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Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut






Ok, say i want a hyperspace hunter to deal with those pesky DS units that have the habit of popping up at the worst times in the worst places.

5 deathmarks vs 1 hexmark.

I've weighed the pros and cons and my scales teeter back and forth. Hexmark=cheaper, 75 point vs 90. Hexmark gets more shots, at least 6 vs 5, plus even more if it kills something. The hexmark has a higher str gun, 6 vs 5. The hexmark is a character and thus can be screened and given a relic, he rerolls 1's to hit making misses unlikely. He ignores all mods and cover. Pity the fool dumb enough to try charging him if the player has a point to spend on overwatch. In close combat he's more effective than 5 deathmarks if he lives to his shooting phase. (Give him some sort of Inv save relic and this becomes more likely.)

The deathmarks do have a few advantages of their own to consider. Additional MWs on a 6 to hit. Ap2 vs 1, 36" range vs 18", comes with DS, can be deployed thru a monolith or nightscythe with the dimensional breach strat, 5 units to kill vs 1, has RP, core unit benefits, can be resurrected by various units, ignores 'look out sir" so they can pick off characters.

If we expand beyond the hyperspace hunter option, the deathmarks have that long range to dominate a field especially if put in a tower that offers cover. Again the character targeting rules make them nasty for armies that rely on character buffs. Plus built in DS.


Hmm, all in all it looks like a fairly tough choice. Little help here?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/30 16:22:35


"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

Well, the main question I'd ask is what sort of threats you're intending to counter?

Notwithstanding additional buffs, both will kill about 1 Space Marine on average.

Otherwise, the Hexmark leans more towards killing hordes of weak infantry (which are becoming increasingly rare), whilst the Deathmarks can snipe characters (though you'd probably need at least 10 in order to seriously threaten most characters these days).

 blood reaper wrote:
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 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
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 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




The Hexmark does nothing you would want. Deathmarks meanwhile are cool.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal



Colorado

Hexmark has a smaller footprint if you want free VP's from Linebreaker.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Hexmark does nothing you would want.


I'm sure a couple of my opponents wished I believed you.

Besides, they add to my 100% Destroyer cult list. Deathmarks don't.


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Deathmarks meanwhile are cool.


This is true.

Both units have their uses.

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




With their stratagem, Deathmarks offer a unique tactical option. They are also the only form of long range sniping in the army.
   
Made in de
One Canoptek Scarab in a Swarm




I think they have very different use cases in offense and defense. If you want to counter deep striking units, we have to look at what type of deep strike:
If it is GEQ models, the Hexmark wins out every time
If it is MEQ models, both are equally mediocre point for point. However, you can take 10 Deathmarks, but then they become expensive and still not a reliable way to remove 5 marine bodies.

It is worth noting, that Deathmarks profit from Mephrit, while the Hexmark does not really.

For me, Deathmarks are great to hold a backfield objective and threaten characters as a 2nd task. With T5 and 3+ they are decently survivable and if something deepstrikes near your objective, they can answer. Offensively deepstriking I would only use them if you have to perform actions.

The Hexmark is great to get GEQ from enemy backfield objectives, as a single infantry model is much harder to screen out than 10 Deathmarks. He also is decent in melee if you try/have to charge after shooting your target. However, as already stated, Space Marines are nor really his preferred enemies, so if you see/play them a lot he might not be the best choice.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




ccs wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Hexmark does nothing you would want.


I'm sure a couple of my opponents wished I believed you.

Besides, they add to my 100% Destroyer cult list. Deathmarks don't.


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Deathmarks meanwhile are cool.


This is true.

Both units have their uses.


Uh no. The Hexmark really has no role that can't be fulfilled elsewhere for better. The GEQ killing output isn't even good.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




I'm sure a couple of my opponents wished I believed you.

Besides, they add to my 100% Destroyer cult list. Deathmarks don't.


After a ton of games with him, I finally dropped my Hexmark for the equivalent amount of points in Scarab bases. Found him to be utterly and completely useless as everything I wanted him to do, something else in the army (that I was likely already taking anyway) did way better. That said, I REALLY like the model and want him to work. What are you using him for that he's been good for you?

I know a lot of folks want him for line breaker and to extend command protocols, but I've given up on command protocols in favor of the custom Dynasty that pretty much everyone has settled on (command protocols, for all the conditions you have to meet, just don't do enough to be worth it imo), and I rarely take linebreaker. It's usually Engage, and 'crons have tons of units that will get you that easily enough.


OP-

Some good points have been raised here, but my strictly anecdotal experience has led me to not take either unit. If I had to pick one though, it's going to be Deathmarks every time. Regardless of opponent.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





I concur with the opinion to take neither unless you are facing a Guard army - in which case take Deathmarks to snipe those squishy characters throwing out orders.

Beyond that, unless you’re lucky, they are just not worth it in terms of points.
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut






Great replies, thanks.

To be honest i was ready to write off the hexmark as a kinda dumb idea, then i saw this video.

https://youtu.be/ysK1trTNtsY

The gist is that the necron player had a small scarab squad holding an objective in a back corner with no other units nearby that was giving him VPs. The eldar DS'd a unit of vanilla guardians close to them with the intent of killing them off and taking the objective.

The necron played his intercept strat and cut down 6 guardians on their turn with his fire while being outside their range. The remaining 4 guardians could not generate enough wounds to kill off the swarm and it held the objective, giving the necron more VP. Next turn the hexmark dispatched the remaining 4 guardians.

So the objective was held and helped the necron player win the game. The hexmark clearly earned back his points.


Well, that batrep sure proved a hexmark can be worth it.

I was thinking of the hexmark as a roadblock or an objective taker. Is that unit of melee specialists heading somewhere you don;t want them to go? Drop a death deathmark in their path and have him fire on them, then if they want to keep going they have to charge him. One CP and they eat another round of his fire, hitting on 2's in OW and rerolling ones, and firing again for every kill.

If you were smart you gave him a relic that confers an inv save so maybe he survives their attack and gets to fire on them again in his shooting phase. 3 rounds of his fire is going to hurt most units.

Mot players would never think to use a hexmark as a close combat unit, but they can be effective there if kitted right. Sure he may be killed, but if he stops that melee unit from scoring VPs or taking them from you,that's what matters.

So yeah, i was down on the hexmark at first but saw it maybe being useful once and rethought it.

The deathmarks do get to ignore 'look out sir' which is good for characters that are important to the enemy. Add in the MW on a 6 to hit. Plus the core unit buffs they can get....

Both can be very useful in certain cases, and damn near useless in others. That situation usually makes for a tough choice, but those are part of what makes the game fun.

Looks like this thread is leaning towards the deathmarks, and i may go there as i was thinking of doing them in black as a contrast to my usual colors.











This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/30 17:21:41


"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




The gist is that the necron player had a small scarab squad holding an objective in a back corner with no other units nearby that was giving him VPs. The eldar DS'd a unit of vanilla guardians close to them with the intent of killing them off and taking the objective.

The necron played his intercept strat and cut down 6 guardians on their turn with his fire while being outside their range. The remaining 4 guardians could not generate enough wounds to kill off the swarm and it held the objective, giving the necron more VP. Next turn the hexmark dispatched the remaining 4 guardians.

So the objective was held and helped the necron player win the game. The hexmark clearly earned back his points.


Well, that batrep sure proved a hexmark can be worth it.


It is an interesting case, but is highly situational. If you end up pursuing this route, I'd be interested to hear your results. Speaking for myself, he proved "worth it" something like 1 out of every 5 games if that. Not a great track record, but like I said, I'd LOVE to see him be better. If someone figures it out, I'll be massively grateful because it might be my current favorite model.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Hellacious Havoc





I liked the 8E Deathmarks better. You could take a max size squad and actually threaten a character, expecially with Mephrit. But without the Rapid Fire I don't think they'll have as much effect on the battle as something else you might take. Once in a blue moon you'll get a "Yahtzee" and smoke something, but a unit less dependent on luck will perform better most games.

The Hexmark I think has a better chance to make a decisive impact against Harlequins, Repentia and similar, but if half or more of your games will be against some form of marine, it still might not be worth taking one.
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut






I did just double check and it is hard to give a hexmark an inv save now, some of the stuff that did that is gone.

I do think the HM could stand a little buffing. Maybe MW on a 6 to hit, not an additional MW on top of existing damage like a deathmark, just that one hit does a MW. Or a 6 to his has an ap 4 as a headshot. Either one.

As for dynasties he really benefits from the mephrit, AP 2 at 9" and in melee is a god boost.

"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
ccs wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Hexmark does nothing you would want.


I'm sure a couple of my opponents wished I believed you.

Besides, they add to my 100% Destroyer cult list. Deathmarks don't.


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Deathmarks meanwhile are cool.


This is true.

Both units have their uses.


Uh no. The Hexmark really has no role that can't be fulfilled elsewhere for better.


Uh, yeah. It does. and it depends upon your list/playstyle.
See, one of my Necron lists that I enjoy playing is a pure Destroyer Cult list. {I'm also 100% certain I'm not the only Necron player out there running pure Destroyers} Please show me another Destroyer unit that has Dimensional Translocation (an ability that I've found very useful btw). I'll wait patiently while you go check since your not very familiar with Necrons.

Could I spend CP to put other Destroyer types in reserve for a similar effect? Yes. Yes I could. (and sometimes do) But, since there are no Destroyer Cult troops, in order to play this pure Destroyer Cult force I have to pay CP to access Vanguard/Spearhead/Outrider detachments. At 3 CP per & not getting any back for the one my warlords in that adds up quick & I DO have things to spend CP on during the game - assuming I'm playing at the Incursion/2k pt lv where I have 12 CP to start with. If the games smaller that that I'll have spent my initial CP just putting my army on the table.
So yeah, my Hexmarks not needing CP for Translocation is pretty important.


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The GEQ killing output isn't even good.


Am I mistaken in reading GEQ as Guard Equivalent (1w, 4+ or worse saves)?
Or do you just not understand what 6 S6/AP-1 (maybe -2 Mephrit & at 9" or less) if /D1 shots that hit on 2+, ignoring all Ballistic & Cover modifiers do to lightly/non-armored 1W squads? Oh yeah, and for each one killed? I shoot them again with all that gravy.
Sometimes, depending upon the target & if I'm playing Mephrit & have a CP, I'll throw Talent of Annihilation into the mix as well for an extra possible +3 MWs.
I've also been known to then charge the survivors.
And if I've got any CP left? GO AHEAD, CHARGE ME. I'll gladly take another 6+ shots at you out of turn that all hit on unmodifed rolls of 2+.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tycho wrote:
I'm sure a couple of my opponents wished I believed you.

Besides, they add to my 100% Destroyer cult list. Deathmarks don't.


After a ton of games with him, I finally dropped my Hexmark for the equivalent amount of points in Scarab bases. Found him to be utterly and completely useless as everything I wanted him to do, something else in the army (that I was likely already taking anyway) did way better. That said, I REALLY like the model and want him to work. What are you using him for that he's been good for you?


1) Often using them in a pure Destroyer list where CP is too tight to put something else in Strat Reserve.
2) Generally throwing them into the opponents backfield to seize objectives &/or root out annoying hard to target units. I value the ability to target such units highly. With some forces I have the ability to hit these units with indirect fire of my own. Other times I need to send deepstrike type units or aircraft to do the job. In my pure Destroyer force? This task falls to my Hexmark(s) as my beloved Doomscythes aren't Destroyers & CP is often short.
3) Causing all the behind the lines havoc I can & diverting attention away from other units. And if they ignore my Hexmark(s)? Great, I'll just continue shooting things up.

The Intercept Strat has also been useful on a few occasions.
I've also been known to equip one with a Veil of Darkness. "So you thought the Glocktopus was busy waaay over there & out of range huh? SURPRISE!"

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/30 20:00:29


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




You putting artifical restrictions on your list is your own fault, and no you have obviously not done the math on Hexmarks and their killing ability of GEQ units.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You putting artifical restrictions on your list is your own fault, and no you have obviously not done the math on Hexmarks and their killing ability of GEQ units.


You're the one telling us there's no use for a model that I get plenty of good use out of.....
Me? I'm telling you how I get that use out of them.
As for an artificial restriction? No more so than anyone else playing some sub-faction of their force. I also like Deathmarks & play other mixes of Necrons. Different tools in different lists though.

Math? vs GEQ?
I shoot 6 times, I hit on 2+, I wound on 2+, All those T3 Guard, Eldar, Tau warriors, small Tyranids, etc & such have 1W & save on 5+ at best against my Hexmark. For each one of those initial wounds that kills I shoot them once more. SoB? Still wounding on 2+ though they save on a 4+(before accounting for any of their magic). Orks? Oh, I only wound them on 3+:(
That's a pretty good return for a single 75pt shooty Necron Infantry Character....


But see, I actually play this game & in the past 3 months have shot upkilled squads of:
Guard,
Cultists,
SoB,
Orks,
Tau,
Eldar (guardians & Aspects),
Pox walkers,
Death Guard,
generic Marines,
Grey Knights (power armor & termies),
Thousand Sons (power armor),
assorted characters
put holes in a few vehicles (not my preferred Hex target, but when necessary....).
And just before Christmas? A pair of Hexmarks shot up Magnus. Ok, that one was a hail Mary & they didn't kill him, but they did get lucky & soften him up. Wich was the goal.
My Hexmarks have also scored victory pts. and drawn fire.

They've earned their paint.

BTW, have you found me another Destroyer unit yet that has Translocation?
Or maybe you can you show me another unit in my chosen sub-faction that does what I'm using my Hexmark(s) for??

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I like you still refused to actually do the math and used "GW salespitch math" instead. Also once again you're bringing up your artifical restrictions of "must be Destroyer and have Deep Strike" as though that were something that mattered whatsoever. It doesn't, sorry. Spending a CP to do Deep Strike with literally any other unit would be smarter than investing in a Hexmark.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Why ask for Math Hammer when he has in-game experience? Does practical, self-earned experience not outweigh theory every single time?

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think both units are fine really. I don't know about top-top tier, but a lot of the bleating on Hexmarks is "I'm shooting Intercessors, I never get lucky". In which case, sure, probably not great. But there are other armies out there where they are quite deadly for a mere 75 points. I think having a bit of deep strike is always good because it means people can't completely abandon their deployment zone (or leave a couple of 50~ point squads there) to move into the mid-board.

As I think Vipoid said in the first post, 5 Deathmarks is probably the wrong way to run them if you are taking them. Barring a fairly high level of luck, you are just going to tickle a character. I think you want to take 10 - but at that point its a fairly serious investment and if you don't get a good Aetheric Interception I think its a bit too high versus putting the points into say Immortals (or, if you were taking immortals anyway, something else entirely.)
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Why ask for Math Hammer when he has in-game experience? Does practical, self-earned experience not outweigh theory every single time?

It doesn't. Take me for example. GW decided to not stock up my place with tons of indomitus boxs. You would struggle to imagine how different the meta is when all marines can't run 9, most can't even run 3, melta dudes and blade guards.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
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In My Lab

I like math, so math.

Each shot has a (5/6)(5/6)(5/6) or (5/6)^3 chance of killing a GEQ (T3 5+ W1 model). That equals 125/216, or 58%.

Each kill generates an extra shot, so that's (125/216)^2 for each shot to kill two, or 15,625/46,656 chance. 33%, if you prefer percents.

To put another way, each shot will kill...

0 GEQs 42% of the time (91/216)
1 GEQ 25% of the time (125/216-15,625/46,656)
2 GEQ 33% of the time (15,625/46,656)

With 6 shots, that's an average of 5.46 GEQ killed per volley. Which is... Not bad, but also not that great for a 75 Point character that doesn't do much else.

Edit: If you're using a Hexmark to drop in, do actions/score objectives and be easy to hide, I see value in that. I don't see as much value in killing power of it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/30 22:11:46


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Shots are more accurate than that, as Destroyers have a native re-roll 1’s to hit, turning the chance of a miss into 1/36.

And if it’s within 6” of a Destroyer Lord, it’s getting to re-roll 1’s to wound, without spending CP.

In context of the game, Hexmark are a pain for stuff camping on objectives because it ignores the benefit of cover, and any hit modifier.

This also makes them pretty handy for going after enemy Snipers. Not only do those tend to come in fairly small units, but several come with Chameoline or a variant. Terrain allowing, the Hexmark can pop up in range and line of sight, with a comfortable chance of gutting most Sniper type units, if not wiping out the lightest entirely.

Will that necessarily earn his points back? Depends if he’s then in a position to bother other units really. But taking out enemy Snipers can seriously interfere with enemy plans, as they may be left with few options to cut down characters. Even thinning down their numbers works. Eliminators for instance can be nasty. But once they start losing models, their effectiveness starts to plummet - especially if their aggressor attracts a bout of return fire from them.

And, as ever, it really doesn’t take much skewing of Strict Averages to turn it into a serious killing machine, especially given how reliable his stats make his shots.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

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In My Lab

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Shots are more accurate than that, as Destroyers have a native re-roll 1’s to hit, turning the chance of a miss into 1/36.

And if it’s within 6” of a Destroyer Lord, it’s getting to re-roll 1’s to wound, without spending CP.

In context of the game, Hexmark are a pain for stuff camping on objectives because it ignores the benefit of cover, and any hit modifier.

This also makes them pretty handy for going after enemy Snipers. Not only do those tend to come in fairly small units, but several come with Chameoline or a variant. Terrain allowing, the Hexmark can pop up in range and line of sight, with a comfortable chance of gutting most Sniper type units, if not wiping out the lightest entirely.

Will that necessarily earn his points back? Depends if he’s then in a position to bother other units really. But taking out enemy Snipers can seriously interfere with enemy plans, as they may be left with few options to cut down characters. Even thinning down their numbers works. Eliminators for instance can be nasty. But once they start losing models, their effectiveness starts to plummet - especially if their aggressor attracts a bout of return fire from them.

And, as ever, it really doesn’t take much skewing of Strict Averages to turn it into a serious killing machine, especially given how reliable his stats make his shots.
Good to know. I did not have any RR1s in there, which would increase the results to...

(35/36)(5/6)^2=875/1,296 or 68%
(875/1,296)^2=765,625/1,679,616 or 46%

0 GEQ 32%
1 GEQ 22%
2 GEQ 46%

1.14 GEQ killed per shot, or 6.84 with six shots.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Why ask for Math Hammer when he has in-game experience? Does practical, self-earned experience not outweigh theory every single time?

One time I had a Librarian kill Abbadon and a Daemon Prince in the same game within two turns (granted Abigail lost 3 wounds from a Smite) but you haven't seen me make posts about him being a good counter to either of those, have you? Why not use that in-game experience when talking about what kills a Daemon Prince in melee?

That's because I know the realistic expectation instead of the GW Salespitch. Saying what a unit CAN do with max good rolls is not close to what a unit will usually do.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






For Lolz?

Burn a CP, and give it Gauntlet of the Conflagrator.

12” Pistol. Instead of normal attacks, instead roll a D6 for each model in the enemy unit. Each 6 causes a Mortal Wound.

Good luck charging that Hexmark!

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Hey look! It’s my 2025 Hobby Log/Blog/Project/Whatevs 
   
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For Lolz?

Burn a CP, and give it Gauntlet of the Conflagrator.

12” Pistol. Instead of normal attacks, instead roll a D6 for each model in the enemy unit. Each 6 causes a Mortal Wound.

Good luck charging that Hexmark!
Pretty sure its base weapon is deadlier in most cases.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Why ask for Math Hammer when he has in-game experience? Does practical, self-earned experience not outweigh theory every single time?

One time I had a Librarian kill Abbadon and a Daemon Prince in the same game within two turns (granted Abigail lost 3 wounds from a Smite) but you haven't seen me make posts about him being a good counter to either of those, have you? Why not use that in-game experience when talking about what kills a Daemon Prince in melee?

That's because I know the realistic expectation instead of the GW Salespitch. Saying what a unit CAN do with max good rolls is not close to what a unit will usually do.


Wrap this in your math hammer then dude.

Based on the Hexmark’s stats, and targeting, to continue the example, GWQ (T3, W1, Sv5+).

No other boosts or debuffs, just it’s native re-roll 1’s to hit.

Tell me the chances of it killing nothing, it’s average kill expectancy, then its chance of a Max Kill situation.

I mean, it’s still kind of a trick question, as I’d still rely on a player’s actual gaming experience, as those factor in all the variables (choice of targets, impact on game, subsequent enemy reactions etc). But please, math hammer away for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For Lolz?

Burn a CP, and give it Gauntlet of the Conflagrator.

12” Pistol. Instead of normal attacks, instead roll a D6 for each model in the enemy unit. Each 6 causes a Mortal Wound.

Good luck charging that Hexmark!
Pretty sure its base weapon is deadlier in most cases.


Burny Glove is an additional, not replacement weapon

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/30 22:45:17


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Why ask for Math Hammer when he has in-game experience? Does practical, self-earned experience not outweigh theory every single time?

One time I had a Librarian kill Abbadon and a Daemon Prince in the same game within two turns (granted Abigail lost 3 wounds from a Smite) but you haven't seen me make posts about him being a good counter to either of those, have you? Why not use that in-game experience when talking about what kills a Daemon Prince in melee?

That's because I know the realistic expectation instead of the GW Salespitch. Saying what a unit CAN do with max good rolls is not close to what a unit will usually do.


Wrap this in your math hammer then dude.

Based on the Hexmark’s stats, and targeting, to continue the example, GWQ (T3, W1, Sv5+).

No other boosts or debuffs, just it’s native re-roll 1’s to hit.

Tell me the chances of it killing nothing, it’s average kill expectancy, then its chance of a Max Kill situation.

I mean, it’s still kind of a trick question, as I’d still rely on a player’s actual gaming experience, as those factor in all the variables (choice of targets, impact on game, subsequent enemy reactions etc). But please, math hammer away for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For Lolz?

Burn a CP, and give it Gauntlet of the Conflagrator.

12” Pistol. Instead of normal attacks, instead roll a D6 for each model in the enemy unit. Each 6 causes a Mortal Wound.

Good luck charging that Hexmark!
Pretty sure its base weapon is deadlier in most cases.


Burny Glove is an additional, not replacement weapon
To the latter... Neat!

To the former...

Average already calculated.

Odds of doing NOTHING on a shot is 32%, according to Anydice. So odds of doing nothing at all is (.32)^6, or about a tenth of a percent.

Odds of killing 12 GEQ is about .9%, or nine times as likely.

But, that'll happen less than one in every hundred games, on average. And it requires you to be shooting a squad of 12+ GEQ, which, to my knowledge, are not common even in armies that use GEQ.

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Max Kill sounds surprisingly low? Mind you, as demonstrated earlier today in the Hachette thread, maths is exactly my strong suit.

I know enough for day to day, and that averages aren’t be all and end all, so I’ve no reason to doubt your findings. But still seems low to my eyes.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Hey look! It’s my 2025 Hobby Log/Blog/Project/Whatevs 
   
 
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