Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

After having a rather crushing defeat against the Space Wolves I'm pretty much at a loss on what to do. I need some tactical advice

My List:

House Taranis
1 Castelan (2 Siegebreakers, Ion Bulwark, Cawl's Wrath)
1 Knight Warden (Sanctuary, Thunderstrike, Stormspear)
2 Armiger Helverins

Expansionist FW/Rugged Explorators
1 Tech-Priest Manipulus
1x10 Secutarii Hoplites
1x10 Secutarii Peltasts
2x10 Skitarii Vanguards Squads with 3 Plasmas each

Idea was to have a good and fluffy screen that can keep pace with the knights if needed and give especially the castelan the time needed to do work, keep eradicators and other outflankers out and stall assaults.

His list:

Librarian
Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf
1x10 Assault Intercessors
1x9 Blood Claws
1x10 Grey Hunters /w Wolf Standard
1x3 Aggressors
1x5 Wolf Guard Terminators /w Storm Shields
1x3 Outrider Squad
1x3 Eradicator Squad (Melta Rifles)
1 Stormfang Gunship
1 Rhino

While I realize the Skitarii detachment isnt very strong, I primarily intended it to buy me time which... they hardly did.
Here's a pic while he was taking his T1 (forgot to snap one earlier).

Main problem is that the screen evaporated VERY quickly, basically doing nothing except delaying the reserves from arriving T2 because there was no good spot left. The Knights did SOME work, but by far not enough to stem the tide. When the screen was broken, it was pretty mich GG and I conceded in T4.
If anyone has an idea on how to deal with this, especially Wolf Guard Terminators that DS in cover and charge from there, I'd be delighted

Rough rundown:

T1:
I had everything screened out pretty well, nowhere to deepstrike for him. I only lost 3 skitarii to shooting from the Outriders T1.
In return, I killed the outriders, the aggressors, the rhino and a few Grey Hunters using the hoplites.
I then charged the Grey Hunters, losing 4 hoplites to overwatch, dealing 1 wound in the ensuing combat (barricades were melee cover) and got wiped in return while dealing 1 or 2 wounds via the mag inverter shields. Boy that one stung a bit.
The Vanguard on the right rose the banner.

T2
Stormfang Gunship flew in, targeting the Castelan. Meltas were out of range, still took 13 damage. With nowhere to deepstrike, he delayed his reinforcements until t3.
Grey Hunters and the Assault Intercessors moved up, fired and charged some skitarii I put in the ruins to the left, which caused the surviving 2 to flee. The Grey Hunters shot the remaining 2 Skitarii Rangers on the right objective and moved forward, taking the objective.

Having killed his protection and his base too big, I poured the Knight Warden into the Wolf Lord, killing it. Vanguard fired at the grey hunters with overcharge, killing 2, but 1 ones caused the plasma to evaporate, then charged, flailing a bit at the marines then getting dusted. Peltasts on the left moved onto the objective.
I split fired the Castelan into the Stormwolf, putting it down to 7 with the rest of the weapons into his backfield objective holders, only getting 2.

T3 - this is where it becomes hard to remember what exactly happened.
This is where it fell apart.With the screen gone.... Drop pod came in directly on my edge of the battlefield, Terminators deep struck on the right flank with the Erads behind them. A, basically, 0+/4++ is tough to break... erads did not that much damage, "just" 5 to the warden.
I tried to kill the termies somewhat, but with that kind of save - unlikely. The Wolf Guard failed the charge, Blood claws from the DP didnt.

I tried to kill the Terminators with the Armigers, killing one. The warden shot and fought the Grey Hunters, wiping them out. Castellan shot down the flier, finally, and still failing to remove the backline objective holders. Curse you, random shots!

T4
Wolf Guards caused the Warden to kiss the daisies. At this point it was pretty much only mob up duty for the Space Wolves as the Score was 41-19 and I conceded.

1. Consider stygies for your screens.
2. consider msu 5 man vangaurds with lighter weapons spread more around (ie, 2 arc rifle and a pistol per squad) ... you can hide some out of line of sight and rush them out next turn, to block the same terrain again.
3. consider swapping the manipulous for a daedalousus (if you want to get +1 to shooting) or for a repair specialist engenseer (2 points per repair on a knight, strategem lets you do it twice.)

OR .. give up one helverin. 170 points.
This lets you get an engenseer like that and turns your vangaurd of admech into a battalion, with 4 x 5 man vangaurd troops, and some elites. At that point, strongly consider putting in a few servitors (cause they are so very cheap) to stand around as disposable screens near the engenseer. The marines will just kill them, so why make them cost more than you have to? 84 points buys you three more screening elements, enough to delay his reinforcements another full turn.

Each turn they are delayed, you can fire your big knights again! So even if its only a 28 point unit, 4 servitors can block the outriders from a huge chunk of the board (strung between terrain) and perhaps perform an action or hold an objective for a round, if not immediately shot.

Consider dropping an helverin and turning the warden into a crusader, too. If you feel you can get enough screens in place by dividing units and moving a few points around, the crusader is much better at wearing down the marine infantry before the armies clash. While I don't think the warden is MUCH better at surviving a wall of marines in melee.


Finally, you have canticles -=- and a strategem in the admech side that lets you apply them to knights. They should be starting in cover for the +1 save, then rolling it to a shooting improvement.

Also look at the AdMech cavalry, Serberys Sulphorhounds and Raiders. Those can be very frustrating screens to try to get melee through.

I also wonder why you re so keen to charge with models that don't melee well? It seems like it is worth standing back, blocking movement, but getting the chance for one unit to overwatch them, rather than eating their overwatch and far superior CC, and giving up all that extra movement for them... I may be missing something, but you can walk up as close as you like and move block - but maybe dont charge?

Thanks for the advice!

Yeah it seems like I made a big mistake in taking max squads.
I play mainly AdMech and have a large collection - didnt get Serberys units yet due to backlog elimination before buying new models (and starting Custodes).
In the aftermath I briefly considered servitors, but in the end those are 15 pts cheaper than skitarii, do literally nothing while skitarii at least have one turn of shooting with plasma. But I see the point. With already 6 troops used, servitors are the next best source of cheap bodies I have, lacking serberys which feel kind of mandatory here.

The only charge I did was the hoplites since I knew I would get shredded in melee, so I wanted to strike first. Then the return strikes should have caused quite a few mortal wounds... Saves on a 4+ with hoplites in melee "reflect" just as Kastelan do in shooting. I hoped they could stop the unit for one turn instead of getting wiped, but that didnt happen. Didnt consider the cover which eliminated my AP and loosing 4 to overwatch was brutal as well.

I see now that I went to much theme/fluff and not enough strategy.

If I'd run that game again, I'D now go with Stygies and:
Daedalosus (more for the emergency repair/MW on Wolf Guard Terminators)
2 Enginseers babysitting the Knights

2x5 Rangers
4x5 Vanguards
(each with a smattering of special weapons)
2x5 Hoplites
2x5 Servitors

1 Helverin
1 Crusader
1 Castellan

I also think that Cold Eradication would be a better WLT for the Castellan. All those D3s and D6s random shots really hurt if you roll low, adding more consistency to EVERY weapon he has should increase the damage output drastically.

CP are really right with an additional battalion... paying for the "privilege" of having knights feels pretty darn bad.

Just had a shower tought - would Graia not be better in this case?
Stygies is good against shooting, obviously. But Space Wolves WANT to get into melee really bad, where it wont do anything.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Stygies reduces damage output in ranged only by 16,67%... worse if he has any rerolls.
Graia is a flat 16.67% dmg reduction in shooting and melee.
Usually Stygies would come ahead since vehicles are covered by that as well, but in a list with 50 skitarii bodies which are the only beneficiaries of the dogma it should come ahead by quite a bit I imagine.