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Since the Emperor was created by thousands of psykers committing suicide and then reincarnating into one intensely poeerful being, and assuming the Imperium found out about this, what would happen if they tried this again?

So basically gathering volunteer psykers by the thpusands who at the same time commit suicide and then them going through the Warp as one reincarnating into Emperor 2.0.

And given the immense human population of the galaxy as opposed to the stone age Earth, they would easily have more than enough psykers to create a legion of Emperor level beings.

From the original Realms Of Chaos background, the ancient shaman psykers decided to create the Emperor because they were finding the warp growing more turbulent and it getting harder and harder to reincarnate, and they predicted that soon they would not have been able to reincarnate successfully at all. This occurred before the full awakening of Khorne, Tzeentch, or Nurgle.

So now I think any attempt to create an Emperor-like being would meet with active opposition by the Chaos gods and other predatory entities in the warp, so psyker souls might not be able to join up successfully before being nommed.

The way the ancient shaman psykers used the warp also seems to be a bit different from how "modern" human psykers use the warp. The ancient shamans were described as being able to harness the warp in its harmonious pre-turbulent form, and that is why entities related to them like the Sensei, and the Star Child, are undetectable by the Chaos gods and by normal psychic means. On the scale of psyker signature profile, with pariahs being like a -10 and alpha level psykers +10, the ancient shamans would seem to have scored a perfect 0 as in perfectly neutral and therefore blending in with the warp. Modern psykers seem to have higher signatures and shine brightly in the warp. Whether that difference is something fundamental to their nature or whether it is a teachable way of how to be invisible is not said, but there certainly isn't anyone going around teaching even if it were a teachable method.

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Since the Emperor was created by thousands of psykers committing suicide and then reincarnating into one intensely poeerful being, and assuming the Imperium found out about this, what would happen if they tried this again?

So basically gathering volunteer psykers by the thpusands who at the same time commit suicide and then them going through the Warp as one reincarnating into Emperor 2.0.

And given the immense human population of the galaxy as opposed to the stone age Earth, they would easily have more than enough psykers to create a legion of Emperor level beings.

Pretty sure one faction of the Inquisition was working on this at one point.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Since the Emperor was created by thousands of psykers committing suicide and then reincarnating into one intensely poeerful being, and assuming the Imperium found out about this, what would happen if they tried this again?

So basically gathering volunteer psykers by the thpusands who at the same time commit suicide and then them going through the Warp as one reincarnating into Emperor 2.0.

And given the immense human population of the galaxy as opposed to the stone age Earth, they would easily have more than enough psykers to create a legion of Emperor level beings.

Pretty sure one faction of the Inquisition was working on this at one point.

Not quite. The Thorian faction want to find or create a new vessel capable of holding the Emperor's soul so that the Emperor can be walk incarnate again. They don't want to create a new Emperor.

Iracundus wrote:
From the original Realms Of Chaos background, the ancient shaman psykers decided to create the Emperor because they were finding the warp growing more turbulent and it getting harder and harder to reincarnate, and they predicted that soon they would not have been able to reincarnate successfully at all. This occurred before the full awakening of Khorne, Tzeentch, or Nurgle.

So now I think any attempt to create an Emperor-like being would meet with active opposition by the Chaos gods and other predatory entities in the warp, so psyker souls might not be able to join up successfully before being nommed.

The way the ancient shaman psykers used the warp also seems to be a bit different from how "modern" human psykers use the warp. The ancient shamans were described as being able to harness the warp in its harmonious pre-turbulent form, and that is why entities related to them like the Sensei, and the Star Child, are undetectable by the Chaos gods and by normal psychic means. On the scale of psyker signature profile, with pariahs being like a -10 and alpha level psykers +10, the ancient shamans would seem to have scored a perfect 0 as in perfectly neutral and therefore blending in with the warp. Modern psykers seem to have higher signatures and shine brightly in the warp. Whether that difference is something fundamental to their nature or whether it is a teachable way of how to be invisible is not said, but there certainly isn't anyone going around teaching even if it were a teachable method.

More recent lore suggests that Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle were fully awake long before the dawn of mankind - Eisenhorn Hereticus makes reference to the existence of 3 major warp powers long before even the Eldar were around:
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gh%C3%BCl
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Yssarile

This suggests that the older lore regarding the harmonious warp at the time of time of the Shamans might not be canon any longer, or perhaps Earth was in an area of less turbulance in the warp at that time? Is the creation of the Emperoro by the Shamans re-incarnating refereced in anything more recent? I don't think it has been explicitly ret-conned, but AFAIK it isn't mentioned in anything from the mid-90s or later.

I also happen to personally believe that the shamans were a step above what we know as psykers in the current 40k timeline. They weren't just alphas-plus psykers with insane mastery, they were a step even above that, All of them being Magnus/Malcador level of power each.

Trouble here is as ever unreliable narrators of the 40K background.

Nobody knows the Truth of any matter. They only have their version of it.

Within The Imperium, you’ve the major, likely insurmountable issue of a state religion which is also a significant part of the state. In turn, that means you’ve a Vested Interest ready, willing and able to suppress whatever they want.

Consider Guilliman. He’s likely the only Loyalist left who knows for certain The Emperor never wanted to be worshipped. Bjorn is too many steps removed in the pecking order to be a truly reliable narrator.

Even then, Guilliman only knows as much as The Emperor ever wanted him to. So his view is again rendered down to (an admittedly quite well informed) opinion.

The Ecclesiarch only knows what’s written down, including volumes forbidden to anyone else. They may well be entirely ignorant that they’re following a book first committed to paper by Lorgar.

Even if we treat the Realm of Chaos lore as entirely true (it not being related through the lens of a character within the setting), it seems unlikely another Emperor like being could be created in the same way.

First, the Shamen in question aren’t well detailed. We know they could resurrect, but not what that resurrection looked like. Was it the same mind, with the same priorities? Or an ultimately different being with a solid knowledge of their past lives and all that incarnation had learned?

How many did they number? It can’t have been a high number, due to human population density at that point in history. Were they all of roughly equal power/potential?

When they pulled their trick, did they instantly hit the zenith of The Emperor’s powers? Or was that the result of The Emperor scoffing the souls of emergent psykers across the millennia, adding their potential to his own, essentially a constant ongoing version of the same ritual?

I ask because that’s a salient question here, as it directly related to the number of souls that would need to be merged.

And was the merging a mutual thing? Or did one very clever bugger have a way to override the gestalt consciousness?

If not? Well, how long did it take for the personalities to act in relative unison? And how do you go about that?

Did it take willing participants? If not, what happens if in your Cake Mix, you’ve a bunch of powerful psychic souls who weren’t consulted? What influence might they have on the resultant being?

Aash wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
From the original Realms Of Chaos background, the ancient shaman psykers decided to create the Emperor because they were finding the warp growing more turbulent and it getting harder and harder to reincarnate, and they predicted that soon they would not have been able to reincarnate successfully at all. This occurred before the full awakening of Khorne, Tzeentch, or Nurgle.

So now I think any attempt to create an Emperor-like being would meet with active opposition by the Chaos gods and other predatory entities in the warp, so psyker souls might not be able to join up successfully before being nommed.

The way the ancient shaman psykers used the warp also seems to be a bit different from how "modern" human psykers use the warp. The ancient shamans were described as being able to harness the warp in its harmonious pre-turbulent form, and that is why entities related to them like the Sensei, and the Star Child, are undetectable by the Chaos gods and by normal psychic means. On the scale of psyker signature profile, with pariahs being like a -10 and alpha level psykers +10, the ancient shamans would seem to have scored a perfect 0 as in perfectly neutral and therefore blending in with the warp. Modern psykers seem to have higher signatures and shine brightly in the warp. Whether that difference is something fundamental to their nature or whether it is a teachable way of how to be invisible is not said, but there certainly isn't anyone going around teaching even if it were a teachable method.

More recent lore suggests that Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle were fully awake long before the dawn of mankind - Eisenhorn Hereticus makes reference to the existence of 3 major warp powers long before even the Eldar were around:
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gh%C3%BCl
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Yssarile

This suggests that the older lore regarding the harmonious warp at the time of time of the Shamans might not be canon any longer, or perhaps Earth was in an area of less turbulance in the warp at that time? Is the creation of the Emperoro by the Shamans re-incarnating refereced in anything more recent? I don't think it has been explicitly ret-conned, but AFAIK it isn't mentioned in anything from the mid-90s or later.

They can both be true if you consider khorne, nurgle and tzeentch to simply be the human face of those primordial emotion storms.

If you start from the premise that Rage, Hope and Despair are emotions that all sentient/sapient beings generate, regardless of species, then you understand that the chaos gods are universal and forever. But they aren't exclusively human.

If you then go with the premise that those emotions are universal but all flavoured differently, you can see the infinite potential of chaos. So Khaine is the eldar representation of rage, tinted with that race's specific perspective on it.

So khorne is an infinity of rage from many different sources. As one race's presence in the warp gets stronger, their emotional influence over the chaos gods gets correspondingly larger. So that eventually you find the warp storm of Rage begins to present more like one than the others.

Thus, Rage Hope and Despair have been around forever, but how they reacted with the galaxy and appeared to mortals has continued to change as different races come to ascendency and die out.

The warpstorm of desire, which the eldar effectively hijacked suddenly, may never have been as strong as the three base emotions. But the unique nature of the eldar meant that they could channel far more power into that minor storm, creating something as powerful as the other 3. And now you have a feedback loop where slannesh's existence corrupts and influences other races to follow it, which generates a self sustaining cycle. Eventually Slannesh will be taken over by the presence of humanity, and the eldar influence may take a back seat.

 Hellebore wrote:

Aash wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
From the original Realms Of Chaos background, the ancient shaman psykers decided to create the Emperor because they were finding the warp growing more turbulent and it getting harder and harder to reincarnate, and they predicted that soon they would not have been able to reincarnate successfully at all. This occurred before the full awakening of Khorne, Tzeentch, or Nurgle.

So now I think any attempt to create an Emperor-like being would meet with active opposition by the Chaos gods and other predatory entities in the warp, so psyker souls might not be able to join up successfully before being nommed.

The way the ancient shaman psykers used the warp also seems to be a bit different from how "modern" human psykers use the warp. The ancient shamans were described as being able to harness the warp in its harmonious pre-turbulent form, and that is why entities related to them like the Sensei, and the Star Child, are undetectable by the Chaos gods and by normal psychic means. On the scale of psyker signature profile, with pariahs being like a -10 and alpha level psykers +10, the ancient shamans would seem to have scored a perfect 0 as in perfectly neutral and therefore blending in with the warp. Modern psykers seem to have higher signatures and shine brightly in the warp. Whether that difference is something fundamental to their nature or whether it is a teachable way of how to be invisible is not said, but there certainly isn't anyone going around teaching even if it were a teachable method.

More recent lore suggests that Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle were fully awake long before the dawn of mankind - Eisenhorn Hereticus makes reference to the existence of 3 major warp powers long before even the Eldar were around:
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gh%C3%BCl
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Yssarile

This suggests that the older lore regarding the harmonious warp at the time of time of the Shamans might not be canon any longer, or perhaps Earth was in an area of less turbulance in the warp at that time? Is the creation of the Emperoro by the Shamans re-incarnating refereced in anything more recent? I don't think it has been explicitly ret-conned, but AFAIK it isn't mentioned in anything from the mid-90s or later.

They can both be true if you consider khorne, nurgle and tzeentch to simply be the human face of those primordial emotion storms.

If you start from the premise that Rage, Hope and Despair are emotions that all sentient/sapient beings generate, regardless of species, then you understand that the chaos gods are universal and forever. But they aren't exclusively human.

If you then go with the premise that those emotions are universal but all flavoured differently, you can see the infinite potential of chaos. So Khaine is the eldar representation of rage, tinted with that race's specific perspective on it.

So khorne is an infinity of rage from many different sources. As one race's presence in the warp gets stronger, their emotional influence over the chaos gods gets correspondingly larger. So that eventually you find the warp storm of Rage begins to present more like one than the others.

Thus, Rage Hope and Despair have been around forever, but how they reacted with the galaxy and appeared to mortals has continued to change as different races come to ascendency and die out.

The warpstorm of desire, which the eldar effectively hijacked suddenly, may never have been as strong as the three base emotions. But the unique nature of the eldar meant that they could channel far more power into that minor storm, creating something as powerful as the other 3. And now you have a feedback loop where slannesh's existence corrupts and influences other races to follow it, which generates a self sustaining cycle. Eventually Slannesh will be taken over by the presence of humanity, and the eldar influence may take a back seat.

I can see that premise working.

What confuses me is the idea that in the distant past there were only 3 major chaos powers. I'm sure I remember reading that because the warp doesn't follow the natural laws of cause and effect and time that although Slaanesh was created by the fall of the Eldar, it was also always there both in the past and in the present. the metaphysics of the warp get very confusing.

There is some conflict and contradiction in the lore (shock horror...) but it is suggested that Slaanesh wasn't created by the Eldar, Slaanesh was already there, the Eldar 'birthed' Slaanesh in the vain of allowing it to become a major power, or sentient or well... Whatever with the warp, but it didn't create it in totality, it was already present in some respect.

In that instance i simply go with the warp storm of desire being what is referred to, and slannesh being the Eldar portion of it.


So while slannesh has always existed, it hasnt always been slannesh

We’re those ancient shaman really human psykers? They could have been ancient ones that came to earth on thier own mission to create a being that would help them fight the necrontyr. The old ones were the real masters of the warp