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Are bullgryns still too expensive? The reason I say this is because the blade guard veteran exists. Both are 35 pts

bulls are t5 and either 2+ or 4++ while blades are t4 with 2+ and 4++ so about a wash
Both are 3w models
Shock assault and avalanche of muscle are the same
They have the same number of attacks
Bulls attack at str7ap-1 2d vs blades at str 5 ap-3 2d... again about a wash as they have different targets

This is where bladeguard begins to seperate:
Most important...bladeguard are affected by chapter tactics and combat doctrines; bulls don't get the benefit of a regiment or orders
Bladeguard have pistols and grenades

So should bullgryns be cheaper or given access to regiments/orders? Should bladeguard be more expensive?

Shock Assault is better, since it triggers whether you charge or get charged.

And Blageguard should be more expensive. Bullgryn could maybe get cheaper, but I'd want to see a comprehensive look at the IG Dex.

Bladeguard are to cheap. You can't compare stuff to bladeguard veterans. Almost everything will look to expensive.

To be honest I wouldn't mind Bullgryns getting both shield effects at the same time without a point increase.

Guard needs some melee power to compete in this edition.

(Bring Rough Riders back, while we are at it)

In my opinion, having played Guard for almost 15 years, the "Ogryn" concept doesn't really fit.

In regards to keeping them the same price, IG has access to inexpensive blocker units / area holders. It is less points expensive to deliver Ogryn / Bullgryn on foot to where they need to be.

In regards to decreasing the price... man... lots to go on by comparison. First, you get one save or the other, not both. Second, no cheap tranport option if you want them mechanized. Third, abysmal leadership. fourth, At S7 you're hitting T6- on 3's. And for those, you'd want to be penetrating armour better, to plow through MEQ stats. Fifth, they don't have support, really, in the IG dex. Sixth, they are ABSOLUTELY counter-play to Guard's strength, being attrition and overwhelming firepower.

Even in the hayday of Allies, Guard were taken in token numbers to fill a CP battery. Guard *never* took one or two units of melee beatsticks to fill a missing CC role. And competitive lists have *never* taken Ogryn or Bullgryn. They are a rule of cool choice, not a power player choice. Realistically, if Bullgryn were 25 points each, and the Bone'Ead had a Powerfist type weapon option, you might see them. They would need to be *better* than an equivalent MEQ option, to see play in a Guard list, simply because they have a negative synergy with how Guard plays.

( *never* being hyperbolic. I'm sure they've been used by a competitive list at least once... but probably not again after that. )

 greatbigtree wrote:
Even in the hayday of Allies, Guard were taken in token numbers to fill a CP battery. Guard *never* took one or two units of melee beatsticks to fill a missing CC role. And competitive lists have *never* taken Ogryn or Bullgryn. They are a rule of cool choice, not a power player choice. Realistically, if Bullgryn were 25 points each, and the Bone'Ead had a Powerfist type weapon option, you might see them. They would need to be *better* than an equivalent MEQ option, to see play in a Guard list, simply because they have a negative synergy with how Guard plays.

( *never* being hyperbolic. I'm sure they've been used by a competitive list at least once... but probably not again after that. )

You might be surprised to learn that Bullgryns were not uncommon in competitive AM lists throughout 8th. They actually legitimately were a decent unit, provided you engaged in some shield shenanigans (take both types in a unit, take hits on the type more beneficial at the moment) and buffed them with psykers. And I think everybody used them with mauls, not gauntlets.

They've actually gotten significantly more attractive in 9th, as their cost has come down and melee capability has become extremely important. Put a Priest with them and they make a decent beatstick unit to contest objectives. But it's less that they now synergize with the rest of the army so much as that they provide a capability that the army otherwise critically lacks.

And there's no comparison with Bladeguard.

Perdonally, I'd like to see guard Auxiliary units gain access to orders and regiments. Catachan bullgryns would be mean

Yes.

/thread.

Fair enough. I don't recall their being too useful in 8th even with psyker support. I anecdotally did not see any interest in them "ever".

In 9th, I haven't played Guard. So far I've only played as Tau, which I've just started. I can see Maul-based Ogryn having potential, particularly in the 2W MEQ era. I also don't see them "probably" making it to combat against a clever opponent, unless swarming with them, at which point there are better swarm-melee faction choices. I guess I'm saying that swarms of grunts with Plasmaguns and the Move Move Move order are more likley to get to an objective, and then have the potentialy to kill off MEQ's in the shooting phase and then have a unit move up from behind to hold the objective while the forward unit presses forward to create a buffer zone for the units behind. Each turn, advance the front-most unit to retake space, have the next unit move up to hold the objective, and repeat until you run out of turns or men.

That's why I picked 25 points... you need enough bodies to be a distraction carnifex or arrive in sufficient numbers to still be functional as a melee threat. As an opponent, if my Guard-playing opposite has one or two melee threats in Bullgryn, I'd prioritize shooting them down to allow my MEQ grunts to hold the line in melee against Guardsmen, you know what I mean? If they're taking 3 squads at full size, that's what, something like 600 points-ish? At that point, the Guardsman has made critical sacrifices to heavy firepower or expendable troops.

Good luck trying to succeed with Tau in 9th.

Serious question is how much terrain and specifically obscuring terrain are you playing with as most of my 9th edition games even with Tau the most avoid CC army going have a habit of decending into a scrum over objectives midboard.

Heck I often find myself split firing to try and avoid wiping out units holding objectives to allow me the free charge movement and then 1 round of combat to kill the reminnets off to claim the objectives.

Bullgryn seem like a perfect unit to plant on a contested objective and say come take this while the reminnets of the supersonic infantry squad use their obsec rules to claim it while hiding behind the bullgryn.

 Smotejob wrote:
Perdonally, I'd like to see guard Auxiliary units gain access to orders and regiments. Catachan bullgryns would be mean

Are Orgyn easily directed in fluff to follow orders? I couldn't care less balance wise since it should be fine (though terribly more efficient compared to Infantry or Conscripts). I dont follow the fluff on abhumans though.

Bullgryn are too expensive, Ogryns are too expensive by a good deal and Bladeguard vets are too cheap.

Much of the guard book needs a real deep rework to make things function. It always feels like only about a third of the book is worthwhile and the rest is book trash.

With some units never having been really good or they have been bad for so long you can't remember when they might have been good.

With the game as it is these days, they need to really make guard stuff have some oomph as even at their best it was basically just spamming cheap units and really some units should feel good/scary for them.

So yeah Bulls are too expensive and Blades too cheap. Though that is really more an issue with the guard book having aged poorly and some units just not being that wonderful for the whole duration.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
Perdonally, I'd like to see guard Auxiliary units gain access to orders and regiments. Catachan bullgryns would be mean

Are Orgyn easily directed in fluff to follow orders? I couldn't care less balance wise since it should be fine (though terribly more efficient compared to Infantry or Conscripts). I dont follow the fluff on abhumans though.

Loyal to a fault but dumb as bricks. A Bone 'Ead is one augmented to have the mental capacity of a young child, and are used as squad leaders. Orders wouldn't be fitting IMO.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Are Orgyn easily directed in fluff to follow orders? I couldn't care less balance wise since it should be fine (though terribly more efficient compared to Infantry or Conscripts). I dont follow the fluff on abhumans though.

They're claustrophobic by nature, so they don't like getting in to transports, but other than that tend to be very good at fitting into the social order of the Guard and following orders. They're known for their extreme loyalty, honestly.

I find bullgryn not undercosted, aslong as you consider that they should be buffed by imperial guard psychers, I think the problem is the guard codex could really use some significant buffs

 catbarf wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
Perdonally, I'd like to see guard Auxiliary units gain access to orders and regiments. Catachan bullgryns would be mean

Are Orgyn easily directed in fluff to follow orders? I couldn't care less balance wise since it should be fine (though terribly more efficient compared to Infantry or Conscripts). I dont follow the fluff on abhumans though.

Loyal to a fault but dumb as bricks. A Bone 'Ead is one augmented to have the mental capacity of a young child, and are used as squad leaders. Orders wouldn't be fitting IMO.

Basically this. I could see incredibly basic "Ogryn Orders", like SWING HARDER giving them +1 strength or something, or RUNNING TIME! for a +2" to the charge, but regular orders not so much.

I wouldn't mind seeing auxiliaries gain access to regimental traits, or the next book having minor auxiliary traits that you can also add to a regiment, so that you can pick say Regiment Type and then follow it up with an Auxiliary Specialty for extra customization.

Last I remember, Bullgryn were reasonably good, though in the age of things like Bladeguard maybe not as much. The issue is more with some units being undercosted than Bullgryns being overcosted though.

Ogryn on the other hand...I love them but unless the latest faq made some changes I don't remember, they are not that great. And Ogryn Bodyguards I have no clue where they lay on the meta.

Historically through most editions, Ogryns and their various flavors have struggled to attain mediocrity, much less competitiveness. They've been able to find limited places in gimmick lists for periods of time in more recent years, but in general, they've always suffered from being hideously overcosted for the resiliency and killing power they bring to the table, with cripplingly limited delivery options/mobility, and generally just being sub-par to simply taking more guns and basic dudes. Often they've been saddled with stupid stats or rules (like being Ld6 and...Stubborn).

Not sure I have any good recommendations currently, but Ogryns always seem to consistently feel like afterthoughts.

Yes, aux feel that way.
Ratlings & ogryn are just not great. The best thing ratling have going for them is that they are short and can hide... but their offensive output is so subpar.

Ogryn, despite being t5 just die so easy and do not have good dmg output. Nork could use a buff or an ogryn aura of some sort to make him useful. The ogryn's ripper gun is sad and underwhelming.

Bulls are prob right where they should be. I can buff them to be great midfield brawlers with conscripts in tow for obsec and board control. -1 to hit bulls with 3+ save conscripts nearby are hard to shift off midboard.

 Ordana wrote:
Bladeguard are to cheap. You can't compare stuff to bladeguard veterans. Almost everything will look to expensive.

They are 10 points less than a custodian. Which seems totally fair for -1s -1t -1 bs -1ws and a worse shooting weapon. I guess custodians are OP. LOL. wait we know they are!

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Bladeguard are to cheap. You can't compare stuff to bladeguard veterans. Almost everything will look to expensive.

They are 10 points less than a custodian. Which seems totally fair for -1s -1t -1 bs -1ws and a worse shooting weapon. I guess custodians are OP. LOL. wait we know they are!

Since when did Custodes get free AP plus the other buffs available in the marine codex.
Notice you skipped that custodes have 9 attack for 3 bodies to blade guards 13. Damage d3 to blade guard's flat 2, pistols vrs rapid fire weapons so no shooting in combat for custodes.

Their should be a point's difference between them but BGV arnt 10 points worse than a custode.

The first round they get more hits but the second round they get less. They only get 1 more hit and produce less wounds on that round too because they wound at -1. Against T4 it wont matter but at T5 T6 T3 str 6 absolutely matters.

They wound worse.
Get wounded easier.
have worse shooting.

The biggest factor here is T5. Easily worth 5 points alone on a model with 3 wounds and a 2+ 4++. The rest of the stats - WS BS and str are a bargain for 5 more points.

It is laughable to see a custodian player complaining about BG. LOL.

On the subject of orgryn/bullgryn

I have always felt the shooting weapon needs to be better and they should go to 4 wounds. Also a higher str characteristic would make sense.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The first round they get more hits but the second round they get less. They only get 1 more hit and produce less wounds on that round too because they wound at -1. Against T4 it wont matter but at T5 T6 T3 str 6 absolutely matters.

They wound worse.
Get wounded easier.
have worse shooting.

The biggest factor here is T5. Easily worth 5 points alone on a model with 3 wounds and a 2+ 4++. The rest of the stats - WS BS and str are a bargain for 5 more points.

It is laughable to see a custodian player complaining about BG. LOL.

On the subject of orgryn/bullgryn

I have always felt the shooting weapon needs to be better and they should go to 4 wounds. Also a higher str characteristic would make sense.

Well if Bladeguard should be 10 point's less than Custodes I look forward to sub 20 point crisis suits and 40 point broadsides.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The first round they get more hits but the second round they get less. They only get 1 more hit and produce less wounds on that round too because they wound at -1. Against T4 it wont matter but at T5 T6 T3 str 6 absolutely matters.

They wound worse.
Get wounded easier.
have worse shooting.

The biggest factor here is T5. Easily worth 5 points alone on a model with 3 wounds and a 2+ 4++. The rest of the stats - WS BS and str are a bargain for 5 more points.

It is laughable to see a custodian player complaining about BG. LOL.

On the subject of orgryn/bullgryn

I have always felt the shooting weapon needs to be better and they should go to 4 wounds. Also a higher str characteristic would make sense.

Custodes can get:
RR1s to-hit, with a Generic HQ
RR1s to-wound, with a Special Character HQ
+1 to-wound with Spears, with a Stratagem
Only wounded on a 4+, with a Stratagem

Bladeguard can get:
RR1s to-hit or RRAll, with a Generic HQ
+1 to-hit, with a Generic Elite
RR1s to-wound, with a Generic HQ
+1 to-wound, with a Generic HQ
6s to-hit autowound, with a Stratagem
Only wounded on a 4+, with a Stratagem
+1 AP on turns 4+ and potentially T3
+1 AP on turns 1-3 with a Strat
Fights First, with a Generic HQ
+1 Strength, Toughness, and Attacks on one model, with a Generic HQ
6+ FNP from a Generic Elite

Not to mention what was brought up earlier. The Flat 2 Damage is especially good against a wide variety of W2 targets.

In a one-on-one brawl between BGV and Custodian Guard with Spears, the Custodes might win.



So, it takes a while for slightly less points of unbuffed and lacking chapter tactics BGV to kill Custodian Guard. But kill them they do.

Yeah-even in a one on one brawl, the BGV come out ahead.

Last time we hashed out the BGV vs Custodes comparison, the BGV beat Custodes by a huge margin if they hit first and only lost by a narrow margin if they hit second. And that was without any buffs, of which the Marines have access to more. So I'm not sure I see the point in using Custodes as a reference point to argue that BGVs are costed appropriately.

 catbarf wrote:
Last time we hashed out the BGV vs Custodes comparison, the BGV beat Custodes by a significant margin. And that was without any buffs, of which the Marines have access to more. So I'm not sure I see the point in using Custodes as a reference point to argue that BGVs are costed appropriately.

Because Marine's are all fine and appropriately costed, unless they are not your flavour of the month of Marines.

Just great fun being a xeno or choas player in 9th.

 catbarf wrote:
Last time we hashed out the BGV vs Custodes comparison, the BGV beat Custodes by a huge margin if they hit first and only lost by a narrow margin if they hit second. And that was without any buffs, of which the Marines have access to more. So I'm not sure I see the point in using Custodes as a reference point to argue that BGVs are costed appropriately.

It's not a smashing victory if BGV go first, but then again, they're also a few points behind, and no chapter tactics. If I was really being fair, I'd've dropped the Custodes to a 5+, since the +1 Invuln is their chapter tactic. That'd have screwed them over pretty fierce.

BGV are a little bit too cheap, but this is beating a dead horse.

Bullgryn seem about right to me.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
Last time we hashed out the BGV vs Custodes comparison, the BGV beat Custodes by a huge margin if they hit first and only lost by a narrow margin if they hit second. And that was without any buffs, of which the Marines have access to more. So I'm not sure I see the point in using Custodes as a reference point to argue that BGVs are costed appropriately.

It's not a smashing victory if BGV go first, but then again, they're also a few points behind, and no chapter tactics. If I was really being fair, I'd've dropped the Custodes to a 5+, since the +1 Invuln is their chapter tactic. That'd have screwed them over pretty fierce.

LOL. Custodians have a 4++ and don't really have a "chapter tactic" - you'd never take a custodian without this +1 invune. So it's asinine so even suggest a 5++ custodian. There are several marine tactics which do exactly squat for melee anyways and it's not like those chapters don't use BG too...So be fair in the comparison 4++ is really a raw stat for the custodian if you have any sort of intellectual honesty.

The comparison should also include a shooting phase as well. In which a custodian unit averages a failed save on 1 wound. So you'd have a 1 wound BG at the start of the fight too. BG average should do a wound to CG about every 5 shooting phases.

Regardless.

The custodians average 2.46 wounds (this averages a kill and some carry over and possibly 2/3 kills with good damage rolls) to the BG where the BG average 2.16 wounds to the custodoes (2 wounds =1 kill).

If the custodies get charged first. They return an average kill to with 1.62 wounds going through. Holding even after the marines only rounds of bonus attacks.

These numbers are advatange custodians the whole way...probably because they are perfectly balanced units. Yeah the custodies cost more here so they should win and they do.

I did with a 4+ Invuln on the Custodes. BGV still won.

Quasistellar wrote:
BGV are a little bit too cheap, but this is beating a dead horse.

Bullgryn seem about right to me.

A bladegaurd is a vangaurd veteran with +1 wound and +1 attack. 23 points with just a storm sheild.

You trying to tell me that a MCPS and +1 W and attack is worth more than 12 points? (VV - BG)
But a custodian getting +1 S +1 T +WS +BS and a better melee and shooting weapons is worth less than 10? (BG to custodian)

How does this relate to Orgyn? have to figure out what these stats are worth if we are gonna have a discussion about whether orgyn are balanced compared to BG. I'd say Orgyn are a little lacking here. +1 W would really help them.