Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, eventually custodes are going to get their 9th Ed codex and I've been asking myself a lot lately what GW is going to do with wardens.
I haven't seen anybody play these guys in forever, they defentitely need some love.

How would you fix them? They need something better than a 6+ feelnopain.

You're forgetting the extra attack, built-in Misericordia for an additional attack, access to Castellan Axes and a couple of unique strats. They're not the best choice in an already expensive army, but IMO they definitely don't need any kind of fixing.

 Valkyrie wrote:
You're forgetting the extra attack, built-in Misericordia for an additional attack, access to Castellan Axes and a couple of unique strats. They're not the best choice in an already expensive army, but IMO they definitely don't need any kind of fixing.

They definitely are when they are eclipsed by every other elite in the army that fulfills a similar role....if nobody plays a decent unit like wardens for over a year, the unit needs some redesigning to get their own niche.

 Valkyrie wrote:
You're forgetting the extra attack, built-in Misericordia for an additional attack, access to Castellan Axes and a couple of unique strats. They're not the best choice in an already expensive army, but IMO they definitely don't need any kind of fixing.

The Misericordia isn't exactly "built in" since they're paying for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh also I'm not sure which Strats affect them in particular.

In theory "more elite Custodians" is a thing that could work, but GW couldn't be bothered to give the Wardens the ability to do anything distinct from any other unit, and purely on price-performance they're almost identical to spear-Guard in every way. Personally I'd drop the Warden datasheet and give the option for axes to Custodian Guard, it'd cut down on bloat and be effectively the same thing as having Wardens. You could emulate Hetaeron from 30k by making them bigger/killier, but without the subtleties of Initiative and AP from 7e that wouldn't be any better at distinguishing them from the Troops.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
In theory "more elite Custodians" is a thing that could work, but GW couldn't be bothered to give the Wardens the ability to do anything distinct from any other unit, and purely on price-performance they're almost identical to spear-Guard in every way. Personally I'd drop the Warden datasheet and give the option for axes to Custodian Guard, it'd cut down on bloat and be effectively the same thing as having Wardens. You could emulate Hetaeron from 30k by making them bigger/killier, but without the subtleties of Initiative and AP from 7e that wouldn't be any better at distinguishing them from the Troops.

Then you'd have a relatively new kit, that has no rules or datasheet. I don't see GW doing that.

Also custodes don't really suffer from rules bloat and have quite limited options anyway. So I'd definitely not be in favor to simply cutting an entire unique unit from their roster.

How about giving them a 5+ feelnopain or - 1 dmg against all attacks, which seems to be a trend for tough units anyway.

I'd be more in favor though for GW to give them interesting combat abilities to distinguish them from normal custodian guard.
Someone over in the custodes tactics thread suggested to give wardens an ability to inhibit enemy units from falling back, which I think is kinda cool.
Or bring back the block rule from 7th, where you could roll a D6 for each of your models against an enemy attack. If you rolled higher than what your opponent rolled on his attack roll, the attack is blocked. That could be a cool way to show that they are especially skilled combatants.
Give them something like that and raise their price accordingly.

How about, since Allarus are character killers, Wardens be the opposite and they get a variant of one of the bodyguard rules?

Wardens are really just Terminators without their armor.

They were granted the 6+++ and a +1 to the ignore a psychic power strat.

So if an Allarus terminator is 70pts, a warden with 1 less wound, no deep strike, loss of access to allarus strats and grenade launcher, but gaining a 6+++ would cost what?

They do need something, but im not sure what.

If you just reduce their points cost, they will get used. Anyone who owns and Orion dropship will be quite happy as they will have a reason to take them again.

They will start making terminators look bad though if they are 55pts with the axes.



You could give them something custodes actually needs though, which is an always "fights first" unit. Or even more anti-psycher (such as a deny once per turn or 4++ againgst mortal wounds).

You could also give them double obsec or a pre-game move.

my immidate preference would be for a extra strat support, or maybe a bonus to their FNP thats either a once per battle strat or limited to a certain enemy unit (for example, they declare before setup that their FNP focus is, say, the enemy warlord, and against his attacks alone they get a 4+ FNP). we can't play with their stats too much without getting into the statlines of their superior and inferior unit types.

as others have said, its a relitivly new sprue, so they're arent just going to get rid of them, and they are also not really going to change the physical models either. Nor do i want them to, becuase i would rather they spent that sculptors time on making new units like a Null-Mistress HQ option for the SoS, or a 2nd troop option. So, whatever solution we would like, it should be able to run with the existing models and options.

the double obsec rule sounds intresting, but i feel it might be OP. maybe make it a strat?

fights first might be intresting, maybe tie it to spear wardens (to better differentiate them form spear guardians)?

edit: also, stupid n00b question, because i still cant actually get any game time with the current lockdown: does the wardens statline include the Misericordia's extra attack or is it the statline number of attacks, plus an additional one for the Misericordia ?

I love the idea that they lock things into combat. You would not be able to "fall back" or walk out of combat from them. Once in combat you must remain within 1" of the unit at all times. It would be a great way to counter shooty heavy lists and vehicle lists.

I also think Axes should be flat 3 damage, and spears flat 2. There is no reason they need to cost more than a DA BGV or BA DW Terminator, for an arguably worse model.

How about also slapping a judiciar-esque rule on them that let's an enemy unit fight last.

Every melee centered army in 9th and their grandmother seems to either have a "fight first" or "make others fight last" rule. I think the golden boys should not be an exception to that trend, given that their are primarily melee focused.

I think if we keep the weapons RNG damage, they should at a minimum have the ability to do mortals on 6s. If you get hit with a 8 foot tall axe by a 9 foot tall giant demi-god, I don't care who made your armor or halo, you should take a wound.

I'm wondering if it's worth implementing a rule to represent their various oaths, such as:

Oath of Glory: At the start of the first battle round, nominate a single Battlefield Role (ie; HQ, Troops, Elites, etc). This unit may re-roll 1's to wound against units in the selected role.

 Valkyrie wrote:
I'm wondering if it's worth implementing a rule to represent their various oaths, such as:

Oath of Glory: At the start of the first battle round, nominate a single Battlefield Role (ie; HQ, Troops, Elites, etc). This unit may re-roll 1's to wound against units in the selected role.

Eh too lifted from Deathwatch. That's why I suggested the bodyguard rule: nobody in the army has it so it's technically one more role that could be filled.

I have an idea! Lets give Custodes a mecha suit baby carrier for Wardens as a option? Take the Sisters mech suit and paint it golden, viola MECHA CUSTODES. I'll go break my fingers now.

 Valkyrie wrote:
I'm wondering if it's worth implementing a rule to represent their various oaths, such as:

Oath of Glory: At the start of the first battle round, nominate a single Battlefield Role (ie; HQ, Troops, Elites, etc). This unit may re-roll 1's to wound against units in the selected role.

I do like the concept of expanding on their oaths. Although I agree that re-rolling 1's vs a battlefield role is a bit too derivative of deathwatch.
In the fluff their oaths are one of the defining features that distinguishes wardens from normal custodes. Granting them powerful wills.
Currently their willpower is represented by their 6+++ and a bonus to a deny psychic power stratagem.

So perhaps just coming up with a list of more interesting oaths would help.
For example picking one of the following for each unit of wardens.

Oath of Mental Fortitude (add 2 to their 6+++ against mortals in the psychic phase)

Oath of Shielding (give them the effect of the Shield of Honour stratagem once per turn for free. This is the Aquilan Shields stratagem from War of the Spider. It forces an enemy unit which is shooting at a nearby character to shoot the wardens instead)

Oath of Steadfastness (each warden counts as 3 models for holding objectives)

I'm not particularly attached to those examples. They're just ones I came up with off the top of my head as demonstrations.

What is the intended purpose of Wardens by GW? Elite Guardian? Below a SC but above a Guardian? Less killy than a Terminator, but harder to move than a Terminator as well.

So what is their purpose? Shock troops for front line anti-T7+ units? I don't think so. I would guess that GW intended to make them just the elite, but then the Terminators should have been Heavy?

If we could know the intent behind them we might be able to build off that. I say give them extra movement, and leave them in obscurity...

I don't see any issue with wardens. Strong unit - fair price - stratagem shenanigans. What we need is a new unit called "Super elite Custodians" then maybe after that we could include entire units of Primarchs.

I do see the silliness in the idea of buffing the weakest unit in what could be considered one of the top 3 factions in the game currently. We don't need stronger units..

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I do see the silliness in the idea of buffing the weakest unit in what could be considered one of the top 3 factions in the game currently. We don't need stronger units..

They aren't weak though. The pay an appropriate amount over a CG for their additional wound and FNP and weapon. Terms are only taken over wardens because of stratagems - it has nothing to do with the raw stats. Wardens are pretty darn deadly. They are distinguished over CG by many things...weapon/attacks/extra wound - what more do you want and do you want to pay for it.

I think people believe they need altering because they have no purpose. They can't do character targeting, they can't be characters, they can't do anything that can't be done better by other units. It's a perfectly valid reason for altering them to make them have a purpose. It's not a judgement on their effectiveness or their cost vs other units, but they have no real purpose. I’d really only consider Wardens if I didn’t have cheap units to hold backfield or even some midfield objectives. Otherwise, I think that they’re just too expensive. Even with spears they are too expensive for the points they may achieve.

I really don't like suggesting this, but if wardens just feel like over coated CG, which I get the 6+FNP is meh I'll agree however a -1 Damage replacement I think would see them probably apear on tables.

But if they really need something how about

In the presence of legends
Non charictor Custodian Guard units within 6 inches of this unit add +1 to their attacks characteristic.
I don't really want it to affect Allaurus or Aqulions but short of calling them out by name and then havibg issues if a future unit is introduced I can't figure out a way to do it.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think people believe they need altering because they have no purpose. They can't do character targeting, they can't be characters, they can't do anything that can't be done better by other units. It's a perfectly valid reason for altering them to make them have a purpose. It's not a judgement on their effectiveness or their cost vs other units, but they have no real purpose. I’d really only consider Wardens if I didn’t have cheap units to hold backfield or even some midfield objectives. Otherwise, I think that they’re just too expensive. Even with spears they are too expensive for the points they may achieve.

Well they do have a purpose. They deny psychic powers on a 3+. Youd think with Morty and Slanesh Daemons running around that would be attractive.

Probably turns out you'd have to take less Jetbikes then though and that is not desirable.

According to the fluff, Wardens are supposed to be the grizzled old Vets of the Custodes, like 1 foot in the dreadnaught old. So you would think they would have some form of Veterans statline like the Sternguard Veterans do. I'd settle for being able to mix and match the different spears with them. A squad of 10 with melta spears? Ugly!

Ice_can wrote:
I really don't like suggesting this, but if wardens just feel like over coated CG, which I get the 6+FNP is meh I'll agree however a -1 Damage replacement I think would see them probably apear on tables.

But if they really need something how about

In the presence of legends
Non charictor Custodian Guard units within 6 inches of this unit add +1 to their attacks characteristic.
I don't really want it to affect Allaurus or Aqulions but short of calling them out by name and then havibg issues if a future unit is introduced I can't figure out a way to do it.

-1 damage would be a massive buff.

An aura of bonus attacks can come from your banner which ofc you take the -1 to hit banner instead because its OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
According to the fluff, Wardens are supposed to be the grizzled old Vets of the Custodes, like 1 foot in the dreadnaught old. So you would think they would have some form of Veterans statline like the Sternguard Veterans do. I'd settle for being able to mix and match the different spears with them. A squad of 10 with melta spears? Ugly!

Personally that fluff is weak AF. There is no such thing as an unvetreen Custodian. Sterngaurd vets are literally a plus 1 attack space marine...no bonus wounds or FNP. They get customizable weapons you gotta pay a lot for them though.

Yeah I love the pyrite spears too. IMO they make all these choices obsolete. Every infantry in my custodians army would be a pyrite spear. Would you like a hybrid eradicator with a 4++ that excels in melee for your troops choice...

Honestly thats the main reason wardens are so boring though. The models look good, but why would you take a 6+++ in exchange for -1w, loss of deep strike, and loss of the good allarus strats?

They arent even that much cheaper points-wise.

They need to be upgunned, or given an ability that really makes them unique.

You want them to be anti-psycher? Dont give them +1 to stop a power cast on them. Give them one deny a turn and make any power cast on them perils on all doubles.

You want them to be the grizzled vets. Dont give them a 6+++. Give them a chance to parry mortals back at whoever attacks them or reduce incoming attacks.

Let them reroll 1's to charge and never take casualties for riding in a transport when it explodes.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Honestly thats the main reason wardens are so boring though. The models look good, but why would you take a 6+++ in exchange for -1w, loss of deep strike, and loss of the good allarus strats?

They arent even that much cheaper points-wise.

They need to be upgunned, or given an ability that really makes them unique.

You want them to be anti-psycher? Dont give them +1 to stop a power cast on them. Give them one deny a turn and make any power cast on them perils on all doubles.

You want them to be the grizzled vets. Dont give them a 6+++. Give them a chance to parry mortals back at whoever attacks them or reduce incoming attacks.

Let them reroll 1's to charge and never take casualties for riding in a transport when it explodes.

Honestly I like all of those changes. None of them even need a point change. Just plug and play.

 Xenomancers wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think people believe they need altering because they have no purpose. They can't do character targeting, they can't be characters, they can't do anything that can't be done better by other units. It's a perfectly valid reason for altering them to make them have a purpose. It's not a judgement on their effectiveness or their cost vs other units, but they have no real purpose. I’d really only consider Wardens if I didn’t have cheap units to hold backfield or even some midfield objectives. Otherwise, I think that they’re just too expensive. Even with spears they are too expensive for the points they may achieve.

Well they do have a purpose. They deny psychic powers on a 3+. Youd think with Morty and Slanesh Daemons running around that would be attractive.

Probably turns out you'd have to take less Jetbikes then though and that is not desirable.

But the Strat itself already denies on a 4+, so it really isn't much an improvement.

 Xenomancers wrote:
They aren't weak though. The pay an appropriate amount over a CG for their additional wound and FNP and weapon. Terms are only taken over wardens because of stratagems - it has nothing to do with the raw stats. Wardens are pretty darn deadly. They are distinguished over CG by many things...weapon/attacks/extra wound - what more do you want and do you want to pay for it.

Just FYI, they don't have an extra wound over custodian guard. They still just have 3.

Custodes need a better Warden like Astartes need a better Eradicator. But to be fair, we are not asking for better, we are asking for unique. All we want is not another carbon copy of the Guardian with better melee. I would love for them to have some form of role as a chaplain unit. 3-5 man unit, that sings the songs of dead heroes. All we want is unique. We are the only faction with less plastic units than resin, and three of our plastic units are complete garbage or useless. Wardens, LRs, and Contemptors.