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Hey all. Took a hiatus but am working on coming back to the game, have been following but not really involved*1.

I was looking at the new marine eliminators*2 and noticed they got +1BS at BS2+, meaning they can run around the board shooting like a regular marine with their rifles or else stay still and never miss. Which got me thinking, aside from the fact non-marine armies are npcs and have to lose or else gimmick up, what if they applied this to all races/factions and their specialist shooting units and tanks, etc. So like a dark eldar (sorry, drew carey) scourge could either fire his weapon without penalty and move or stay still to sniper in. Ork <cough> gitz could choose to move and shoot and normal bs, but stand still to zero in with BS4+ accuracy. No more need for special 'your tank can shoot twice if it moves half' total ballistic skill rule, you could just give them +1BS. Now the tank is better stationary but fires the same as everyone else while moving *without the need for a special rule*. I would figure out which non-marine armies need this (marines too, though but with the following exception*3) and give it to them free. +3 points per 2nd wound is fine apparently ;P Thats a topic i'm gonna start pretty soon. XD

*1 As in, i like a good conversation but i don't like arguing with idiots. You know who you are.
*2 New as in the last 10 years, not new as in what other people regard as new
*3 Give it to marine tanks for sure, but cost what the other non-tank units should pay for it

You could buff non-Marine armies to keep up with the Marines, or you could nerf the Marines, which might work better.

As to "how do we balance 40k?" I'll just say "good luck", you'll need it. I don't think 9th is fixable. You'll find a lot of ideas on oldhammer or other things to do with 40k minis if you scroll down Proposed Rules.

I don't think Eliminators should exist as they do and need a rework.

Regarding the hit values of Terminators, I've always been a big advocate that all Terminator variants (outside GK Troops) should have BS/WS2+ as they're the most skilled in their factions and would have sensors to help them hit stuff at range. Sternguard could have BS2+ and Vanguard WS2+. Just stuff I've been playing with.

AnomanderRake wrote:You could buff non-Marine armies to keep up with the Marines, or you could nerf the Marines, which might work better.

As to "how do we balance 40k?" I'll just say "good luck", you'll need it. I don't think 9th is fixable. You'll find a lot of ideas on oldhammer or other things to do with 40k minis if you scroll down Proposed Rules.

Dude, i spent my time hitting my head against the gw wall, trying to fanfix their crap as they constantly spew out you know what. But to me this seems like a good fix, its easy, based off statlines and doesn't require unnecessary 'bespoke'.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I don't think Eliminators should exist as they do and need a rework.

Regarding the hit values of Terminators, I've always been a big advocate that all Terminator variants (outside GK Troops) should have BS/WS2+ as they're the most skilled in their factions and would have sensors to help them hit stuff at range. Sternguard could have BS2+ and Vanguard WS2+. Just stuff I've been playing with.

Well that's a whole other arguments. The jump in marine profile. As a primary (ba/ts) player back in the day, yeah i noticed that they go from +1 attack to the basic profile to +2ws +xbs,+2-4 attacks, etc etc. No granularity whatsoever. And i loved terminators, and they finally might be viable (*1) But yeah, oh god help me (*3) why couldn't tactical (*4) terminators get a straight +1BS? Hell, give the assault version the same. The heavy weapons are now marine standard/sniper like grots with heavy weapons, and can aim if they stand still.

1* i always loved terminators, and they might finally be viable. but now that they're releasing marines with closer to real (the hips really bother me, they look like crab legs sticking out) proportions, i just can't go back. (*2)
2* or deal with the fact that gravis certainly ain't the new tactical dreadnought
*3 the heresy!!!!!!! of thinking about combining units with basically just an arbitrary loadout
*4 grimdarkcool

Regarding +1 to hit if you stand still, the main issue is probably the increase in lethality this would cause for armies that can already afford to hold still and shoot with many of their elements. Imagine if tau were considered good again an holding still gave them a 33% boost to their number of unbuffed hits.

Also, the boost in accuracy for aiming is sort of already represented by existing to-hit penalties. Your model's BS represents how well they shoot under relatively stable battlefield conditions. If you move around, your heavier, clunkier weapons take a -1 to hit. If you're really moving, your weapons designed for running and gunning will still take a penalty to hit, and anything not designed with jogging in mind won't be able to hit their targets at all. Bolter Discipline also kind of covers this concept by giving you extra shots against targets at a distance when you hold still.

Giving units a bonus on to-hit rolls for holding still would kind of be double-dipping on the concepts expressed by these existing mechanics.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Regarding +1 to hit if you stand still, the main issue is probably the increase in lethality this would cause for armies that can already afford to hold still and shoot with many of their elements. Imagine if tau were considered good again an holding still gave them a 33% boost to their number of unbuffed hits.

Also, the boost in accuracy for aiming is sort of already represented by existing to-hit penalties. Your model's BS represents how well they shoot under relatively stable battlefield conditions. If you move around, your heavier, clunkier weapons take a -1 to hit. If you're really moving, your weapons designed for running and gunning will still take a penalty to hit, and anything not designed with jogging in mind won't be able to hit their targets at all. Bolter Discipline also kind of covers this concept by giving you extra shots against targets at a distance when you hold still.

Giving units a bonus on to-hit rolls for holding still would kind of be double-dipping on the concepts expressed by these existing mechanics.

Yeah, but for this edition at least.... aren't tau one of the factions in most need of buffing? They can't play the assault game on a smaller board. Just a thought i had. We already have the double shoot, double shoot with movement penalties, why not just say +1 BS for certain 'shooty' units. Can i hear a xeno that doesn't like the idea?

edit: shootaz give +1 BS. sluggaz and choppaz, bs5+.

 Torga_DW wrote:

Yeah, but for this edition at least.... aren't tau one of the factions in most need of buffing?

They are. So bad example on my end. But my point was more that armies with lots of static shooting units would get a significant increase in lethality for basically just doing what they're already good at. If a given army can be annoying by castling up and shooting without this proposed rule, then they'd be extra annoying with it.

We already have the double shoot, double shoot with movement penalties, why not just say +1 BS for certain 'shooty' units.

For certain shooty units? Sure. That could work. You'd be able to price the benefit reasonably for a given unit. I'm just worried about the implications of making it a universal rule.

Can i hear a xeno that doesn't like the idea?

Oddly enough, my various flavours of aeldari. In theory, my points costs reflect a relatively high movement stat (and other movement shenanigans) compared to most other armies. Introducing a rule that makes everyone more lethal when they hold still means that I'm either not using my pricey movement stats or else I'm functionally imposing a -1 to hit on myself by moving. That was actually one of the problems with craftworld tanks in 8th ediiton. Your falcon and prism were paying for high movement stats, but actually moving meant you were giving up offense.

Plus, this would mean that every other xenos pointing a gun at me would suddenly be that much better at killing me. ;D

Also, you'd have the inverse of the to-hit modifier issue that you ran into in 8th edition. That is, it doesn't impact all armies evenly. An ork unit that normally hits on a 5+ would suddenly be hitting 50% more often (before factoring in DDD!), but necrons (BS 3+) would only be hitting 25% more often.

Also also, some armies (Tau and eldar come to mind) are feeling a lot less mobile than the brochure advertised, so I'd rather not see them incentivized to move even less. That's one of the annoying things about the current tau rules for Kauyon and their character auras.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:

Yeah, but for this edition at least.... aren't tau one of the factions in most need of buffing?

They are. So bad example on my end. But my point was more that armies with lots of static shooting units would get a significant increase in lethality for basically just doing what they're already good at. If a given army can be annoying by castling up and shooting without this proposed rule, then they'd be extra annoying with it.

Yeah, as a blanket rule its probably a bad idea. But most armies would have certain units who could benefit from it, i keep thinking dark eldar scourges as my goto example.

Wyldhunt wrote:

We already have the double shoot, double shoot with movement penalties, why not just say +1 BS for certain 'shooty' units.

For certain shooty units? Sure. That could work. You'd be able to price the benefit reasonably for a given unit. I'm just worried about the implications of making it a universal rule.

Yeah, you're right, not every unit with a heavy should get it.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Can i hear a xeno that doesn't like the idea?

Oddly enough, my various flavours of aeldari. In theory, my points costs reflect a relatively high movement stat (and other movement shenanigans) compared to most other armies. Introducing a rule that makes everyone more lethal when they hold still means that I'm either not using my pricey movement stats or else I'm functionally imposing a -1 to hit on myself by moving. That was actually one of the problems with craftworld tanks in 8th ediiton. Your falcon and prism were paying for high movement stats, but actually moving meant you were giving up offense.

Shouldn't that be the trade off in having a gun that is more accurate when stationary but fires like normal moving? And then you're not subject to further modifiers since you can only go +/-1. Offense won't be reduced by moving, you just won't receive bonus offense if you stand still.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Plus, this would mean that every other xenos pointing a gun at me would suddenly be that much better at killing me. ;D

Also, you'd have the inverse of the to-hit modifier issue that you ran into in 8th edition. That is, it doesn't impact all armies evenly. An ork unit that normally hits on a 5+ would suddenly be hitting 50% more often (before factoring in DDD!), but necrons (BS 3+) would only be hitting 25% more often.

Also also, some armies (Tau and eldar come to mind) are feeling a lot less mobile than the brochure advertised, so I'd rather not see them incentivized to move even less. That's one of the annoying things about the current tau rules for Kauyon and their character auras.

When i saw that my eliminators could move and shoot heavy weapons with no effective penalty, i thought about moving them more, not less. I guess it depends what your base bs is as to how attractive it seems to move and shoot.

 Torga_DW wrote:

Yeah, as a blanket rule its probably a bad idea. But most armies would have certain units who could benefit from it, i keep thinking dark eldar scourges as my goto example.

Fair enough then. I'd be fine with giving such a rule to a small number of appropriate units.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Can i hear a xeno that doesn't like the idea?

Oddly enough, my various flavours of aeldari. In theory, my points costs reflect a relatively high movement stat (and other movement shenanigans) compared to most other armies. Introducing a rule that makes everyone more lethal when they hold still means that I'm either not using my pricey movement stats or else I'm functionally imposing a -1 to hit on myself by moving. That was actually one of the problems with craftworld tanks in 8th ediiton. Your falcon and prism were paying for high movement stats, but actually moving meant you were giving up offense.

Shouldn't that be the trade off in having a gun that is more accurate when stationary but fires like normal moving? And then you're not subject to further modifiers since you can only go +/-1. Offense won't be reduced by moving, you just won't receive bonus offense if you stand still.

Maximizing your offense means landing as many hits as you can. If I could hit on a 2+ by holding still or a 3+ if I move, then moving means I'm generally giving up some of my lethality. Firing "like normal" is kind of irrelevant. If I'm paying points to have a higher movement stat and then being forced to give up some of my lethality to use that movement stat, then I'm kind of damned if I do and damned if I don't. That was a big issue for eldar tanks last edition; regardless of what their base BS might be, they were hitting less often when they used their mobility.

Similarly, tau are (or at least used to be) advertised as a highly mobile, shooty army with units that could move-shoot-move all over the place. The 8th edition codex gave them a bunch of offensive buffs that require units huddle around auras and hold still. And because offense is usually more useful than mobility, tau became a "castle" army that rarely utilizes what remains of its mobility advantages.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Plus, this would mean that every other xenos pointing a gun at me would suddenly be that much better at killing me. ;D

Also, you'd have the inverse of the to-hit modifier issue that you ran into in 8th edition. That is, it doesn't impact all armies evenly. An ork unit that normally hits on a 5+ would suddenly be hitting 50% more often (before factoring in DDD!), but necrons (BS 3+) would only be hitting 25% more often.

Also also, some armies (Tau and eldar come to mind) are feeling a lot less mobile than the brochure advertised, so I'd rather not see them incentivized to move even less. That's one of the annoying things about the current tau rules for Kauyon and their character auras.

When i saw that my eliminators could move and shoot heavy weapons with no effective penalty, i thought about moving them more, not less. I guess it depends what your base bs is as to how attractive it seems to move and shoot.

I'm not sure I see what you're trying to say here. Giving +1 hit when stationary isn't the same as giving -1 to hit when moving. +1 to hit improves your ability to hit things beyond what it normally would be.

God help me if i got the quotes wrong, and apologies in advance. This is starting to get some inception level of quoting here, trying to clean it up a bit.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:

Yeah, as a blanket rule its probably a bad idea. But most armies would have certain units who could benefit from it, i keep thinking dark eldar scourges as my goto example.

Fair enough then. I'd be fine with giving such a rule to a small number of appropriate units.

Cool.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Maximizing your offense means landing as many hits as you can. If I could hit on a 2+ by holding still or a 3+ if I move, then moving means I'm generally giving up some of my lethality. Firing "like normal" is kind of irrelevant. If I'm paying points to have a higher movement stat and then being forced to give up some of my lethality to use that movement stat, then I'm kind of damned if I do and damned if I don't. That was a big issue for eldar tanks last edition; regardless of what their base BS might be, they were hitting less often when they used their mobility.

Similarly, tau are (or at least used to be) advertised as a highly mobile, shooty army with units that could move-shoot-move all over the place. The 8th edition codex gave them a bunch of offensive buffs that require units huddle around auras and hold still. And because offense is usually more useful than mobility, tau became a "castle" army that rarely utilizes what remains of its mobility advantages.

I do agree, but movement isn't as quantifiable as straight dps and yet in an objectives game just as important. Let me put is this way, as a non-marine player, would you rather get a special rule for the lets say relevant units (like eldar tanks etc) that says: ignores the -1 movement penalty, or +1 bs so yes you're more accurate stationary, but when you do move you get both the -1 movement penalty not mattering so you're firing the same way you were with the special rule, only now you're immune to further bs modifiers. And i don't say this as hypothetical, thats what primaris eliminators now have, on top of sacrificing firepower to move further. The turret-strike cash-grabbior is also bs 2+ i think. I think it could be useful in other armies.

As for incentivizing mobility, well first you have to make tanks worth taking (for most people this includes), which is a whole thread in itself. But yeah, i have ideas how to fix tau too (which is the same wall i've been beating my head against since i first started playing 40k): Granularity. I'll say it again. Marine heroes went from +1a,+1ld to like a handful of characters (basic) being bs6/7, 3-5 attacks, etc. No sense of progression. Tau basic suits should be BS3+. They were always touted back in the day as the tau equivalent of marine power armour. All they can do is shoot. Let them be 'not guard levels' bad at it. Give them something to show they're operating gw gundam mechs.

Same with the other battle suits. Oh and bring back jsj, these are the original hover mecha, before inceptors (? sp?) did the same thing only better. They're not fast, but they're constantly moving and hard to pin down. Again with the eliminators, the instigator carbine (off the top of my head) allows for a similar mechanic already. That's the thing, i'm not making this stuff up i'm just applying the concepts from marines to tau, which is strange since i was there when tau invented this stuff.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Plus, this would mean that every other xenos pointing a gun at me would suddenly be that much better at killing me. ;D

Also, you'd have the inverse of the to-hit modifier issue that you ran into in 8th edition. That is, it doesn't impact all armies evenly. An ork unit that normally hits on a 5+ would suddenly be hitting 50% more often (before factoring in DDD!), but necrons (BS 3+) would only be hitting 25% more often.

Also also, some armies (Tau and eldar come to mind) are feeling a lot less mobile than the brochure advertised, so I'd rather not see them incentivized to move even less. That's one of the annoying things about the current tau rules for Kauyon and their character auras.

I understand what you're saying, but with the limited granularity of a d6 system (and the whole -1/+1 total modifier system), there's only so many routes you can take. Also, while you're right you can compare the effectiveness of the change per units (marines already got theirs) in a percentage, keep in mind a d6 result will always be about 16.5% (very roughly) per outcome, so thats the number i look at. Here's the thing, tau are having problems from what i see because yes they're castling, but they can't compete at cqc. Making certain units stronger means they can either go for the table, or they can hopefully kill enough stuff that they can advance into the storm and try to hold an objective.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I'm not sure I see what you're trying to say here. Giving +1 hit when stationary isn't the same as giving -1 to hit when moving. +1 to hit improves your ability to hit things beyond what it normally would be.

Yes, but as stated above at some point you do have to move. Its not +1 to hit while stationary, its +1 BS to the base profile, which gives the same effect. Replacing a special rule that ignores movement penalties for shooting but allows further penalties if they're in blocking cover, or a flyer, or something like that. Correct me if i'm wrong, but it seems you're just looking at the "it gets +1 effectively if it stands still" so i'll always stand still. But like you said, you're already paying for that ability to move only now your tank is overall better. Move into position -> stand still and shoot -> relocate seems like a viable tactic to me. All without special rules, although you're right i would consider just exactly who would get it.