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2021/01/07 17:17:12
Subject: GW clarified about shooting from inside transports
If you didnt notice yet, new FAQs are out. I would like talk about those new rules.
Spoiler:
*Page 363, Rare Rules
Add the following:
Shooting Whilst Embarked on a Transport
Some rules, such as Open-topped, enable units to shoot and
make ranged attacks even while embarked within a Transport
model. Each time such an embarked unit is selected to shoot, the
following rules apply to it:
1. Stratagems cannot be used on that unit in order to affect its
attacks, and you cannot use the Command Re-roll Stratagem
to affect any dice rolls made for its models’ ranged attacks.
2. Measure distances and draw line of sight from any point on
the Transport model when models in that unit make the
ranged attacks.
3. If the Transport model made a Normal Move, Advanced,
Fell Back or Remained Stationary this turn, embarked units
are considered to have done the same when they make
ranged attacks.
4. While the Transport model is within Engagement Range of
any enemy units, unless the ability that the Transport model
has that allows its passengers to shoot whilst embarked states
otherwise, then models in embarked units cannot make
ranged attacks, except with Pistols.
5. Unless specifically stated otherwise, the embarked unit is
not affected by the abilities (including aura abilities) of any
other unit, even if that unit is also embarked within the same
Transport model.
6. If the unit was under the effects of a rule when it embarked on
the Transport model (such as rules bestowed on it during the
Command phase, by a psychic power or a Stratagem etc.) those
rules do not apply to that unit whilst it is embarked.
7. Any abilities (including Detachment abilities) that models in
an embarked unit have, or that their weapons have, continue to
apply when they make ranged attacks.
8. If a restriction applies to the Transport model, that same
restriction applies to units embarked within it. For example,
if the Transport model is not eligible to shoot with because it
has Advanced or Fallen Back this turn, its passengers are not
eligible to shoot with.
9. If a Transport model is under the effects of a modifier to its
ranged attacks (such as a modifier to its hit rolls, wound rolls,
etc.) the same modifier applies each time an embarked model
makes a ranged attack.
How does no. 5 interact with no. 9 ? What if i have an aura ability which is +1 to hit for VEHICLES, and an open topped transporter with an embarked unit is within range ? No. 5 says the embarked units are not affected, but no. 9 says the modifier applies ??
How does no. 9 interact with the Ork FAQ which says that stratagems used on transport dont affect the embarked units ?
Spoiler:
Q: Do Stratagems used on a Transport affect units embarked
within that transport? For example, if I use More Dakka! on
a Battlewagon, do any units embarked inside benefit from it?
In addition, can you use Stratagems on units embarked within
a transport (e.g. can you use Showin’ Off on a Bad Moons
Infantry unit embarked within a Battlewagon)?
A: No to both.
2021/01/07 17:59:18
Subject: GW clarified about shooting from inside transports
Rule 5 says embarked units can't be affected by aura or abilities even if characters are embarked within.
Rule 9 allow embarked units to use or be affected by any modifier (wich is not an ability or an aura even if it's provided by) wich is already affecting the vehicle.
The Ork faq no contradices point 9 wich only allows embarked units to be affected by same modifiers the transport it's.
P.S: quick example made out of my mind if you were to play a stratagem that provides an ability and a modifier on the transport like it gest extra hits on 6+ and can add +1 to his BS, the embarked unit wouldn't get the extra hits ability but would take advantage of the +1 BS modifier affecting the transport.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/07 18:02:17
2021/01/07 18:04:35
Subject: Re:GW clarified about shooting from inside transports
8. If a restriction applies to the Transport model, that same
restriction applies to units embarked within it. For example,
if the Transport model is not eligible to shoot with because it
has Advanced or Fallen Back this turn, its passengers are not
eligible to shoot with.
-- harlequin transports do not have "Rising Crescendo" so they can not fall back and shoot. But...
7. Any abilities (including Detachment abilities) that models in
an embarked unit have, or that their weapons have, continue to
apply when they make ranged attacks
-- harlequin troupes have "Rising Crescendo" allowing them to fall back and shoot.
Does this mean the unit inside can still fall back and shoot even if the vehicle falls back?
2021/01/07 18:09:59
Subject: Re:GW clarified about shooting from inside transports
8. If a restriction applies to the Transport model, that same
restriction applies to units embarked within it. For example,
if the Transport model is not eligible to shoot with because it
has Advanced or Fallen Back this turn, its passengers are not
eligible to shoot with.
-- harlequin transports do not have "Rising Crescendo" so they can not fall back and shoot. But...
7. Any abilities (including Detachment abilities) that models in
an embarked unit have, or that their weapons have, continue to
apply when they make ranged attacks
-- harlequin troupes have "Rising Crescendo" allowing them to fall back and shoot.
Does this mean the unit inside can still fall back and shoot even if the vehicle falls back?
As i understand a troupe falling back and embarking could still shoot since it would keep the ability, but not if the unit falling back it's the transport since it's lack the ability by itself.
2021/01/07 18:11:35
Subject: GW clarified about shooting from inside transports
p5freak wrote: 1. Stratagems cannot be used on that unit in order to affect its
attacks, and you cannot use the Command Re-roll Stratagem
to affect any dice rolls made for its models’ ranged attacks.
Well this is just arbitrary. I can see the logic behind most of the other rules, but not this one.
p5freak wrote: 1. Stratagems cannot be used on that unit in order to affect its attacks, and you cannot use the Command Re-roll Stratagem to affect any dice rolls made for its models’ ranged attacks.
Well this is just arbitrary. I can see the logic behind most of the other rules, but not this one.
Not really. Command-Reroll targets a specific dice roll, without regards to the source. So RAW, Command-Reroll can be used for shooting attacks being made by units embarked on open-topped transport even if stratagems cannot be targeted at the occupants making those attacks.
Without this, you'd end up with "You cannot use stratagems on units embarked on a transport, but you can use stratagems on the units' resolution of phases," which is even more arbitrary and illogical.
It's an incredible catch from GW, really.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/07 21:13:44
2021/01/07 21:19:07
Subject: GW clarified about shooting from inside transports
p5freak wrote: 1. Stratagems cannot be used on that unit in order to affect its
attacks, and you cannot use the Command Re-roll Stratagem
to affect any dice rolls made for its models’ ranged attacks.
Well this is just arbitrary. I can see the logic behind most of the other rules, but not this one.
How is the ruling for one Stratagem matching that for all others “arbitrary”? It’s staggeringly consistent.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2021/01/07 21:25:36
Subject: GW clarified about shooting from inside transports
p5freak wrote: 1. Stratagems cannot be used on that unit in order to affect its
attacks, and you cannot use the Command Re-roll Stratagem
to affect any dice rolls made for its models’ ranged attacks.
Well this is just arbitrary. I can see the logic behind most of the other rules, but not this one.
How is the ruling for one Stratagem matching that for all others “arbitrary”? It’s staggeringly consistent.
I think he's coming short of seeing the implications of why they needed to single out the command re-roll stratagem to be reiterated.
2021/01/07 21:31:19
Subject: Re:GW clarified about shooting from inside transports
-Guardsman- wrote: To clarify: I don't understand why stratagems cannot apply to the shooting of units inside transports.
I understand why auras don't work on them, but not why stratagems don't.
Because GW says so.
This. The designers don’t want them to. Prevents potential edge cases I guess. And stops units you can’t shoot being buffed. Makes sense.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2021/01/07 22:23:07
Subject: GW clarified about shooting from inside transports
7. Any abilities (including Detachment abilities) that models in an embarked unit have, or that their weapons have, continue to apply when they make ranged attacks.
8. If a restriction applies to the Transport model, that same restriction applies to units embarked within it. For example, if the Transport model is not eligible to shoot with because it has Advanced or Fallen Back this turn, its passengers are not eligible to shoot with.
Codex Sisters of Battle, Retributors wrote:Faithful Advance: models in this unit do not suffer the penalties for moving and firing Heavy weapons.
I presume that to resolve this the logic would be:
1. Whatever applies to the vehicle, applies to the unit inside (point 8). 2. The vehicle has moved, therefore heavy weapons suffer a penalty. 3. Units keep their own rules when embarked (point 7). 4. Retributors can move and fire Heavy weapons without penalty, therefore they essentially ignore point 8 from above.
Right?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/01/07 23:57:00
Lord Perversor wrote: Rule 5 says embarked units can't be affected by aura or abilities even if characters are embarked within.
Rule 9 allow embarked units to use or be affected by any modifier (wich is not an ability or an aura even if it's provided by) wich is already affecting the vehicle.
The Ork faq no contradices point 9 wich only allows embarked units to be affected by same modifiers the transport it's.
P.S: quick example made out of my mind if you were to play a stratagem that provides an ability and a modifier on the transport like it gest extra hits on 6+ and can add +1 to his BS, the embarked unit wouldn't get the extra hits ability but would take advantage of the +1 BS modifier affecting the transport.
Orks also have a spell that provides reroll all hits to a vehicle.
If that spell is cast, which is not a stratagem or an aura, does it count as an ability or a modifier? Does point 5 or 9 apply to that spell.
2021/01/08 00:27:22
Subject: GW clarified about shooting from inside transports
7. Any abilities (including Detachment abilities) that models in an embarked unit have, or that their weapons have, continue to apply when they make ranged attacks.
8. If a restriction applies to the Transport model, that same restriction applies to units embarked within it. For example, if the Transport model is not eligible to shoot with because it has Advanced or Fallen Back this turn, its passengers are not eligible to shoot with.
Codex Sisters of Battle, Retributors wrote:Faithful Advance: models in this unit do not suffer the penalties for moving and firing Heavy weapons.
I presume that to resolve this the logic would be:
1. Whatever applies to the vehicle, applies to the unit inside (point 8).
2. The vehicle has moved, therefore heavy weapons suffer a penalty.
3. Units keep their own rules when embarked (point 7).
4. Retributors can move and fire Heavy weapons without penalty, therefore they essentially ignore point 8 from above.
Right?
Correct. The unit counts as moving since the Transport did. However, the unit does not suffer any penalty for moving and firing Heavy Weapons per the unit's ability.
2021/01/08 05:09:05
Subject: Re:GW clarified about shooting from inside transports
5. Unless specifically stated otherwise, the embarked unit is
not affected by the abilities (including aura abilities) of any
other unit, even if that unit is also embarked within the same
Transport model.
I really wish they had written friendly unit. As it's worded, embarked units can ignore the -1 to hit abilities that enemy units have.
Orks also have a spell that provides reroll all hits to a vehicle.
If that spell is cast, which is not a stratagem or an aura, does it count as an ability or a modifier? Does point 5 or 9 apply to that spell.
Visions in the smoke only works on vehicles, not embarked units. A psyker can't target a unit to buff that isn't on the board anyway.
And it's definitely not a modifier: modifiers are - or + X to hit/wound/ld/save, etc... not re-rolls. So if an Evil Sunz psyker buffs a transport the ability doesn't apply to the embarked unit.
2021/01/08 11:44:42
Subject: GW clarified about shooting from inside transports
7. Any abilities (including Detachment abilities) that models in an embarked unit have, or that their weapons have, continue to apply when they make ranged attacks.
8. If a restriction applies to the Transport model, that same restriction applies to units embarked within it. For example, if the Transport model is not eligible to shoot with because it has Advanced or Fallen Back this turn, its passengers are not eligible to shoot with.
Codex Sisters of Battle, Retributors wrote:Faithful Advance: models in this unit do not suffer the penalties for moving and firing Heavy weapons.
I presume that to resolve this the logic would be:
1. Whatever applies to the vehicle, applies to the unit inside (point 8).
2. The vehicle has moved, therefore heavy weapons suffer a penalty.
3. Units keep their own rules when embarked (point 7).
4. Retributors can move and fire Heavy weapons without penalty, therefore they essentially ignore point 8 from above.
Right?
Partially: If your step 2) is refering to a Normal Move, then you're correct - they still ignore the modifier due to moving. But if the transport is Advancing or Falling Back, this still applies to Retributors that only get to ignore the modifier for heavy weapons when moving. If Retributors Advance or Fall Back, they can't shoot. So if their transport Advances, point 8 comes into play and prevents them from shooting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/08 11:45:22
2021/01/08 19:34:11
Subject: Re:GW clarified about shooting from inside transports
8. If a restriction applies to the Transport model, that same
restriction applies to units embarked within it. For example,
if the Transport model is not eligible to shoot with because it
has Advanced or Fallen Back this turn, its passengers are not
eligible to shoot with.
-- harlequin transports do not have "Rising Crescendo" so they can not fall back and shoot. But...
7. Any abilities (including Detachment abilities) that models in
an embarked unit have, or that their weapons have, continue to
apply when they make ranged attacks
-- harlequin troupes have "Rising Crescendo" allowing them to fall back and shoot.
Does this mean the unit inside can still fall back and shoot even if the vehicle falls back?
As i understand a troupe falling back and embarking could still shoot since it would keep the ability, but not if the unit falling back it's the transport since it's lack the ability by itself.
However we need to keep point 3 in mind.
3. If the Transport model made a Normal Move, Advanced,
Fell Back or Remained Stationary this turn, embarked units
are considered to have done the same when they make
ranged attacks.
so if and embarked quin troupe is in a starweaver that fell back the troupe also fell back and because of point 3, they would not be able to shoot because of point 8. the starweaver does not have the ability to fallback and shoot, but point 7 is also in effect and the troupe still keeps and is effected by "Rising Crescendo" and since they are consider to have fallen back point 3, they can shoot.
So the question is in this case does 7 or 8 take precidence?
2021/01/08 19:55:39
Subject: GW clarified about shooting from inside transports
Yes, unsurprisingly it works exactly as people have been playing instead of picking the other interpretation that breaks the game.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2021/01/09 13:07:19
Subject: GW clarified about shooting from inside transports
Jidmah wrote: Yes, unsurprisingly it works exactly as people have been playing instead of picking the other interpretation that breaks the game.
Really ? People have been playing embarked units arent affected by -1 to hit, -1 to wound ? They arent affected by MW reflected back on the shooter ? Because thats how its played. GW confirmed this with no. 5. Any other unit is every unit in the game, including enemy units.
Unless specifically stated otherwise, the embarked unit is not affected by the abilities (including aura abilities) of any other unit, even if that unit is also embarked within the same Transport model.
2021/01/09 15:20:16
Subject: GW clarified about shooting from inside transports
Yes, exactly that way. Unit gets to keep own rules, ignores all others. Modifiers have been and are still explicitly stated to work.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/09 15:21:32
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2021/01/11 15:42:24
Subject: Re:GW clarified about shooting from inside transports
Well, I for one am happy that my Bladed Cog detachment with Jackal Alphus and Neophytes in Goliath trucks works as expected, with Neophytes both keeping their BC rules and also benefiting from the Jackal's aura through the truck.
2021/01/14 21:58:09
Subject: GW clarified about shooting from inside transports
Kitane wrote: Well, I for one am happy that my Bladed Cog detachment with Jackal Alphus and Neophytes in Goliath trucks works as expected, with Neophytes both keeping their BC rules and also benefiting from the Jackal's aura through the truck.
