was trying to avoid.
For the 11th I believe he knew/believed the Rangdan were still alive(he was found after the 2nd Rangdan war and was deleted during the 3rd) and no one believed him or backed him. This causes a rift between the 11th and his brothers, father and even his own legion. They believe him a madman, but he faces the Rangdan alone, dies and needs the Emperor to open the Labrynth of night to finally kill the Rangdan. Perhaps if the other primarchs found out the Emperor had planned all of this, including their brother’s separate fates, that could cause them to wipe their own memory, to not face the guilt and the truth.
And I want to work the idea of the 5th chaos god Mala/Malice having a hand in the demise of the 11th legion, my theory, the other 4 chaos gods used the Emperor to banish/imprison Malal in exchange for the knowledge to make the primarchs(his time spent on Molech). Malal then exacts his revenge leading to the Emperor using forbidden xenos tech to banish/destroy Malal as well as the Rangdan(they also have a connection to Malal).
I believe that the crux of a lot of 40k stories now revolve around faith v. facts, or destiny/fate v. changing ones future. The ambiguous nature can be interesting because it relates to theories and ideas that humankind has dealt with for a long time. Was the HH supposed to happen, did the Emperor plan for it or was it changed by Horus and the chaos Gods? Is Konrad Cruze a bloodthirsty lunatic who kills because of fear or is an instrument of fate ruled by the Emperor? Was Sanguinius always meant to die like in his visions or did he choose to do so?
But now I do like the idea that the knowledge of the Void dragon and the Emperor not being the Omminisiah could have led to an Terra v Mars war. Very cool idea that would have led to the end of the Imperium.
Ketara wrote: To pull out from an earlier dissection of mine on the Missing Primarchs:-
Known Facts:-
-Sanguinius was scared that the genetic flaw of the Black Thirst being revealed would cause his legion to be destroyed. The logical conclusion is that some biological flaw must have occurred regarding one of the lost legions to base that assumption on.
- Both were destroyed in between the years 30,840 (the Finding of Lion El'Jonson) & 31,560 (The Drop Site Massacre). This means that one of them was potentially destroyed before the finding of Perturabo, Mortarion, Curze, Angron, Lorgar and the Khan.
-That the Space Wolves were involved in the destruction of at least one legion.
-That one of the Primarchs was considered 'Lost' before he was even found by the Emperor. We know this because the Emperor dismissed two of the Primarchs as being a bad subject matter when he found Corax, even though he'd only found one of the Missing Primarchs at that time (according to the official BL order of finding leaked by Laurie Goulding).
-Vulkan used the word 'Sanction' when describing what happened to the Missing Primarchs. This would appear to imply at least one of them disobeyed the Emperor.
-It is stated that a Black Scroll has been dispatched by Malcador to a Legion's homeworlds only twice before, the implication being for the dissolution of a Legion.
-Book seven of the Horus Heresy says that entire Legions were lost in the Rangdan Xenocides, which took place in the 30,860's.
-Guilliman stated that two of his Brothers 'Failed' whilst the rest ''turned' on the Emperor. So it is unlikely that the two went into open rebellion against the Emperor prior to their destruction as he very clearly distinguishes between the two things.
-Cawl declares that the destroyed Legions were not at fault, nor was their geneseed, but the Primarchs (or their actions).
-There is a stated rumour that the Ultramarines grew large at the time one of the other Legions vanished. This has been stated by the author to have just been stuff he was making up as he went along and a rumour as opposed to anything canon. But still worthy of note (as the Universe exists independent of any individual author).
So. With all of those facts; we can draw up something of a hypothesis relating to both of them.
The first 'Missing' Primarch disobeyed and 'failed' the Emperor in some irrevocable way which required sanctioning/disciplining. Judging by the fact that he went missing before the finding of Corax, the timeline means that this Primarch must have been the head of the Legion destroyed during the Rangdan Xenocide.
What do we know about the Rangdan Xenocide? We know that the Space Wolves and Dark Angels had to purge the 'bio' taint of the Rangdan Cerabvores subsequently,leaving whole sectors lifeless (never the optimal solution); which means that the Rangdan Cerabvores had some way of irrevocably infecting biological organisms. As we know that this Primarch wasn't an out and out rebel (thanks Lorgar), and the Black Scroll of Doom/Ending has been delivered before, this Primarch and his Legion must have been willingly/knowingly sacrificed over the course of the campaign. Now this could be either because they were already tainted by the Rangdan Cerabvores from an earlier disobedience by the Primarch (the most likely scenario given that no other Legions were allowed to perish entirely), or that the Emperor otherwise deliberately sacrificed them because he was so hacked off at them.
Their 'sanctioning', in other words, likely took the form of a suicide run. Depending on the form that the bio-taint of the Cerabvores took (so if it involved subverting or taking control of organisms), this could potentially be where the Space Wolves gained their experience fighting other marines (exterminating their remnants).
The second Missing Primarch on the other hand, was evidently compromised before he was found. He isn't regarded as having 'turned on' the Emperor (thanks again Guilliman) likely for the very simple reason that he never joined the Emperor to begin with. Whilst the author later disclaimed the story of another legion being folded into the ultramarines; this would actually be a good reason for a Legion to have been handed a Black Scroll and disbanded. Whether it was because he was the leader of an alien confederation, had already rejected the Emperor psychically, or was warp tainted to the extreme (invent your own reason), the Emperor knew this gent was never going to be a part of the Imperium before he managed to track him down. So the ready built Legion waiting for him would have needed breaking up and dispersing.
We actually have some new fragments since the above was written.
-Horus getting angry at Malcador's elimination of the statues, indicating that whatever happened to them, the other Primarchs didn't consider it dishonourable. This fits with the first missing primarch theory above, and considerably refines the latter one, as Dorn also reminisces about the two of them as being 'tragedies'. So whatever compromised the second Primarch, it wasn't something out and out distasteful to the other Primarchs. So he probably wasn't leading other armies against the Emperor or the like. He might have been warp tainted somewhow, fought the emperor in single combat, lobotomised and turned into some kind of sevitor, who knows?
-They've actually confirmed that the legionnaires of at least one of the destroyed legions were mindwiped and reassigned. This confirms what was originally just a random piece of Ultramarines gossip invented ad hoc by an author as now being canon. It also lines up well with one of the Primarchs being lost before he could join his legion.
Looks like I might have to incorporate that section on Goulding in the future; it certainly seems like a good source for the name!
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/12/02 14:12:27
Thanks Ketara - that's a really interesting summary! Quite a lot in there that I hadn't heard of read before.
-That one of the Primarchs was considered 'Lost' before he was even found by the Emperor.
Why would that Primarch have a status raised in their honour if that was the case? It would have been just 19 statues (going on the short story @ph34r referenced)
I suppose the Graham McNeil/Laurie Goulding fan campaign/narrative piece could tie up with Rangdan. Given a choice between execution and death in battle 'Mal' (as his friends call him) is allowed a final assault on that species as part of that campaign.
I read quite an interesting piece once about Feudal Japan, where disgraced nobility and their wards were allowed to carry out a suicidal charge in battle as an alternative to Sepuku. Perhaps something like that?
That would also explain Horus' (quite angry) reaction to Malcador removing their statues, if they were perceived to have been lost or defeated in some honourable fashion (or something that he, as a warrior, deemed honourable).
He would hardly have had that reaction if the other Primarch had been treasonous, or had just been some 'foe' at the head of an alien empire that had fought the Emperor rather than side with him (although in that instance he wouldn't have had a status there in the first place).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/02 16:49:40
Funnily enough your assumptions on the 2nd Primarch followed my assumption except instead of an Eldar webway, yours is connected to the YMGA Monolith and entered a Necron webway, something I have now read up on. You also assume the second Primarch was also a strong Psychic.
I think this would all fit in perfectly with the Blood Ravens being the second Legion. After all they have an uncanny way of producing more psychics after gene seed implantation. They also have a curiosity for tech and knowledge. This would all fit in perfectly with their Primarch doing an unsanctioned visit to the YMGA monolith, or maybe he was even the first to find it hence the calamity happening?
Also according to info the Aurelia sector is meant to be on the Eastern fringe of the Segmentum Ultima, which would also put them in very close proximity of the YMGA Monolith. But for the life of me I can’t seem to find the Sub sector Aurelia on the star maps? Maybe somebody can help out?
Also it is assumed the Blood Ravens chapter master Azariah Vidya had the ability to read minds, maybe this was one of his Primarchs most powerful psychic abilities which he inherited. This ability would indeed be a threat to the Emperor and maybe he casually allowed him to go to the YMGA Monolith knowing he would get sucked into a webway/warp of some sort, would be a very convenient way of getting rid of him.
Another position could be the BR Primarch was just about to do something that would cause a big problem by tampering with the YMGA Monolith and the Eldar via their close by Webway appeared and took him away, this would also give explanation of why information concerning the Blood Ravens was found on Eldar knowledge worlds in the Eye of Terror and guarded by Harlequins of all troops? So I think the Eldar whipping away the 2nd Primarch and his expedition force could be credible notion while also linked to visiting the YMGA Monolith.
So were the Blood Ravens put into DOW to follow a missing Legion/Primarch story line, or possible used inadvertently by some GW staffer opening up a can of worms?
Either way my money is on the Blood Ravens being the second Legion and their Primarch is missing, possibly not dead and held by the Eldar.
Also I think if Malibron was one of the names of the two missing Primarchs he was the Primarch of the 11th Legion and hence why Horus challenged Malacor as Malibron’s demise was more severe and at the hands of the Wolves.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/02 17:19:45
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts 
Watch Company Rho 1650pts
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
