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A bit of background: I'm considering getting into 40K, but I'm not 100% sold on 9th Edition (I've been stronlgy considering starting at 5th). I don't know anything about 40K, so you have to talk to me like I'm a total dummy in that regard.

In my local Warhammer store this morning and had a look around. The enormous space marine models confirmed that I definitely don't like "miniatures" in that scale. However I love the Space Marine lore. I also noted the Astra Militarum infantry looked much nicer scale-wise: still a bit over-sized for my liking but nothing to complain about, and great sculpts too.

A conundrum: I love the space marine lore, but I much prefer the militarum models.

... maybe I can form an Astra-Militarum army with one unit (two I guess technically, one leader and one group of troops) of Space Marines as backups? That way I get to have my cake and eat it too ... and wtf, the Space Marines are 8-foot tall super-humans who are all built like The Rock. I can live with that as a lazy excuse for the scale creep in the minatures as long as it's not my entire army.

Here's a few questions:

1. Firstly, is this even possible? (Astra-Militarum army with one unit of space marines?) I believe it is in 9th under the "Battle Forged" rules, right? Is it possible in 9th for Matched Play or any other style of play? Is it possible in 5th? (sorry I did read the rules but I found it all a bit confusing).


2. Very importantly: with an eye to playing 9th Edition, would it be unwise to buy and put the effort into painting Astra-Militarm units when the 9th Edition codex may come out and make them obsolete?


3. I quite liked the, "Militarum Tempestus Scions Command Squad", however I understand there were not in 5th Edition. Could they be played as something else in 5th? Would it be dumb to assume they will be in 9th and invest in them?


Thanks!


.

1) I've yet to obtain 9th ed core book, but in open play it shouldn't matter if all units share keyword (in this case Imperium).

2) I don't think basic squads will be totally unplayble while tank commander/russes might be hit with nerfhammer. I'm pretty bad at predicting stuff though.

3) Tempestus has lot of potential as alternative models. More elite looking command squad for your cadians... Or suitable agents (cultists) for your Alpha Legion csm.

1) IIRC in 5th the only way to get space marines into your Imperial Guard(=Astra Militarum) army would be by adding Daemon Hunters(= GK) to it. Allies weren't really a thing outside of a few special rules, and primaris didn't exist.

Matched play of 9th allows you to have multiple detachments of different codices as long as they share a keyword, so having one detachment of guard and one of space marines is possible as long as you play at least 1000 points (500 is limited to single patrol).
As you have already found out, the minimum amount for a detachment is one HQ and 1 troops, but there are also detachments which allow you to bring 3 fast attack or heavy support units if you just want tanks.
There is a downside to allying in form of CP costs, but it's possible in general.
Other game modes might be less restrictive, but usually it's a good idea to stick to one codex per detachment to pick up stratagems and detachment abilities.

2) It's unlikely that they will make units obsolete if they still sell models and stick to the options that come with the box. That said, the current codices are heavily shaking up how their armies work (in a good way), so you might want to wait until the new codex is released before heavily investing, and stick to units that you are going to need no matter what (like infantry squads or LRBT) until then.

3) The 5th edition equivalent was the storm troopers unit, and you could probably use them as veterans. They are fairly new models, so they are unlikely to disappear. The army is fairly limited though, so check if that's really what you want to play.

You can with auxiliary detachment but you pay 2CP(out of initial 12 in 2k game) and marines lose quite a lot of their abilities by souping. Quite possibly IG will lose quite a lot of THEIR abilities when new codex come. GW started giving mono bonuses in codexes the moment core rules punish souping rather than when core rules didn't. Trust them to do it in reverse order

PieInTheSky wrote:

1. Firstly, is this even possible? (Astra-Militarum army with one unit of space marines?) I believe it is in 9th under the "Battle Forged" rules, right? Is it possible in 9th for Matched Play or any other style of play? Is it possible in 5th? (sorry I did read the rules but I found it all a bit confusing).


2. Very importantly: with an eye to playing 9th Edition, would it be unwise to buy and put the effort into painting Astra-Militarm units when the 9th Edition codex may come out and make them obsolete?


3. I quite liked the, "Militarum Tempestus Scions Command Squad", however I understand there were not in 5th Edition. Could they be played as something else in 5th? Would it be dumb to assume they will be in 9th and invest in them?


Thanks!

1) What I tend to do when I want minimal allied space marines is rather than just one unit, I run a patrol detachment (which is minimum 1 troop, 1 HQ) and I bring a Captain or Lieutenant along with a single squad of Deathwatch Veterans, and I put them in the drop pod. The reason why Deathwatch is because they're actually extremely fun in the skirmish game mode Kill Team, so your investment of one box of dudes (especially if you magnetize them) can give you a very fun little extra way to play the game.

Also the DW Vet box comes with tons of power swords and blingy bits, and it's easy to make a Captain out of it.

2) I mean you're gonna need guardsmen, and AM have plenty of bits that are freely swappable if you don't glue them. If I remember rightly their special weapons you can just switch between Heavy Bolter/Lascannon/Autocannon freely without gluing. And you'll need lasgun guys. The 9th ed codex isn't going ot get rid of lasgun guys.

3) Scions are Stormtroopers in 5th edition. I don't remember if they got their own command squad, but you could also just run it as a command squad I guess, it's equipped with the same gear - flag, medic, special weapon guys.

Basically GW tried to sue someone a while back selling knockoffs on the internet and got told that, apparently, some fella named Mickey Mouse has the best claim on IP for space soldiers called "Stormtroopers" and someone named Jimbob Ronaldinho Rolkien Tolkien has the best claim on "Eldar" so they had to do some creative copyrighting. They've tried the "use fake latin to create a name that means the same thing" with Astra Militarium and Militarium Tempastaronis and people hated that, so then they tried "Add extra letters that you don't have to pronounce" with Aeldari and people hated that too.

tneva82 wrote:
You can with auxiliary detachment but you pay 2CP(out of initial 12 in 2k game) and marines lose quite a lot of their abilities by souping. Quite possibly IG will lose quite a lot of THEIR abilities when new codex come. GW started giving mono bonuses in codexes the moment core rules punish souping rather than when core rules didn't. Trust them to do it in reverse order

Morrslieb wrote:

2) I don't think basic squads will be totally unplayble while tank commander/russes might be hit with nerfhammer. I'm pretty bad at predicting stuff though.

I don't care about them being "weak" as long as they're still part of the game. As long as the miniatures are still usable in the game and I don't waste my money buying them and time painting them. That is what I am afraid of.

It would also annoy me if they released 9th-edition Astra-Militarum and they were all jumbo-scale on 32mm bases with commanders mounted on cathedrals of plastic and 40mm bases because, y'know, apparently the community has lost it's creative ability to make our own decorative bases.

the_scotsman wrote:

Basically GW tried to sue someone a while back selling knockoffs on the internet and got told that, apparently, some fella named Mickey Mouse has the best claim on IP for space soldiers called "Stormtroopers" and someone named Jimbob Ronaldinho Rolkien Tolkien has the best claim on "Eldar" so they had to do some creative copyrighting. They've tried the "use fake latin to create a name that means the same thing" with Astra Militarium and Militarium Tempastaronis and people hated that, so then they tried "Add extra letters that you don't have to pronounce" with Aeldari and people hated that too.

I love the latin names!

FWIW, GW have an absolute nerve suing people for IP. Virtually everything they do is a knock-off of something else, either real-life history or fantasy (Robotech, Tolkein, whatever). Don't get me wrong, they do it really well ... the lore is fantastic. But let's keep it real.





.

Also for the record, Imperial guard have been occasionally referred to as Astra Militarum since at leat 3rd edition; they just start using it be default after the lawsuit.

Space Marines have also been Adeptus Astartes since Rogue Trader.

The names aren't new, but their default usage is.

I am less certain that this is true for Aeldari, however, and I'm almost positive it is not true for Drukhari.

Oh yeah, and in 40k, they don't call it Latin- they call it High Gothic.

So out of curiosity, if you know nothing about the game, what leads you consider starting with 5th edition?
An edition 10+ years out of print. An edition where you'll definitely have trouble finding opponents/games.

Concerning your issues of scale & scale creep of SM; This only applies to the Primaris stuff. Non-primaris Marines are the same models they were in 5th. Just now days they come with 32mm bases.
But if you want you could just put them on 25mm & nobody would ever know if you'd bought them today or yesteryear.

PieInTheSky wrote:
...3. I quite liked the, "Militarum Tempestus Scions Command Squad", however I understand there were not in 5th Edition. Could they be played as something else in 5th? Would it be dumb to assume they will be in 9th and invest in them?...

The MT squad represents Imperial Guardsmen in carapace armour with hot-shot lasguns (called "hellguns" before 5th). Pre-8th carapace armour was an option for Veterans and Command Squads (who used standard lasguns instead of hellguns, but that's an easy proxy) as well as Stormtroopers (now called "Militarum Tempestus Scions squads"). In the 3e book you could take the Grenadiers Doctrine to take Stormtroopers in Troops, in the 5e and 6e books you could take Veterans in carapace armour in Troops, and in 6e/7e the dedicated MT books with Stormtroopers in Troops and Stormtrooper command squads popped up. In 8e/9e Tempestus Scions are Troops and have their own Command Squads rather than taking normal Command Squads and sticking them in carapace armour.

Short version: Whatever version of the game you play you should be able to use "Tempestus Scions" minis as something, they're an enduring concept that transcends editions and eras (carapace + more powerful lasguns characterizes Solar Auxilia for 30k, and Grenadier Squads for 30k Militia and Cults). They're unlikely to disappear anytime soon.

As to MT models that don't transcend editions so easily the Taurox and the hot-shot volley gun were new in 6th, so be aware you may not be able to use those as easily if you're trying to play Oldhammer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PieInTheSky wrote:
...1. Firstly, is this even possible? (Astra-Militarum army with one unit of space marines?) I believe it is in 9th under the "Battle Forged" rules, right? Is it possible in 9th for Matched Play or any other style of play? Is it possible in 5th? (sorry I did read the rules but I found it all a bit confusing)...

Allies as a general concept were introduced in 6th, in 3rd-5th you were stuck with one Codex except in very rare edge cases. It is technically possible using the "Inducted Guard"/"Allied Space Marines" rules in the 3e Inquisition books, but either your SM are going to be Grey Knights or your Guard force is going to be Stormtroopers/Chimeras and have none of the rest of the Guard motor pool to draw on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PieInTheSky wrote:
...2. Very importantly: with an eye to playing 9th Edition, would it be unwise to buy and put the effort into painting Astra-Militarm units when the 9th Edition codex may come out and make them obsolete?...

Shrunken tables, king-of-the-hill scenarios, and damage creep are going to make Guard a very difficult choice whatever they do in the Codex. I'd like to think they'll go back and do something about the squishiness of the motor pool, but after the Repulsor/Impulsor saw no durability increase to compensate for the higher volume of D2 and the extra melta damage I think Guard may end up sitting 9th out.

ccs wrote:
Concerning your issues of scale & scale creep of SM; This only applies to the Primaris stuff. Non-primaris Marines are the same models they were in 5th. Just now days they come with 32mm bases.
But if you want you could just put them on 25mm & nobody would ever know if you'd bought them today or yesteryear.

People keep saying this, and I don't know why because it's demonstrably untrue. GW has jumbo-sized everything across their entire range. This is obviously not a "primaris" space marine:


And that's not even close to the worst example I could pick.

There's nothing wrong with preferring the big miniatures but I really don't get that many people seem to be intent on denying that it's happening!

ccs wrote:
So out of curiosity, if you know nothing about the game, what leads you consider starting with 5th edition?
An edition 10+ years out of print. An edition where you'll definitely have trouble finding opponents/games.

If you want the history of that decision making process:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795449.page

But I wouldn't blame you for not wanting to read through that crap!

Short version: If I play 5th I immediately remove myself from the GW release new codex/rules/re-scaled minatures every 2/3 years price-gouge. And on top of that they're apparently the best rules. 5th Edition was recommended as "the best" (see thread) on this forum, and that was backed up by other sources off dakka-dakka (not unanimously of course, but in popular opinion).

 AnomanderRake wrote:

The MT squad represents Imperial Guardsmen in carapace armour with hot-shot lasguns (called "hellguns" before 5th). Pre-8th carapace armour was an option for Veterans and Command Squads (who used standard lasguns instead of hellguns, but that's an easy proxy) as well as Stormtroopers (now called "Militarum Tempestus Scions squads"). In the 3e book you could take the Grenadiers Doctrine to take Stormtroopers in Troops, in the 5e and 6e books you could take Veterans in carapace armour in Troops, and in 6e/7e the dedicated MT books with Stormtroopers in Troops and Stormtrooper command squads popped up. In 8e/9e Tempestus Scions are Troops and have their own Command Squads rather than taking normal Command Squads and sticking them in carapace armour.

I barely understood a word of that. I know what those words mean, but not those sentences.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Short version: Whatever version of the game you play you should be able to use "Tempestus Scions" minis as something, they're an enduring concept that transcends editions and eras (carapace + more powerful lasguns characterizes Solar Auxilia for 30k, and Grenadier Squads for 30k Militia and Cults). They're unlikely to disappear anytime soon.

Now I understand!

When I said talk to me as if I'm a dummy, I wasn't joking. Thanks for taking the time, great info and thanks for giving me the "short version for dummies"!

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Shrunken tables, king-of-the-hill scenarios, and damage creep are going to make Guard a very difficult choice whatever they do in the Codex. I'd like to think they'll go back and do something about the squishiness of the motor pool, but after the Repulsor/Impulsor saw no durability increase to compensate for the higher volume of D2 and the extra melta damage I think Guard may end up sitting 9th out.

I appreciate that information, but I really don't care about how "good" they are. For me it's more about the lore and the painting. I do want them to be playable and fun but don't care if I lose or it's a relatively "weak" army.

Anyway ... I went back to my local store today and "I'm in!":

PieInTheSky wrote:

ccs wrote:
Concerning your issues of scale & scale creep of SM; This only applies to the Primaris stuff. Non-primaris Marines are the same models they were in 5th. Just now days they come with 32mm bases.
But if you want you could just put them on 25mm & nobody would ever know if you'd bought them today or yesteryear.

People keep saying this, and I don't know why because it's demonstrably untrue.

1st: I was only referring to the non-primaris Space Marine range. Other than a lot of the named characters, I assure you, those are the same models as 10+ years ago.
New box art, new instruction sheets, & now with 32mm bases. But the same models.

2nd: They're saying it because it IS true. And demonstrably so.

PieInTheSky wrote:
GW has jumbo-sized everything across their entire range. This is obviously not a "primaris" space marine:

Spoiler:

And that's not even close to the worst example I could pick.

There's nothing wrong with preferring the big miniatures but I really don't get that many people seem to be intent on denying that it's happening!

Why are you showing me a pair of Blood Bowl figures to prove a point about SM sculpts? Especially when you're the guy stating they know nothing about these games?

I'm not denying scale has increased over the years. In fact it was happening before I started playing GW games (Warhammer Fantasy 3rd ed) in the summer of '89....
As for 40k? And SM in particular? There's been several increases. Rogue Trader ---> 2e in general. 2e ---> 3e+ for the plastic Marines & especially for the Terminators. 8e+ ---> Primaris vs non-primaris.

And those Guard figures your going to be buying? That box of Scions your holding is the newest. Those sculpts are about 10 years old and scaled to fit the Guard ranges that were available back then - plastic Cadians, plastic Catachans, metal Steel Legion, metal Vostryans, resin Krieg & resin Elysians. The Vostroyans were the babies of this lot at only about 5 years old at the time (they're now out-of-print).
That's right, if you buy today, the sets of plastic Cadians, plastic Catachans, & the resin Death Guard of Krieg (see Forge world) that'll form your army haven't changed scale - let alone models - in 20 years.
* Oh, I stand corrected. Somewhere in the hazy past I seem to recall they re-did heavy weapon squads for the Catachans & this past year saw the addition of 2 Limited Edition Catachans.
And somewhere in there (6e I think) they re-cut the vehicle spues.

Have the Guard ever changed scale? Yes, a bit. Rogue Trader stuff ---> 2e metals. 2e ---> 3e plastic Cadians & Catachans vs their metal versions. It's particularly noticeable with plastic vs metal Catachans.

PieInTheSky wrote:

ccs wrote:
So out of curiosity, if you know nothing about the game, what leads you consider starting with 5th edition?
An edition 10+ years out of print. An edition where you'll definitely have trouble finding opponents/games.

Short version: If I play 5th I immediately remove myself from the GW release new codex/rules/re-scaled minatures every 2/3 years price-gouge. And on top of that they're apparently the best rules. 5th Edition was recommended as "the best" (see thread) on this forum, and that was backed up by other sources off dakka-dakka (not unanimously of course, but in popular opinion).

Cool, as long as you can find games of 5th that works. I'd still recommend getting the 9e Rule Book + current AM Codex though.

PieInTheSky wrote:
Anyway ... I went back to my local store today and "I'm in!":

Spoiler:

Well ... tentatively ... I've taken the first steps in my 9th edition AM army (with one space marine detachment) ....


link a pix online

Congratulations. Welcome to the game.

If you want to play outside the GW eco system of current stuff, go with 5th and I'd say maybe use an alliance light system. I'm sure you could work with friends for taking allies easy enough. like maybe a single squad from a chosen, makes sense faction like marines. As long as everyone is under the same rules should be all good in that regard.

If you want to be milked for heavy burn and churn stay up to date but know the pain is real.

ccs wrote:

PieInTheSky wrote:

ccs wrote:
Concerning your issues of scale & scale creep of SM; This only applies to the Primaris stuff. Non-primaris Marines are the same models they were in 5th. Just now days they come with 32mm bases.
But if you want you could just put them on 25mm & nobody would ever know if you'd bought them today or yesteryear.

People keep saying this, and I don't know why because it's demonstrably untrue.

1st: I was only referring to the non-primaris Space Marine range. Other than a lot of the named characters, I assure you, those are the same models as 10+ years ago.
New box art, new instruction sheets, & now with 32mm bases. But the same models.

2nd: They're saying it because it IS true. And demonstrably so.

I'm not sure how to respond to that. How do you explain the bloodbowl lineman then that is now ogre-sized and mounted on a 32mm base? That's not a Primaris marine. Do I need to post size-comparisons of the orc models over the years? Seriously, a modern orc would pass for a troll or something back in the day. They're not primaris marines.

Is it not reasonable to assume that is the obvious direction GW are going with their models across their whole range? 32mm scale (models) on 32mm bases?

ccs wrote:
2nd: They're saying it because it IS true. And demonstrably so.

By all means, please demonstrate it then.

ccs wrote:
Why are you showing me a pair of Blood Bowl figures to prove a point about SM sculpts? Especially when you're the guy stating they know nothing about these games?

You're not going to pretend that GW are scaling-up Blood Bowl but not Warhammer 40K, despite all the new 40K models being gigantosaurus-sized, surely? As if that's just all some coincidence. C'mon.

edit: FYI, the first game I ever played of 40K was Rogue Trader, 1st Edition. It was also the last game. Point is, while its true I know nothing about 40K, I certainly know a lot about the miniature hobby. I've been painting models from various companies, including GW (and played a tonne of blood bowl) for over 30 years! (wow ... that long? It must be if I started when I was about 10 and I'm 40 now!). I've also painted a lot of 40K models in my time. But just as display pieces, I never knew really what they were but the extreme basics ("space marines" or "orcs spelled with a K in space").

ccs wrote:
And those Guard figures your going to be buying? That box of Scions your holding is the newest. Those sculpts are about 10 years old and scaled to fit the Guard ranges that were available back then - plastic Cadians, plastic Catachans, metal Steel Legion, metal Vostryans, resin Krieg & resin Elysians. The Vostroyans were the babies of this lot at only about 5 years old at the time (they're now out-of-print).
That's right, if you buy today, the sets of plastic Cadians, plastic Catachans, & the resin Death Guard of Krieg (see Forge world) that'll form your army haven't changed scale - let alone models - in 20 years.
* Oh, I stand corrected. Somewhere in the hazy past I seem to recall they re-did heavy weapon squads for the Catachans & this past year saw the addition of 2 Limited Edition Catachans.
And somewhere in there (6e I think) they re-cut the vehicle spues.

Have the Guard ever changed scale? Yes, a bit. Rogue Trader stuff ---> 2e metals. 2e ---> 3e plastic Cadians & Catachans vs their metal versions. It's particularly noticeable with plastic vs metal Catachans.

Obviously models that haven't changed in 20 years have not magically scaled-up. That's a very flimsy rack upon which to hang your hat.

ccs wrote:
Cool, as long as you can find games of 5th that works. I'd still recommend getting the 9e Rule Book + current AM Codex though.

...

Congratulations. Welcome to the game.