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Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





As many of you know, the absence of earth's oceans has been a part of 40k lore since the early days. GW just waved it off as "the oceans were evaporated (and somehow destroyed) by nuclear wars." This is, of course, entirely absurd in my humble opinion. Even if it were somehow possible that so many nukes were detonated in the oceans that they evaporated them (without completely eliminating all life on the planet), then the oceans evaporated they would eventually return as rain.

A better explanation, I think, would be that the oceans are gone because desalinization was used to convert the oceans into drinking water. It is plausible (relatively speaking) the majority of the oceans' water was siphoned off by thousands of years of human exploration/colonization missions (pre-emperor) that extracted earth's water for drinking purposes, hydroponics on colony ships, and (during the onset of the dark age of tech) probably still used water to cool the nuclear reactors on ships, etc.

The rest of the oceans' water resides in the bodies of the billions upon billions of humans that live on terra, mars, Luna, Titan, outlying mining stations, orbital defenses, etc. This not only explains where the water went, but how people continue to survive. Advanced water filtration systems that recycle human waste, extract moisture from the atmosphere (evaporated human perspiration).

What do you all think? Is there any official 40k fluff to support this theory?

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I think they just wanted the imagery of a completely dead planet, and 'no oceans' helps with that.

Recycling and filtration doesn't really seem sustainable for the sheer population of the Imperial Palace, and the untold billions of pilgrims, let alone the rest of the planet.

Its more a suspension of disbelief point than a puzzle with a workable solution.

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Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







I did a rough calculation a while back that suggested all the water was needed to make the concrete required to turn the earth into a massive hive world.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Norwich

parts of the palace have actual climates and are so large they have clouds, most of the water on Terra is in the plumbing system I would guess.

   
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Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





Spoiler:
Voss wrote:I think they just wanted the imagery of a completely dead planet, and 'no oceans' helps with that.

Recycling and filtration doesn't really seem sustainable for the sheer population of the Imperial Palace, and the untold billions of pilgrims, let alone the rest of the planet.

Its more a suspension of disbelief point than a puzzle with a workable solution.


Yes, I get that its an exaggerated premise to begin with - everything in 40k requires a suspension of disbelief. Obviously there would be a net loss (recycling isn't perfect). You do bring up an interesting point. 40k fluff often gives off-handed comments about the vast resources consumed by Terra. Maybe pilgrims are also bringing water to Terra, perhaps even in the form of a tithe, i.e., the administratum requires pilgrim ships (or any ships for that matter) to devote a portion of their cargo space to a water tithe, if they wish to come anywhere near Terra.

Spoiler:
Flinty wrote:I did a rough calculation a while back that suggested all the water was needed to make the concrete required to turn the earth into a massive hive world.


That is a very good point!

They could also harvest ice from asteroids and planetoids within the solar system too.

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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






Regarding the "the water should have rained down" point: It depends if earth had a functioning atmosphere the whole time. I currently don't remember the name but our atmosphere has a very important layer that is cold enough that water vapor condenses before it gets high enough to be blown away by solar winds. Venus on the other hand hasn't which (at least I read that hypotheses) would have led to our neighbour planet "drying out" if it ever had water. If earth lost that layer during the nuclear wars, it might have lost a significant amount of its condensed water to space.

Nontheless I think your theory that the water is in the humans as well as the others mentioned that lots got lost into construction or to space exploration make a lot of sense.

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San Jose, CA

I would assume that there are water guilds on Terra much like on Necromunda. It's a valuable commodity and the Administratum wouldn't want to lose out on tithe, so water "harvesting"(see tank girl for what that means) would be a thing. All those removed limbs and organic parts from servitor creation would have H2O locked away in them.....
   
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[DCM]
Procrastinator extraordinaire





Edinburgh, UK

I assume terra and the other inhabited planets manage their water through recycling as already mentioned, but it's also very likely they're mining ice off world from the Kuiper Belt or the Oort Cloud as a way of sustaining themselves on a dry planet.

Considering Earth right now is already having water shortages, it wouldn't surprise me the Ad Mech or some other organisation have been mining the ice.

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 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I assume terra and the other inhabited planets manage their water through recycling as already mentioned, but it's also very likely they're mining ice off world from the Kuiper Belt or the Oort Cloud as a way of sustaining themselves on a dry planet.

Considering Earth right now is already having water shortages, it wouldn't surprise me the Ad Mech or some other organisation have been mining the ice.


Earth now has no shortage of water, just a shortage of fresh water; and partly because its considered too costly to desalinate seawater, of which there is plenty. It's not a lack of water problem, its a lack of money problem - or at least a lack of desire to spend that money on something as frivolous as water!

If you have enough water for everyone for a day, then most of it in a closed system isn't getting lost anywhere, so you can probably recycle, re-condense most of it into useable water once more. It's not like you're going to need to bring in enough fresh water every single day to support the populace, just enough to replenish the relatively small percentage lost that can't be recycled.
   
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Procrastinator extraordinaire





Edinburgh, UK

I think it was obvious I was talking about fresh water but nevertheless, the fact that we don't desalinise water on a massive scale right now still leaves us with a water shortage (note I did not say we don't have a lack of water) so my comment still stands in relation to my actual point.

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To the comment above about the concrete alone would use up all the water... Doesn't the water evaporate out of the concretes surface when it is fully dry?

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I mean a world in the Infinite and the Divine novel did sell off a great deal of its water to Imperial Shipping in order to cool their reactors or for other purposes. This means that extraction of vast quantities of water is a probable reason for why Terra has no Water. Someone may have taken a great deal of it...

I wish that they'd gather material from the Oort Cloud to revitalize Terra. If any planet in the Imperium should be pleasant, Terra should be that planet. To let the Cradle World fall into such a state.
   
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Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





Spoiler:
panzerfront14 wrote:
I mean a world in the Infinite and the Divine novel did sell off a great deal of its water to Imperial Shipping in order to cool their reactors or for other purposes. This means that extraction of vast quantities of water is a probable reason for why Terra has no Water. Someone may have taken a great deal of it...

I wish that they'd gather material from the Oort Cloud to revitalize Terra. If any planet in the Imperium should be pleasant, Terra should be that planet. To let the Cradle World fall into such a state.


This brings up a good point. It suggests that Terra, Mars, the whole Sol System were largely unimportant (politically, culturally, etc.) by the advent of the Dark Age of Technology, which makes a good bit of sense. In the real world, Earth is already seeing dire consequences of plastic and chemical pollution, dumps of radioactive material, and greenhouse gas emission. It makes sense that when humans first spread throughout the galaxy, they stripped the planet and solar system of water and other resources, abandoning it to its fate while they literally moved on to greener pastures.

Does anyone recall from the Horus Heresy if the oceans on Terra were already gone or mostly gone by the time the emperor unified Terra? I was always under the impression that was the case, but I haven't kept up with all the new fluff in the past few years.

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 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
To the comment above about the concrete alone would use up all the water... Doesn't the water evaporate out of the concretes surface when it is fully dry?


No. Water bonds chemically into the cement matrix as part of the hardening process. You dont get hard concrete because it dries, but because the cement and water reform into something like the rock from.which the cement.powder was created. Some water will evaporate, but most will be locked into the material.chemically, and yet more gets trapped in the little holes and cracks that run through concrete. Concrete looks dull, but it is really complicated...

As noted in the link below, concrete can set under water, so it's not an evaporation process.

http://www.planete-tp.com/en/the-setting-of-cement-and-hardening-of-concrete-a220.html

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/25 21:09:58


Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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Procrastinator extraordinaire





Edinburgh, UK

 Grumblewartz wrote:
Spoiler:
panzerfront14 wrote:
I mean a world in the Infinite and the Divine novel did sell off a great deal of its water to Imperial Shipping in order to cool their reactors or for other purposes. This means that extraction of vast quantities of water is a probable reason for why Terra has no Water. Someone may have taken a great deal of it...

I wish that they'd gather material from the Oort Cloud to revitalize Terra. If any planet in the Imperium should be pleasant, Terra should be that planet. To let the Cradle World fall into such a state.


This brings up a good point. It suggests that Terra, Mars, the whole Sol System were largely unimportant (politically, culturally, etc.) by the advent of the Dark Age of Technology, which makes a good bit of sense. In the real world, Earth is already seeing dire consequences of plastic and chemical pollution, dumps of radioactive material, and greenhouse gas emission. It makes sense that when humans first spread throughout the galaxy, they stripped the planet and solar system of water and other resources, abandoning it to its fate while they literally moved on to greener pastures.

Does anyone recall from the Horus Heresy if the oceans on Terra were already gone or mostly gone by the time the emperor unified Terra? I was always under the impression that was the case, but I haven't kept up with all the new fluff in the past few years.


I think in Tales of Heresy (? The one with the Last Church and other short stories), the Mariana Trench is above ground so they're gone before the Heresy.

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On a tangent to this, i wonder how holy terra handles all it's holy gak.

I mean, imagine the waste all those humans produce daily. It might outweigh the human population of earth today. There must be some incredible sewage treatment system going on, i imagine the vast multitudes eat and drink 'food' and water recycled endless from gak and whiz constantly.

Perhaps the constant stream of pilgrims provide some of the only fresh food and water on terra?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
panzerfront14 wrote:
I mean a world in the Infinite and the Divine novel did sell off a great deal of its water to Imperial Shipping in order to cool their reactors or for other purposes. This means that extraction of vast quantities of water is a probable reason for why Terra has no Water. Someone may have taken a great deal of it...

I wish that they'd gather material from the Oort Cloud to revitalize Terra. If any planet in the Imperium should be pleasant, Terra should be that planet. To let the Cradle World fall into such a state.


How was the infinite and the divine? Worth reading? The cover is kind of gak IMO...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/01 21:19:58


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Longtime Dakkanaut





In the 41st mellenium, I'm sure there is more water in the form of various other liquids (be it blood, drinks, cooling liquid etc) and in the pipes sewer systems than exists on Earth today in our oceans and water ways.

30K Terra was a parched mad max wasteland with a few oasis of standing ground water, but the Holy Terra of the 41st mellenium sits at the center of a galactic empire that can and will give the holy world anything and everything it needs and wants.

There's just no place for standing bodies of water however.

   
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In one of the recent(ish) HH novels Dorn is standing on the phalanx as the last of the orbital plates is being pulled away to prepare for the siege. It specifically mentions him looking at the beginnings of a sea that is reforming.

Evidently the emperor was planning to revitalize Terra but just not in time.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




I don't think there are any seas left on Terra now after the Heresy.

As for the waste systems, I think the same could be said of any Hive World. Remember that even though Hive worlds are portrayed as needing vast food imports, most of this food that is recognizable as food will be for the upper class. The masses have to get by on recycled stuff or at best perhaps processed rations shipped from elsewhere. The Necromunda background portrays the masses to have their own mushroom or other fungal farms, so mycoculture is clearly a major source of food, as well as raising and eating various forms of hive flora. I could imagine House Cawdor for example having a stranglehold on the waste systems, and that leading to them being able to grow and sustain their large population. It may be stinking messy work but human waste has historically been used for agriculture for thousands of years.
   
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Wing Commander





Bristol (UK)

I imagine they import food and export excre-, sorry, fertiliser.
Certainly for the lower classes it's probably the same bulk transporters bringing in semi liquid nutrient slurry, shipping out the sewage, then repeating the process in reverse on the agri-world, probably without even washing out the tanks between.
   
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 kirotheavenger wrote:
I imagine they import food and export excre-, sorry, fertiliser.
Certainly for the lower classes it's probably the same bulk transporters bringing in semi liquid nutrient slurry, shipping out the sewage, then repeating the process in reverse on the agri-world, probably without even washing out the tanks between.


The main source of food the serf and slave classes is reconstituted human corpses and mass produced artificial nutrient paste, as I recall. But, 40k took an awful lot from Dune, so I presume they also squeeze the water out of human corpses and recycle it (as they the Fremen did).

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Gainesville, VA

One would also imagine that human waste would be dehydrated also, to reclaim the water - before being sent to an agri world as fertilizer or fuel. In return for food.

Plus the amount of food imported would also contain a large amount of water already. So really unless they are using up a large amount of water in construction or something else that permanently removes it from future use, then recycling and reclamation, plus the water in imported food should just about be enough to sustain.
   
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I just accept the headcanon that an donkey-cave Psyker teleported all the Terra's oceans to Warp.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





If all the oceans disappeared then wouldn’t the atmosphere descend to fill the space left by the oceans? Considering the size of the oceans I’d guess that would mean no oxygen at what we currently call sea level
   
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Canada

mrFickle wrote:
If all the oceans disappeared then wouldn’t the atmosphere descend to fill the space left by the oceans? Considering the size of the oceans I’d guess that would mean no oxygen at what we currently call sea level


Yes, to the first part.

No to the second. There's still breathable oxygen up at 22,000 feet above sea level right now, and the average depth of the ocean is 12,000 feet; so, even if all the water were just sucked into a warp storm, we'd still have breathable air at present sea level, you'd just have to start using bottled O2 at places that are currently 10,000 feet or so elevation.

But water is hydrogen and O2, so depending on HOW the oceans got removed, we might have more of those added in as well.

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Longtime Dakkanaut





VonGerrow wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
If all the oceans disappeared then wouldn’t the atmosphere descend to fill the space left by the oceans? Considering the size of the oceans I’d guess that would mean no oxygen at what we currently call sea level


Yes, to the first part.

No to the second. There's still breathable oxygen up at 22,000 feet above sea level right now, and the average depth of the ocean is 12,000 feet; so, even if all the water were just sucked into a warp storm, we'd still have breathable air at present sea level, you'd just have to start using bottled O2 at places that are currently 10,000 feet or so elevation.

But water is hydrogen and O2, so depending on HOW the oceans got removed, we might have more of those added in as well.


interesting but if the volume of o2 was significantly increased in the atmosphere I think that would be deadly. it could make the entire atmosphere very explosive swell
   
Made in it
Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine





Sesto San Giovanni, Italy

Fun fact: current concentration of oxygen in atmosphere is 21%. The explosive limit is 24%.
We however already have an explosive atmosphere, we simply call them "fires".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/11 12:13:18


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





 Grumblewartz wrote:
dumps of radioactive material

Erm, no. That is a complete and total non-issue blown to gigantic scale by 'nukular' scares. All the radioactive waste material we ever produced wouldn't even fill one football stadium. You could fill one big mine with it, seal it, and it would be the end of "problem" that only exists due to NIMBYists. It would be even less of a "problem" if we used throughburning reactors and recycled nuclear 'waste' (which in reality contains some really expensive elements, we just don't reprocess it because NIMBYies, again) to reduce waste to less than 1% - 40K probably does it as a matter of course.

Funnily enough, renewables produce vastly more pollution (just look up rivers next to solar factories in China, or pollution and other issues caused by rare earth mining needed to make them work) but it's not 'nukular' so no one screeches about it, in fact the issue tends to be quietly suppressed. Another fun fact - burning coal and oil globally releases more radioactive material into air we breathe than Chernobyl and Fukushima combined did in total (50 to 80 times more, each year, in fact) but that's again not 'nukular' enough so no one screams about it.

Anyway, people here mentioned desalinization. That is not some magic want, wave it and presto, fresh water comes out - the waste from it is hypersaline water. Which needs to be dumped somewhere - if you dump it into the sea next to desalinization plant, you kill water plants and animals, not to mention making sea water harder and harder to process for the plant itself, and that's with our small scale efforts today. There might well be water on Terra, it's just locked in hypersaline seas saltier and dead-er than Dead Sea, making it difficult to process even for future technology.
   
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Early.adeptus mechanicus probably took the salt out for salt golems that they needed for a) digging the big important trench at one end and b) filling in the big important trench at the other end. Over and over. Forever. It was just a happy coincidence that this left a.huge stockpile of "waste" in the form of fresh drinkable water... that they turned into concrete nonstop it evaporating or unsanctioned luddites from drinking it or something.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/12 23:33:08


Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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Couldn't they just make more water via fusion?
   
 
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