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I was just listening to Luetin09's superb 40K lore videos on YouTube (GW really should pay that guy) and there's something I think he's really a bit wrong about. In the series about The Emperor of Man (and the Addendum) he talks about faith and religion and the Chaos Gods. He implies that Emperor was being dishonest by encouraging a atheistic society, because the Chaos Gods are real, and The Emperor was just trying to protect humanity from them by encouraging atheism.

I don't think that is correct.

Faith means to believe in something with no good evidence to support that belief. If there is good evidence for something, there is no need for "faith". There is no reason to have "faith" in the Chaos Gods. They're real. They're there, you can see them, they interact with the warp and the world. They send chaos demons to scour entire worlds. You don't need "faith" to believe in them.

Add to that, that the fact that they are not omniscient or all-powerful. Obviously not, if men with guns can hold them at bay. That's not very God-like. If they were, they could will whatever reality into existence that they liked.

Given these facts, are they really even "gods"? I would argue not. They're very powerful, sure. But they're not "gods". They are just very powerful and very alien warp entities.

Point is: The Emporer was not lying. Argue all you like about the virtues of religious belief, but when he said there are no gods, he wasn't being dishonest.

Eh. This is a hair splitting argument, very dependent on a modern and western, monotheistic view of religion, gods and faith. Historical (and even other modern) conceptions of faith and gods are not that... binary.

The Emperor's grand plan denied any sort of supernatural entity or effect, which is _blatantly_ a lie in the 40k setting.

Voss wrote:
Eh. This is a hair splitting argument, very dependent on a modern and western, monotheistic view of religion, gods and faith. Historical (and even other modern) conceptions of faith and gods are not that... binary.

The Emperor's grand plan denied any sort of supernatural entity or effect, which is _blatantly_ a lie in the 40k setting.

I guess it's true you could see them as Gods in the ancient sense (Zeus and Poseidon and Thor etc.) who were very flawed and not at all all-powerful.

You're right I was thinking more in the modern western monotheistic view.

The Emperor seems to have been trying to protect humanity from the chaos powers by restricting knowledge about them. You can argue whether the information he did disclose was technically a lie or not based on whatever definition you'd care to use of a god, but he definitely wasn't telling anything like "the whole truth" and as such he can 100% be accused of lying by omission.

In my humble opinion everything turns around the definition of God: I think we can say that accordingly to the W40k lore, a God is an almost omnipotent supernatural being, who can became object of worship by the not supernatural sentient beings, due to the fact he is the incarnation and/or the supreme ruler of some aspect of the life, of some force of the nature or of some part of the universe.
If we agree on this definition of God, then in my opinion the Emperor wasn't actually lying (even if he wasn't telling the truth), because he was trying to educate the humans to see the warp entities (even the Chaos Gods) like extremely powerful and dangerous predators, in order to denying them the possibility to be worshipped; in fact the Emperor knew very well that these acts of worshipping are nourishment for the Chaos God. In short i think the Emperor's reasoning was: "If a God is a superhuman being that deserve to be worshipped, then denying his right to be worshipped you deny his own divinity and in this way you deprive him of his nourishment".

The chaos “gods” do not need worship as nourishment. Just the emotions that make them up. The gods are manifestations of emotions, feel those emotions and the gods benefit. No need for worship.

The emperor clearly didn’t have a clue what he was dealing with. He knew humanity would always be tempted to the gods it’s in their nature but to think he could hide their influence and presence?? Hopeless and doomed to failure.

The emperor knew about the entities in the warp, wether you consider them gods or powerful entities is personal, but the emperor, I think, believed that people would not make the choice to worship the gods if he could turn all of humanity to atheism. He probably believes that worship directly gave the gods power. Probably, many would believe this as it seems obvious (in world like 40K). I’m not sure if the understanding that the emotions and actions of creatures, like humans, with a warp presence fuel the gods passively is understood by many in the 40K universe. I think it’s more of a narrative understanding that we have.

But certainly the emperor was lying and he knew I’d but even during the great crusade e empire was being built through violence and propaganda. It wasn’t a nice place, maybe just nicer than the year 40K.

Can we get a link to the video in question?

As for faith?

Through the lens of the Adeptus Sororitas in the Pariah Nexus? Whatever it is that they channel to perform miracles? It’s seemingly not warp granted. This is even noted by the Nexus’ own architect, causing interest and consternation, given the whole purpose of the works.

The_Grim_Angel wrote:
In my humble opinion everything turns around the definition of God: I think we can say that accordingly to the W40k lore, a God is an almost omnipotent supernatural being, who can became object of worship by the not supernatural sentient beings, due to the fact he is the incarnation and/or the supreme ruler of some aspect of the life, of some force of the nature or of some part of the universe.
If we agree on this definition of God, then in my opinion the Emperor wasn't actually lying (even if he wasn't telling the truth), because he was trying to educate the humans to see the warp entities (even the Chaos Gods) like extremely powerful and dangerous predators, in order to denying them the possibility to be worshipped; in fact the Emperor knew very well that these acts of worshipping are nourishment for the Chaos God. In short i think the Emperor's reasoning was: "If a God is a superhuman being that deserve to be worshipped, then denying his right to be worshipped you deny his own divinity and in this way you deprive him of his nourishment".

As for 40k lore; no that definition of godhood doesn't fit anything.

The Emperor's plan is already falling apart and failing in the very first HH book, as a Luna Wolf is gobbled up by a warp entity muttering through what they thought was 'vox signals,' and the possessed husk goes on a murder spree. Ignorance is no protection, and the blatant lie did no good and a lot of harm.

PieInTheSky wrote:

Faith means to believe in something with no good evidence to support that belief. If there is good evidence for something, there is no need for "faith". There is no reason to have "faith" in the Chaos Gods. They're real. They're there, you can see them, they interact with the warp and the world. They send chaos demons to scour entire worlds. You don't need "faith" to believe in them.

Add to that, that the fact that they are not omniscient or all-powerful. Obviously not, if men with guns can hold them at bay. That's not very God-like. If they were, they could will whatever reality into existence that they liked.

Are you getting confused between demons, which do physically manifest in 40k, and the Chaos gods?

There's no proof in the setting that the Chaos gods are "real" and not just either anthropomorphized warp storm activity, or an appearance of some obscure greater demon. Given the mutable nature of the warp and demon manifestations, there's also the strong evidence that demons are only warp storm manifestations, rather than actual individual entities.

 solkan wrote:

PieInTheSky wrote:

Faith means to believe in something with no good evidence to support that belief. If there is good evidence for something, there is no need for "faith". There is no reason to have "faith" in the Chaos Gods. They're real. They're there, you can see them, they interact with the warp and the world. They send chaos demons to scour entire worlds. You don't need "faith" to believe in them.

Add to that, that the fact that they are not omniscient or all-powerful. Obviously not, if men with guns can hold them at bay. That's not very God-like. If they were, they could will whatever reality into existence that they liked.

Are you getting confused between demons, which do physically manifest in 40k, and the Chaos gods?

There's no proof in the setting that the Chaos gods are "real" and not just either anthropomorphized warp storm activity, or an appearance of some obscure greater demon. Given the mutable nature of the warp and demon manifestations, there's also the strong evidence that demons are only warp storm manifestations, rather than actual individual entities.

It’s really not often I do this.....but Dude. you really need to offer citations for this

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 solkan wrote:

PieInTheSky wrote:

Faith means to believe in something with no good evidence to support that belief. If there is good evidence for something, there is no need for "faith". There is no reason to have "faith" in the Chaos Gods. They're real. They're there, you can see them, they interact with the warp and the world. They send chaos demons to scour entire worlds. You don't need "faith" to believe in them.

Add to that, that the fact that they are not omniscient or all-powerful. Obviously not, if men with guns can hold them at bay. That's not very God-like. If they were, they could will whatever reality into existence that they liked.

Are you getting confused between demons, which do physically manifest in 40k, and the Chaos gods?

There's no proof in the setting that the Chaos gods are "real" and not just either anthropomorphized warp storm activity, or an appearance of some obscure greater demon. Given the mutable nature of the warp and demon manifestations, there's also the strong evidence that demons are only warp storm manifestations, rather than actual individual entities.

It’s really not often I do this.....but Dude. you really need to offer citations for this

Its certainly how Fabius Bile treats the chaos gods (and daemons, to some extent) in his personal trilogy.
Its not terribly inconsistent with anything else. The warp reacts and takes forms in line with the expectations of the observers. Sometimes its nothing in particular, sometimes the rites bring out specific forms based on what the worshipers are trying to call. Or 'create.'

Really, the opening of the Chaos Daemon codex refers to the immaterium as an abstraction. It goes on for some length about 'ancient entities' within it, but also defines them as tides and waves of 'similar thoughts and emotions' that have gathered together in 'streams.' What could be described as the 'fickle' nature of the gods could simply be the random flow of power through the warp.

This is an area where our nigh-omniscient perspective as readers actually gets in the way. How we perceive the setting and the warp isn't anything like how the setting's inhabitants would see it. Its all quantified and exact for us, rather than unlimited, infinite mystery. It is definitely not "chaos in its truest sense, unfettered by the limits of physics and undirected by intelligent purpose" (page 6, Codex Chaos Daemons). For us, 'chaos' armies are absurdly well organized and specific and limited. Its why GW constantly tries to jam in Ran-Dumb tables, because the forces of chaos are even more orderly and consistent than most Xenos or even Imperial armies. Sacred numbers, defined roles and abilities? Bah.

Lie or a paradox?

Denying the divinity of an entity is not the same as claiming it does not exist.

AFAIK, there's nothing in the lore about the education Imperial troops received when embarking on a crusade. How would one differentiate between a Daemon and some other creature they encounter? I'm sure there were things more fantastic than Bloodthirsters in realspace.

Perhaps it was better just to say 'shoot anything that's not human' than to say 'watch out for literal Gods who stalk the Universe and want your soul.' Telling people there are these divine beings worthy of worship might not be a good way to prepare them for a war in the stars.

On the other hand, Chaos Gods are called Gods for a reason, they can give you power in exchange for worship. If that is a fact, advertising it might not be good for cultural cohesion.

Voss wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 solkan wrote:

PieInTheSky wrote:

Faith means to believe in something with no good evidence to support that belief. If there is good evidence for something, there is no need for "faith". There is no reason to have "faith" in the Chaos Gods. They're real. They're there, you can see them, they interact with the warp and the world. They send chaos demons to scour entire worlds. You don't need "faith" to believe in them.

Add to that, that the fact that they are not omniscient or all-powerful. Obviously not, if men with guns can hold them at bay. That's not very God-like. If they were, they could will whatever reality into existence that they liked.

Are you getting confused between demons, which do physically manifest in 40k, and the Chaos gods?

There's no proof in the setting that the Chaos gods are "real" and not just either anthropomorphized warp storm activity, or an appearance of some obscure greater demon. Given the mutable nature of the warp and demon manifestations, there's also the strong evidence that demons are only warp storm manifestations, rather than actual individual entities.

It’s really not often I do this.....but Dude. you really need to offer citations for this

Its certainly how Fabius Bile treats the chaos gods (and daemons, to some extent) in his personal trilogy.
Its not terribly inconsistent with anything else. The warp reacts and takes forms in line with the expectations of the observers. Sometimes its nothing in particular, sometimes the rites bring out specific forms based on what the worshipers are trying to call. Or 'create.'

Really, the opening of the Chaos Daemon codex refers to the immaterium as an abstraction. It goes on for some length about 'ancient entities' within it, but also defines them as tides and waves of 'similar thoughts and emotions' that have gathered together in 'streams.' What could be described as the 'fickle' nature of the gods could simply be the random flow of power through the warp.

This is an area where our nigh-omniscient perspective as readers actually gets in the way. How we perceive the setting and the warp isn't anything like how the setting's inhabitants would see it. Its all quantified and exact for us, rather than unlimited, infinite mystery. It is definitely not "chaos in its truest sense, unfettered by the limits of physics and undirected by intelligent purpose" (page 6, Codex Chaos Daemons). For us, 'chaos' armies are absurdly well organized and specific and limited. Its why GW constantly tries to jam in Ran-Dumb tables, because the forces of chaos are even more orderly and consistent than most Xenos or even Imperial armies. Sacred numbers, defined roles and abilities? Bah.

But this is a prequel story and Fabius is proved wrong to some extent. He dismissed demons as manifestations of the mind and didn’t believe that any primarch or CSM ever communicated with the chaos gods either directly or by proxy. By the end of the story ha has realised that his survival and the survival of the new men requires a compromise by acknowledging and working with the powers that be, abbadon, eidelon and the gods that talk to them. He accepts his survival and fate are connected to these forces but denies them as gods and worthy of worship and obedience. It is a compromise for he still seeks to forge his own future. It is also mentioned that the blight that affects Fabius is not the same one that affected the 3rd 10k years ago but a blight on his soul and his reluctance to accept such this is why he can not cure himself.

The evidence for at least the 4 powers of as seperate motivated entities is clear. It’s part of the narrative and has been written about extensively for the player, not the in universe characters. The garden of nurgle, the palace of slaneesh, the skull throne. There are just not many, if any examples of someone talking directly with the thing that is khorne, in the same way we know RG talked to the emperor

If I recall correctly the Ynnari activelly tried to go into the garden of Nurgle and tried to get Ishka out of Nurgle's prison. So there seems to be locations in the Warp that actually look like the descriptions we can read about in the Daemons Codex and people in-universe can go there, despite the codex claiming these locations being more like metaphors to what's actually happening in the Warp.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
If I recall correctly the Ynnari activelly tried to go into the garden of Nurgle and tried to get Ishka out of Nurgle's prison. So there seems to be locations in the Warp that actually look like the descriptions we can read about in the Daemons Codex and people in-universe can go there, despite the codex claiming these locations being more like metaphors to what's actually happening in the Warp.

That’s just perception of them. They don’t actually exist as such as nothing in the warp exists but the gods are powerful enough to make it appear how they choose. There is no physical anything in the warp.

Belief isn't so cut and dry as stated in the OP. Even in our version of reality, there are innumerable examples of people ascribing belief-based explanations for phenomena.

From seeing a deity in a piece of toast, to believing an animal is the manifestation of a God's current form. I don't see why the daemons being proof of a primordial, otherworldly force, would stop people subjectively (whether they're aware or not) interpreting the phenomena of Chaos as part of their specific beliefs. Either on an individual level or across cultural ones.

Isn't that aspect touched on quite frequently in the fluff? Particularly the HH series, where we get brief exposure to alien cultures that worship Chaos under various different guises and forms. And some of those don't really give the impression they understand Chaos in exactly the same way.

In Pratchett's Discworld, magically-inclined folks (i.e. mainly witches and wizards) don't believe in the gods because they damn well know they exist. The difference is that they know they exist on the basis of a magically fueled world that involves a resource called narrativium, the element of stories. But faith-based belief on the Disc still exists despite this.

Andykp wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
If I recall correctly the Ynnari activelly tried to go into the garden of Nurgle and tried to get Ishka out of Nurgle's prison. So there seems to be locations in the Warp that actually look like the descriptions we can read about in the Daemons Codex and people in-universe can go there, despite the codex claiming these locations being more like metaphors to what's actually happening in the Warp.

That’s just perception of them. They don’t actually exist as such as nothing in the warp exists but the gods are powerful enough to make it appear how they choose. There is no physical anything in the warp.

Surely it exists, but in the warp. The concept of physical existence in the warp is different to normal space but that’s because the warp is a different set of dimensions. Thing in the warp exist. They might be made up of warp energy but things in normal space are made of atoms and held together by the universal forces. Why does one exist and the other does not.

Also humans exists partly in the warp, this is part of humanities natural existence even if most humans don’t know it. That’s why being around a null makes people feel weird. Like meeting someone that doesn’t exist in 3 dimensions

mrFickle wrote:

Andykp wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
If I recall correctly the Ynnari activelly tried to go into the garden of Nurgle and tried to get Ishka out of Nurgle's prison. So there seems to be locations in the Warp that actually look like the descriptions we can read about in the Daemons Codex and people in-universe can go there, despite the codex claiming these locations being more like metaphors to what's actually happening in the Warp.

That’s just perception of them. They don’t actually exist as such as nothing in the warp exists but the gods are powerful enough to make it appear how they choose. There is no physical anything in the warp.

Surely it exists, but in the warp. The concept of physical existence in the warp is different to normal space but that’s because the warp is a different set of dimensions. Thing in the warp exist. They might be made up of warp energy but things in normal space are made of atoms and held together by the universal forces. Why does one exist and the other does not.

Also humans exists partly in the warp, this is part of humanities natural existence even if most humans don’t know it. That’s why being around a null makes people feel weird. Like meeting someone that doesn’t exist in 3 dimensions

The problem with the warp is that’s it’s so “other” that the language we have doesn’t work. Our language is all about time and space, but neither of those exist in a reality made of emotions. In a reality with out time and space how can anything exist when there is no time for it to exist in or space. This is why the vast majority of humans go insane when exposed even slightly the warp.

I mean, you are not wrong, but remember there are also actual planets in Warp, at least in the eye of terror. So, there's all the warp stuff we can't describe really, but there seem to be material things as well, namely the former Eldar worlds that have been turned into Daemon worlds. But this is probably only a tangent to the question at hand.

They are still in real space it’s just that the warp has spilled out over them. So what you get there is a glimpse into the warp with out the full experience. Still enough to drive most people mad because it’s incomprehensible to the mortal mind.

mrFickle wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 solkan wrote:

PieInTheSky wrote:

Faith means to believe in something with no good evidence to support that belief. If there is good evidence for something, there is no need for "faith". There is no reason to have "faith" in the Chaos Gods. They're real. They're there, you can see them, they interact with the warp and the world. They send chaos demons to scour entire worlds. You don't need "faith" to believe in them.

Add to that, that the fact that they are not omniscient or all-powerful. Obviously not, if men with guns can hold them at bay. That's not very God-like. If they were, they could will whatever reality into existence that they liked.

Are you getting confused between demons, which do physically manifest in 40k, and the Chaos gods?

There's no proof in the setting that the Chaos gods are "real" and not just either anthropomorphized warp storm activity, or an appearance of some obscure greater demon. Given the mutable nature of the warp and demon manifestations, there's also the strong evidence that demons are only warp storm manifestations, rather than actual individual entities.

It’s really not often I do this.....but Dude. you really need to offer citations for this

Its certainly how Fabius Bile treats the chaos gods (and daemons, to some extent) in his personal trilogy.
Its not terribly inconsistent with anything else. The warp reacts and takes forms in line with the expectations of the observers. Sometimes its nothing in particular, sometimes the rites bring out specific forms based on what the worshipers are trying to call. Or 'create.'

Really, the opening of the Chaos Daemon codex refers to the immaterium as an abstraction. It goes on for some length about 'ancient entities' within it, but also defines them as tides and waves of 'similar thoughts and emotions' that have gathered together in 'streams.' What could be described as the 'fickle' nature of the gods could simply be the random flow of power through the warp.

This is an area where our nigh-omniscient perspective as readers actually gets in the way. How we perceive the setting and the warp isn't anything like how the setting's inhabitants would see it. Its all quantified and exact for us, rather than unlimited, infinite mystery. It is definitely not "chaos in its truest sense, unfettered by the limits of physics and undirected by intelligent purpose" (page 6, Codex Chaos Daemons). For us, 'chaos' armies are absurdly well organized and specific and limited. Its why GW constantly tries to jam in Ran-Dumb tables, because the forces of chaos are even more orderly and consistent than most Xenos or even Imperial armies. Sacred numbers, defined roles and abilities? Bah.

But this is a prequel story and Fabius is proved wrong to some extent. He dismissed demons as manifestations of the mind and didn’t believe that any primarch or CSM ever communicated with the chaos gods either directly or by proxy. By the end of the story ha has realised that his survival and the survival of the new men requires a compromise by acknowledging and working with the powers that be, abbadon, eidelon and the gods that talk to them. He accepts his survival and fate are connected to these forces but denies them as gods and worthy of worship and obedience. It is a compromise for he still seeks to forge his own future. It is also mentioned that the blight that affects Fabius is not the same one that affected the 3rd 10k years ago but a blight on his soul and his reluctance to accept such this is why he can not cure himself.

The evidence for at least the 4 powers of as seperate motivated entities is clear. It’s part of the narrative and has been written about extensively for the player, not the in universe characters. The garden of nurgle, the palace of slaneesh, the skull throne. There are just not many, if any examples of someone talking directly with the thing that is khorne, in the same way we know RG talked to the emperor

Talk to sailors and you'll find all sorts of discussion about storms and the sea as living things that can be bargained and reasoned with. The problem is that the Chaos gods are real in the same manner that wind, storms, and hurricanes are real.

Everything else that you've described is just "If you spend enough time around sailors, you start thinking like a sailor."

Disclaimer: It's worth pointing out that the people who write the background material don't point out which parts of the material are canon facts, and which parts of the material are things the people in the setting believe to be true; and then proceed to publish material where not everything that is published can be true at the same time. And this goes doubly so for events that aren't happening in the setting's present but instead represent what would be passed down or historical accounts.

Because if you took a race of bored, ultra powerful psykers like the Eldar, put them in contact with a dimension of pscho-reactive material, and someone kicked off the equivalent of an viral auto-erotic asphyxiation meme, that's the sort of thing that ends up looking like the birth of Slaanesh.

Seriously, can you imagine what the just-before-the-Fall Eldar equivalents of extreme sports and the like would have gotten to? Monster fights on theme worlds, mixed together with that niggling subconscious fear that this time things might have finally gotten out of hand, and eventually it finally does. All because of a realm that doesn't do what people "want", but reacts to everything that everyone is thinking.