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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Atlanta

What’s with GW decision to have have 3 model units with with forced mixed weapons? As a DA, Nid, IK player it’s never really come up but I picked up the Indomitus box and decided to keep the Necrons. The units I’m specifically talking about are the Skorpehk Destroys and the Ophydian destroyers. I’m not sure if other boxes/armies are doing it, but I can’t say I’m a fan.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Well it does entice people to buy more boxs, and scalpers to buy boxs to split them.
It is like selling odd numbered squads of some units. Aggressors are generaly run at 3 or 5 man, but there is only a 3 man box, if someone wants to run the optimal 5, they will be left with an extra one, they have to run 15 aggresors and buy 5 boxs to have no left overs. And I don't think anyone runs that many post aggresor nerf, not even salamander succesors and ultramarines.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




Tacoma, WA, USA

Presumedly, space on the sprue. They want to give multiple weapons options for the unit but lacked the sprue space to put multiple options for each model on them.
   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





I hate it if they don't give enough bits to equip all the models with the same weapon. The absolute worst example of it is the Chaos terminators.

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Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander






London

It's a bit of a Catch-22 with some of these kits.
> Include all weapon options and the kit will jump up in price massively, people complain about GW pricing.

> Only include the minimum weapon options, people complain about GW kits.


   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander




I disagree: Worst example of this is Command Squad of IG, or Special Weapons Team. Why there aren't 4 of each weapon possible blows my mind. It's why I love Custodes. Everything is on the SPRU. Except if you wanna make a generic SC with an axe. For that you need a guardian box and a warden/termy box. But if you are making regular SCs with axes my question is WHY, just make a termy one instead.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Valkyrie wrote:
It's a bit of a Catch-22 with some of these kits.
> Include all weapon options and the kit will jump up in price massively, people complain about GW pricing.

> Only include the minimum weapon options, people complain about GW kits.



No, it wouldn't. They could include all the weapons on every sprue and it would raise their overall costs by maybe 0.25%. Most kits would stay the same; even stuff like terminators with tons of loadout options would only see the total amount of plastic go up by maybe 20%, because weapons are small compared to bodies.

Plastic is practically free, and the printing is very cheap. The marginal cost of including even 20% more plastic on a sprue is miniscule.

I mean we can even demonstrate this by showing that kits with more weapon options don't cost any more than those with fixed loadouts. GW prices by the unit type and number, not by the weapon options.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/29 17:38:06


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Valkyrie wrote:
It's a bit of a Catch-22 with some of these kits.
> Include all weapon options and the kit will jump up in price massively, people complain about GW pricing.

> Only include the minimum weapon options, people complain about GW kits.



yeah, but making a csm box when 5 dudes comes with bolters and 5 dudes come with pistols and swords. When there exist kits like the GK one where there is enough weapons to arm each model with sword, two swords or a halabard, and a bunch of special weapons like hammers at the same price. The whole they wwould have to rise the price seems kind of a bogus sort of argument.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






yukishiro1 wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
It's a bit of a Catch-22 with some of these kits.
> Include all weapon options and the kit will jump up in price massively, people complain about GW pricing.

> Only include the minimum weapon options, people complain about GW kits.



No, it wouldn't. They could include all the weapons on every sprue and it would raise their overall costs by maybe 0.25%. Most kits would stay the same; even stuff like terminators with tons of loadout options would only see the total amount of plastic go up by maybe 20%, because weapons are small compared to bodies.

Plastic is practically free, and the printing is very cheap. The marginal cost of including even 20% more plastic on a sprue is miniscule.

I mean we can even demonstrate this by showing that kits with more weapon options don't cost any more than those with fixed loadouts. GW prices by the unit type and number, not by the weapon options.


Agree, especially when we are talking about things like combi-plasma or flamers whose bits are tiny.

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Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




Tacoma, WA, USA

Everything has to fit on the sprue with technically acceptable gates. They can just's magically add more to the sprues for nearly nothing. So if the bits don't fit on the sprue, you have to create another sprue to hold them. That's when the kit cost increases. Got to pay for those molds.

That being said, there is more to consider when GW prices a kit than how many sprues the kit contains and how big those are. But the general rules seem to be "more/larger sprues cost more money" and "the more kits likely to sell, the less the kit cost". We can only hope that GW tries to make a better balance between the two things so that we can get more Cannoness or Dark Angels Primaris Master kits and less monopose, no option kits.
   
Made in ca
Mysterious Techpriest






Karol wrote:
Well it does entice people to buy more boxs, and scalpers to buy boxs to split them.
It is like selling odd numbered squads of some units. Aggressors are generaly run at 3 or 5 man, but there is only a 3 man box, if someone wants to run the optimal 5, they will be left with an extra one, they have to run 15 aggresors and buy 5 boxs to have no left overs. And I don't think anyone runs that many post aggresor nerf, not even salamander succesors and ultramarines.


aggressors are minimum 3, maximum 6, selling them in packs of 3 makes sense. 5-man won't always be the optimal amount and surely wasnt in 8th when the kit was released.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm surprised that GW hasnt started producing their own bits sprues honestly.

A sprue with combi weapons would be dope and i would 100% buy a couple, same with lightning claws or chain axes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/29 20:24:14


Admech Lucius
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Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot




Vancouver, BC

It makes you wish that GW hadn't killed off bits sellers so you could still just order whatever options you need online for a couple of bucks.

Debate the topic, not the poster. I will not be discussing myself in relation to debates and discussions on this forum. 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 VladimirHerzog wrote:
...I'm surprised that GW hasnt started producing their own bits sprues honestly.

A sprue with combi weapons would be dope and i would 100% buy a couple, same with lightning claws or chain axes.


Why would they do that? Right now they can sell you a whole Sternguard, Vanguard/Warp Talon, or Berzerker kit to get your combi-weapons/lightning claws/chainaxes.

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Made in ca
Mysterious Techpriest






 AnomanderRake wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
...I'm surprised that GW hasnt started producing their own bits sprues honestly.

A sprue with combi weapons would be dope and i would 100% buy a couple, same with lightning claws or chain axes.


Why would they do that? Right now they can sell you a whole Sternguard, Vanguard/Warp Talon, or Berzerker kit to get your combi-weapons/lightning claws/chainaxes.


its not like i expect these theoretical bits kits to be free either...

Admech Lucius
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Made in ca
Crafty Goblin





Canada

If you play marines, forgeworld has bits for everything. Bits are better for a 'made to order' model, like Forge World, where GW stocks and supplies bulk stuff. It could be a good avenue for FW to explore more.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
...I'm surprised that GW hasnt started producing their own bits sprues honestly.

A sprue with combi weapons would be dope and i would 100% buy a couple, same with lightning claws or chain axes.


Why would they do that? Right now they can sell you a whole Sternguard, Vanguard/Warp Talon, or Berzerker kit to get your combi-weapons/lightning claws/chainaxes.


its not like i expect these theoretical bits kits to be free either...


Would you pay $60 for eight combi-weapons?

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Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 Canadian 5th wrote:
It makes you wish that GW hadn't killed off bits sellers so you could still just order whatever options you need online for a couple of bucks.


Hmm. The sellers I order bitz from on EBay must not've gotten the memo they'd been killed off.
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot




Vancouver, BC

ccs wrote:
 Canadian 5th wrote:
It makes you wish that GW hadn't killed off bits sellers so you could still just order whatever options you need online for a couple of bucks.


Hmm. The sellers I order bitz from on EBay must not've gotten the memo they'd been killed off.

They killed off the websites and dedicated bits selling stores. Think about your Miniwargamings and the like who used to sell GW product but shifted to a new business model or folded.

Debate the topic, not the poster. I will not be discussing myself in relation to debates and discussions on this forum. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 Canadian 5th wrote:
ccs wrote:
 Canadian 5th wrote:
It makes you wish that GW hadn't killed off bits sellers so you could still just order whatever options you need online for a couple of bucks.


Hmm. The sellers I order bitz from on EBay must not've gotten the memo they'd been killed off.

They killed off the websites and dedicated bits selling stores. Think about your Miniwargamings and the like who used to sell GW product but shifted to a new business model or folded.


And yet there's dedicated bitz sellers on EBay etc.....
It's business. Some times you need to adjust your approach to keep making the $. And sometimes as a customer you need to adjust as well.
Like I said, I've never had any trouble getting the official bitz I need. And there's no end of "Not-GW" bitz & 3rd parties out there either either.
Oh, and let's not even talk about 3d printing files....
You want it, it's out there.
So in the end it doesn't make any difference that a some sites didn't make it (well, maybe to those who ran them if they couldn't adjust).
   
Made in ca
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





The Frozen North

 Valkyrie wrote:
Include all weapon options and the kit will jump up in price massively, people complain about GW pricing.

> Only include the minimum weapon options, people complain about GW kits.

Better yet, include only the minimum weapon options and jack up the price.

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Longtime Dakkanaut




ccs 794971 11017705 wrote:
And yet there's dedicated bitz sellers on EBay etc.....
It's business. Some times you need to adjust your approach to keep making the $. And sometimes as a customer you need to adjust as well.
Like I said, I've never had any trouble getting the official bitz I need. And there's no end of "Not-GW" bitz & 3rd parties out there either either.
Oh, and let's not even talk about 3d printing files....
You want it, it's out there.
So in the end it doesn't make any difference that a some sites didn't make it (well, maybe to those who ran them if they couldn't adjust).


You know that sounds like what an actress here tweeted 3 weeks ago. She got angry that people were saying the line to knee surgery is clogged and people have to wait years to do it, getting bigger and bigger damage to it, and often to the other knee too. And she just replied that why don't people just drive to germany or czech repulic, and get surgery there, because of covid all private cliniques there have free spots, and that it took her less then a week to order and get her surgery done.

If GW makes the only optimal way to run a squad, the take powerfist on each SG model like it was in 8th, and the box comes with 1, and I wouldn't be suprised if the box came with zero to be honest, Then it is really not good to hear that the way to do it is to buy a 600$ printer or 20 powerfist for scalapers, specialy as their prices are always the prices for western buyers with western incomes.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





yukishiro1 wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
It's a bit of a Catch-22 with some of these kits.
> Include all weapon options and the kit will jump up in price massively, people complain about GW pricing.

> Only include the minimum weapon options, people complain about GW kits.



No, it wouldn't. They could include all the weapons on every sprue and it would raise their overall costs by maybe 0.25%. Most kits would stay the same; even stuff like terminators with tons of loadout options would only see the total amount of plastic go up by maybe 20%, because weapons are small compared to bodies.

Plastic is practically free, and the printing is very cheap. The marginal cost of including even 20% more plastic on a sprue is miniscule.

I mean we can even demonstrate this by showing that kits with more weapon options don't cost any more than those with fixed loadouts. GW prices by the unit type and number, not by the weapon options.


That assumes you can fit those weapons to same sprue. Not bigger and def not extra. 3rd sprue would increase gw expenses 50%. 2nd 100%.

Take sprue. Try fitting extra weapons inside frame. Can you do it? If not figure out what bits you leave away. Or increase cost moe than 0.25%.

You didn't think plastic is all that costs did you?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/30 22:46:31


2021 painted/bought: 59/44 
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander




I swear I thought GW sold bits packs for like Marine plasma rifles and meltas? When did that stop?

HEre

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Space-Marine-Plasma-Guns

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/31 00:58:51


 
   
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Preacher of the Emperor




Tacoma, WA, USA

They are still there, at least in the US Webcart.. You just need to search for them.
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






tneva82 wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
It's a bit of a Catch-22 with some of these kits.
> Include all weapon options and the kit will jump up in price massively, people complain about GW pricing.

> Only include the minimum weapon options, people complain about GW kits.



No, it wouldn't. They could include all the weapons on every sprue and it would raise their overall costs by maybe 0.25%. Most kits would stay the same; even stuff like terminators with tons of loadout options would only see the total amount of plastic go up by maybe 20%, because weapons are small compared to bodies.

Plastic is practically free, and the printing is very cheap. The marginal cost of including even 20% more plastic on a sprue is miniscule.

I mean we can even demonstrate this by showing that kits with more weapon options don't cost any more than those with fixed loadouts. GW prices by the unit type and number, not by the weapon options.


That assumes you can fit those weapons to same sprue. Not bigger and def not extra. 3rd sprue would increase gw expenses 50%. 2nd 100%.

Take sprue. Try fitting extra weapons inside frame. Can you do it? If not figure out what bits you leave away. Or increase cost moe than 0.25%.

You didn't think plastic is all that costs did you?
There is plenty of room on plenty of sprues, and/or different design choices could be made. At the end of the day, if they wanted to do it, they could.

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Dakka Veteran





It may be more possible now, but previously, having all weapon options could have been a severe pain.

Death company were a good example of this as the 5 man kit would need:

10 power axes
10 power swords
10 power mauls
10 power lances
10 thunder hammers
10 power fists
10 plasma pistols
10 bolt pistols
10 inferno pistols
10 hand flamers
5 jump packs

There may have been more too, but they essentially had a “pick 2 weapons” option.
No one can honestly say that slapping all of that in a kit wouldn’t change its price as it’s more plastic in extras than the main kit is.

Some kits have no excuse though.
Kanz are a perfect example as options are limited to begin with.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
It's a bit of a Catch-22 with some of these kits.
> Include all weapon options and the kit will jump up in price massively, people complain about GW pricing.

> Only include the minimum weapon options, people complain about GW kits.



No, it wouldn't. They could include all the weapons on every sprue and it would raise their overall costs by maybe 0.25%. Most kits would stay the same; even stuff like terminators with tons of loadout options would only see the total amount of plastic go up by maybe 20%, because weapons are small compared to bodies.

Plastic is practically free, and the printing is very cheap. The marginal cost of including even 20% more plastic on a sprue is miniscule.

I mean we can even demonstrate this by showing that kits with more weapon options don't cost any more than those with fixed loadouts. GW prices by the unit type and number, not by the weapon options.


That assumes you can fit those weapons to same sprue. Not bigger and def not extra. 3rd sprue would increase gw expenses 50%. 2nd 100%.

Take sprue. Try fitting extra weapons inside frame. Can you do it? If not figure out what bits you leave away. Or increase cost moe than 0.25%.

You didn't think plastic is all that costs did you?
There is plenty of room on plenty of sprues, and/or different design choices could be made. At the end of the day, if they wanted to do it, they could.

Take a look at the Chaos Terminator kit as the perfect example. Look at how much room is used for the Trophy Racks. You can't even make the bare squad of just Combi-Bolters and Chainaxes. Utterly disgusting they would even release that kit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jackal90 wrote:
It may be more possible now, but previously, having all weapon options could have been a severe pain.

Death company were a good example of this as the 5 man kit would need:

10 power axes
10 power swords
10 power mauls
10 power lances
10 thunder hammers
10 power fists
10 plasma pistols
10 bolt pistols
10 inferno pistols
10 hand flamers
5 jump packs

There may have been more too, but they essentially had a “pick 2 weapons” option.
No one can honestly say that slapping all of that in a kit wouldn’t change its price as it’s more plastic in extras than the main kit is.

Some kits have no excuse though.
Kanz are a perfect example as options are limited to begin with.

Part of that problem is the sheer differentiation of options (we don't need four different kinds of Power Weapons) and the fact that some loadouts don't make sense. Just because a Death Company Marine can take two different Power Weapons doesn't mean they should, nor would anyone equip two of the same power weapon.

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Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

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tneva82 wrote:
...That assumes you can fit those weapons to same sprue. Not bigger and def not extra. 3rd sprue would increase gw expenses 50%. 2nd 100%.

Take sprue. Try fitting extra weapons inside frame. Can you do it? If not figure out what bits you leave away. Or increase cost moe than 0.25%.

You didn't think plastic is all that costs did you?


Cross-kit reorganization might help. Consider the Tactical/Devastator paradigm for a moment. Right now I can buy three sprues with ten bolter troopers, all four special weapon options, some sergeant kit (fist, sword, chainsword, three pistols, full combi-weapon), and a missile launcher, or I can buy three sprues with five bodies, two full gun/backpack assemblies each for all six heavy weapon options, and some other sergeant kit (fist, sword, axe, LC, thunderhammer, full combi-weapon, full pistol options). I'd have to sit down and do some measuring but I bet you could fit all that on about three sprues if you tried (and did a better job with backpack redundancy). Add in a different sprue of super-ultra-fancy bodies to make Sternguard bodies with, and you've got eight sprues down to four that you could make three or four different kits with by packaging them in different proportions (ex. 2 body sprues/1 HW sprue = Tacticals, 1 body sprue/2 HW sprue = Devastators), or do direct order of individual sprues the way Warlord does if someone wanted, say, a whole load of just bolter bodies without needing to buy extra parts. Similar organization would make it easier/cheaper to keep Mk.III/Mk.IV in production for plastic 30k, too.

Do 30k-style heavy weapons with smaller backpacks and no giant trailing cables and you'd probably even have enough space on the frames to keep all the random pouches and purity seals and things.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/31 05:09:19


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Dakka Veteran





Slayer - people are saying they want all available options.
Can’t then say that X Y or Z isn’t really needed as that’s filtering it down.
If we are filtering it, why not remove every option from the set that currently isn’t a META choice?

Granted, DC were a slightly extreme version due to their older options, but there are plenty of units with stacked options.



As a side note, I honestly hope FW follow suit with smaller companies in regards to “hero building”
You essentially pick the character and options you want.
FW characters for the most part only come with bad options for kit.
   
Made in ca
Revving Ravenwing Biker



Canada

Crazy Jay wrote:
What’s with GW decision to have have 3 model units with with forced mixed weapons? As a DA, Nid, IK player it’s never really come up but I picked up the Indomitus box and decided to keep the Necrons. The units I’m specifically talking about are the Skorpehk Destroys and the Ophydian destroyers. I’m not sure if other boxes/armies are doing it, but I can’t say I’m a fan.


I can't speak for GW, but the issue you raise is quite different than the resulting posts in this thread. The Skorpekhs indeed have fixed armament. This is the opposite "problem" that the complaints in the rest of the posts about needing multiple boxes to optimize load-outs. The Skorpekh out of the box load-out is the only load-out. There is no need to get bits. This is consistent with the Primaris range, and might be indication of GWs design plans going forward.

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