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These 3 factions in my mind are struggling the most, would like to hear some creative buffs you guys might have in mind to buff these guys

I follow the guard abit and I understand that pure infantry is doing decent, but painting 175 guardsman can be an epic undertaking of extreme masochistic brutality

I'll start by upgrading heavy weapons, the las-cannon should be a min of 3 damage on a d6, the auto-cannon should become strength 8 and possibly ap-2, point costs should be changed by only being a factor of 5, thus allowing things like grenade launchers to be more viable. The chem-cannon on the hellhound should be 12inch range instead of 8inch range, sponson/hull weapons should be reduced in 5 points on regular (non-tankcommander) leman-russes, regular leman-russ should be reduced in points, turret weapons could use some buffs, like the battlecannon should be flat damage 2 rather than d3 and possibly turned into ap-3, I think that regular guards-man should be able to screen shots if they are close and in front of heavy weapon squads on like a 3+, also heavy weapon squads should be able to be taken in sets of 3 per heavy support slot.

bat702 wrote:
I'll start by upgrading heavy weapons, the las-cannon should be a min of 3 damage on a d6, the auto-cannon should become strength 8 and possibly ap-2, point costs should be changed by only being a factor of 5... (etc)

It remains to be seen if GW is hell-bent on a path of making everything toughter, then making guns bigger to compensate, then making everything tougher to compensate, etc.

Ultimately bigger guns with fewer shots and more expensive elites with fewer models benefit the low toughness armies - a T3 guardsman/guardian/firewarrior is no more dead when hit by the strength 7 or 8 weapon.

I honestly feel as tho the standard las-cannon and auto-cannon dont hit nearly as hard as they should

For tau: markerlights absolutely need a rework and imo battlesuits, at least crisis suits should be BS 3+. Kroot need a rework to be actually viable, and preferably more melee centered auxillary xenos that were integrated into the greater good....there are basically endless possibilities going that direction.

I really disagree that Tau should get a melee capable unit of any type.

Apologies if this comes across as a bit strong, but weakness to melee isn’t a design oversight - its a deliberate choice.

Tau should suffer in HTH. That’s their intended weakness. Nothing should mitigate that beyond sensible application of firepower to stop the opponent getting into HTH.

This is kinda a trigger point for me, as ever since Tau were released, I’ve seen requests for them to get HTH oriented suits. It’s nothing against posters in this thread, or even this forum

I feel as tho kroot should be viable as a hybrid of shooter/close-combat cheap infantry, but they should require their own detachment to be competitive

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Apologies if this comes across as a bit strong, but weakness to melee isn’t a design oversight - its a deliberate choice.

Which is all well and good..when the underlying design of the game doesnt make close combat, charging and extra movement the linchpins of the system. 9th has firmly thrown that out the window, and Tau's inability to exist in any phase beyond shooting is an existential flaw to the entire army.

It's good to have rules based off of fluff. The problem is when then that fluff is inherently incompatible with the actual game, you end up with a faction that simply can't function.

The easy 1st turn charges in 9th edition really hurts a "only shooty" faction

Tau don't need shooting, they just need a way to move after clearing a target from an objective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bat702 wrote:
The easy 1st turn charges in 9th edition really hurts a "only shooty" faction

Those are probably going away.

Quicken, warp time and hyve commander will likely not survive the codex.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I really disagree that Tau should get a melee capable unit of any type.

Apologies if this comes across as a bit strong, but weakness to melee isn’t a design oversight - its a deliberate choice.

Tau should suffer in HTH. That’s their intended weakness. Nothing should mitigate that beyond sensible application of firepower to stop the opponent getting into HTH.

This is kinda a trigger point for me, as ever since Tau were released, I’ve seen requests for them to get HTH oriented suits. It’s nothing against posters in this thread, or even this forum

It doesn't make sense though. A battle suit with arms and legs should be capable of hitting things in a pinch and there is no reason it shouldn't be hitting accurately ether. I am cool with tau soliders not being adept at melee - they might not even have any training for it. However - with the way the battlefield works in the w0k universe - not having an answer to melee in your lines is just idiotic. Why make robots if they have all the weaknesses your soldiers do?

I feel as tho a different set of battle-suits that are based on melee should be made, even if they arent very point efficient, one of the ways in which the tau empire could evolve is realizing they need to have some sort of melee fighting to serve the greater good

Tau fundamentally require the ability to charge and sweep a unit off of an objective. Personally, I would change the concept of "Montka/Kauyon" to:

Each command phase, select for your Commander to be employing Montka or Kauyon doctrine, which grants a special ability to all units within 6".

Kauyon: the units forgo their normal shooting phase in order to fire with +1 to hit at the end of their opponent's shooting phase.

Mont'ka: the units forgo their normal shooting phase, but can declare charges even if they Advanced this turn, and rather than attacking with melee weapons in the fight phase, they attack with all their shooting weapons as if they had made a normal move.

I agree that Tau shouldn't have melee battlesuits, lack of melee is a central point if the faction.
Instead, give them Jump Shoot Jump back. Now, they can clear an objective and take it in a single turn without needing melee.
But the suits doing it will be vulnerable to counter charges and lack ObSec.

I think guard need some kind of vehicle rework to make a mix of infantry and vehicles viable, at the moment vehicles are a little too squishy and not quite killy enough to take their weight in other stuff. I'd love to see baneblades get tougher or repair themselves or something.

Eldar I have no idea about. I've never played as them and never not seen them played by someone who knew the army inside-out and made them dance.

Tau are not good at earning points the way the game expects you to, it just doesn't work with their kit. The first step to fixing them is to give them ways to earn points by playing them to their strengths. Beyond that, a slight improvement to BS on units that obstensibly are qualified marksmen in the lore (battlesuits, or at least crisis bodyguards for a start!) would go a long way making their elites feel elite.

Most importantly, Tau need jump-shoot-jump back, whether through a basic rule or a stratagem or something. Battlesuits should be popping in and out of cover forcing you to move to deal with them.

For Tau:
- Nerf Drones. The current Saviour Protocols rule sucks, it's unfun to play with and against. No idea on how it could be changed, but at least make it work on a 3+ or 4+ roll instead.
- Nerf the free overwatch. It just slows the game down and encourages the castle gameplay that everyone hates. Let units overwatch toegether but only using the generic stratagem.
- Buff VEHICLES. Make Drone rules work on them as well as on BATTLESUITS.
- Buff Crisis suits mobility. 8" movement is a joke for a supposedly super fast battlesuit, make it 10" or 12".
- Buff JETPACK battlesuit units. Let them have a rule that allows you to a) Shoot after Fall back or b) move X" in the Charge phase. Can't do both in the same turn, so you either disengage from combat and shoot or you move again after shooting.
- BS 3+ on Crisis suits and bigger stuff.
- Rework Markerlights. In 7th they worked just fine, with 9th ed restrictions on +1/-1 To Hit modifiers the old rule would be fine.
And price everything accordingly in terms of points.

That's it. No need for new units, shooting while in combat or new melee stuff. Just let Tau be a mobile glass cannon army like in the old days.

Guard struggle with the fact that 8th edition was based around spamming detachments, and 9th is the opposite. They also have several weapon options that just plain don't work with the 'everything a multiple of 5' point value change.

This somewhat goes for GSC as well. In my opinion the following weapons require some kind of slight boost: Grenade Launcher, Webber, Web Pistol, Seismic Cannon, Mortar, Heavy Mortar, Power weapons and plasma pistols/bolter pistols for GEQ sergeants could just be free tbh with powerfist at 5pts as well as stubbers on the various upgrade models GSC have.

For Guard to be able to clear an objective, I think they should change the way auras work to: Platoon commanders can issue an order to one squad, Company Commanders issue an order to all squads within 6", make "The Emperor's Hammer" mean something.

Then I would change the orders system to this:

During the Command phase, all OFFICER keyword units issue orders. if an OFFICER keyword unit is embarked within a TRANSPORT, they are considered to be within 6" of all units also embarked within the same TRANSPORT. If an OFFICER keyword unit is in Reserves, he is considered to be within 6" of any other units in Reserves.

A squad with a vox caster can receive an order issued by an OFFICER model on the battlefield up to 18" away.

All squads can only benefit from one order per turn. If a platoon commander (or a Tprime) model issues an order, select 1 friendly guard CORE unit within 6" to be issued that order. If a company commander (or a rod of command TPrime) issues an order, all friendly guard CORE units within 6" may benefit from the order.

All units may only benefit from 1 order per turn.

"Fire on my target!" The officer selects an enemy unit within line of sight, all squads affected by this order gain +1 to hit that target. Replaces the reroll 1s to hit order.

"Fix Bayonets!" During the fight phase of this turn, all squads that were issued this order fight twice.

"Take Cover!" Until your next command phase all squads that were issued this order add +1 to all save rolls (cumulative with all other rules. The stratagem that does this is removed)

"Move! Move! Move!" All units that were issued this order roll 3d6 and pick the highest for Advance rolls, and count as having made a Normal Move if they Advanced.

"Bring it Down!" A unit that was issued this order selects 1 model in the shooting phase. That model rerolls all hit, wound, and damage rolls that phase.

Coming from 4th ed guard to 9th ed guard, Scotsman's comment about detachments seems very on point. Want to run a company commander and 2 platoon commanders, each with a command squad? Congratulations, you've eaten 5 elite slots.
:O

But all your guys can now run faster than their Chimeras can drive.
o.O

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I really disagree that Tau should get a melee capable unit of any type.

Apologies if this comes across as a bit strong, but weakness to melee isn’t a design oversight - its a deliberate choice.

Tau should suffer in HTH. That’s their intended weakness. Nothing should mitigate that beyond sensible application of firepower to stop the opponent getting into HTH.

This is kinda a trigger point for me, as ever since Tau were released, I’ve seen requests for them to get HTH oriented suits. It’s nothing against posters in this thread, or even this forum

I agree with this message.

Orders are, as they stand, an awful system. They're too clunky and for what is supposed to be the "iconic mechanic" of the army?

They're too restrictive.

Have proposed before, will propose again:
Orders become a more 'interactive' system for the players. Give them a tiered Order system that affects different elements of the army in different ways.

HQ level Commanders have an army-wide Order. And yes, that does include vehicles and infantry that have the <Regiment> or <Militarum Tempestus> keywords. Changing the Order from your Commander(limit 1 per detachment, Order only affects the Detachment) takes a turn to come into effect.

Orders at this level would be things that bolster your movement, defense, or damage capabilities when within a certain distance of objectives on the game board.

Then you have the next level of Orders. These come from the Elite/Fast Attack/Heavy Support level Officers.

And yes, you read that correctly. An Elite level Officer would be something like a Platoon Commander while Fast Attack would have a Sentinel-based Officer, and Heavy Support would get the Master of Ordnance who would affect anything with the "Artillery" or "Heavy Weapon team" keywords.

Their Orders would be things that bolster Infantry/Veteran/Conscript Squads for the Elite Officer, Sentinel Officer would bolster Sentinel Squads and have Orders that could get addressed to Indirect Fire weapon equipped models or allow for alternate deployment shenanigans, and the Master of Ordnance would generally just let your big guns go pewpew better.
These Orders would be changeable turn by turn with no delay, but they also would not be as swing-y as the HQ levels. They would affect units within a specific radius of the issuing Officer or vox-castered units/vehicles if the Officer has used a vox to issue the Order.

Then the last set of Orders apply to squads that have a squad leader or a vox-caster within them. They're another turn by turn with no delay, but they only affect that squad and they tend towards being finite perks.

I agree that Tau should not have melee units, but I also think it is mandatory to participate in h2h in 9th ed missions and making tau worthless in the fight phase means to be useful they need to either:

1) kill you before you can get to melee (gakky, uninteractive)

2) be capable of getting oit of melee with no penalty (gakky, uninteractive)

Allowing them to enter melee and fire guns (I would also add that ability as an alternative effect that the Fireblade has on Breachers) would resolve the longstanding "one phase army" problem.

....id also add "non psychic psychic powers" to several factions to expand the use of the psychic phase. Perfect for ethereals, chaplains, dark apostles, ministorum proests, crypteks, etc.

Make them less potent generally, undeniable, also no perils, also cant deny themselves obviously. Call them "invocations."

"No melee units for T'au, the multi-xeno coalition empire of diversity" seems like an odd sacred cow to me, and probably always will be.

"No melee units for T'au Fire Caste" makes much more sense as a line to draw, if you must. They're the ones with the aversion to melee, not the Kroot, the Vespid, or any of the other member species that can be convinced or coerced into being part of the T'au Empire.

CQC is a reality of 9th edition, and frankly, of the WH40k universe itself. I think viable melee Kroot units should exist, because they absolutely do in the fluff. The T'au should also have ways for pure Fire Caste forces to handle CQC that doesn't involve a Shas'ui swinging a power katana, Shas'la no'body busting out gun fu that eldar would envy, or Krooty McExpendable's body being used as cover while Krooty is still alive, because not everyone wants to field our cheeky beaky allies and the T'au exist as a successful Empire in the face of horrifying melee threats even when Kroot meatshields are nowhere nearby to be found.

I'd rather see the diversity of the T'au Coalition be showcased than All Battlesuits All The Time, personally. As such, my suggestions for future buffs would not only focus on adding new synergies with non-tau forces, but would also explicitly include some melee units from those vassal races, including but not limited to Kroot.

(It should be obvious I'm a big fan of Kroot.)

But I also think battlesuit heavy, and pure T'au Caste armies, should be viable within the context of 9th Edition and its CQC realities. I think the army should be designed around existing as an adaptive-to-new-circumstances prefers-to-shoot-them entity in a universe where there's consistently a lot of folks who reeeeeeeally want to gut you eye to eye.

Speaking specifically of Markerlights, they should be like Xenos Ancillaries - a nice benefit to have, but not necessary to function nor assumed to be included. That should be true until and unless Markerlights are either so ubiquitous or on such diverse and durable platforms that removing Markerlight support for practically any non-gimmick army is neither impossible nor a walk in the park (It's currently the latter).

But that doesn't get to the heart of it. Not really. What makes the T'au Empire forces unique?

When I got into the T'au in 4th edition, the T'au were notorious for being less die-hard about objectives during battle, preferring retreats, feints, ambushes, traps, and more while giving ground temporarily as a way to overexpose the encroaching force. They're as disruptive to enemy plans as possible, prone to poking and prodding until weak points can be found and exploited.

Xenos Ancillaries can and have been used by the T'au Empire to hold ground traditionally. It's been done, they do it, no problems there. It's been done, they do it, so it should be viable on the tabletop, too - that's a current problem.

But pure Fire Caste? They need ways to score points that doesn't just involve overwhelming firepower (itself unbalancing in unfun ways) - the game is already at the saturation point for overwhelming firepower in glass cannons. They need ways to bypass their natural limitations when it comes to scoring objective-holding points (i.e. most game points) that revolve around them either Giving Ground For the Greater Good as a setup for a Kauyon AND/OR using Mobility to Manage Force Multiplication as a setup for a Mont'ka.

EDIT: ACTUAL SUGGESTIONS FOUND BELOW

For the first, something like "score additional normal points this round if you retake control over an Objective you previously had Objective Secured models near" seems like it could help. It mitigates the pain of retreat-oriented mechanics/decisions built into the fluff of Kauyon a bit, and it is certainly no freebie - the T'au would still need to actually re-take the objective before they can get the bonus. This is off the cuff, so specific numbers are probably way off.

For the second, something that affects Secondary objectives (making it easier to score points based on killing things, performing tasks and still shooting, etc.) seems like it would be the best path. Mont'ka is all about suddenly striking a weak point to disrupt the enemy force for the Greater Good of the overall battle, so Bring It Down and its ilk might give up points easier when performed by pure T'au forces. Again, entirely off the cuff, so what boosts it should give can be limited.

But whatever GW does, whatever GW decides... I hope with all heart that GW lets the T'au play objectives without being comparatively bound, gagged, hung upside-down, and stabbed twice in the kidney.

Frankly, Tau Pulse Carbines could be made to function as Pistols and the world would likely be fine.

I guess I'm really going to upset people, because I think Fire Warriors should be better in assault, never mind Crisis Suits. Its boring perhaps - buts easier than introducing some sort of mechanic which potentially breaks the game in a highly undesirable way.

You shouldn't - to my mind at least - just go "crisis suits have jump shoot jump again, use it" because it means you *have* to have Crisis Suits. And I don't think any faction should *have* to take a unit. Every unit could have it - but that seems like opening all kinds of abuse.

The alternative, echoing above, is Tau have enough shooting to just gun down anyone who has the temerity to wander on objectives. Which is also likely to just be obnoxious.

The thing is, there are degrees. Or put another way, there is *bad at assault* - and then there is Tau. I'm not saying they should be gun-toting Genestealers - but for 9 points, a Fire Warrior *probably* shouldn't be quite significantly worse in assault than a 5.5 point Guardsman. A Crisis Suit costing 40-70 points *probably* should have more than 2 WS 5+ S5 AP- attacks.

As an example, the new Kabalite Warriors - ignoring any other buffs, and the fact they are a point cheaper, are 4 times as effective in close combat as Fire Warriors. That's not a small amount.

Really though, GW will almost certainly go with points changes and a much more interactive suite of rules than Market Lights and Kauyon/Montka. Which will probably lean more into "gun them down before they get to score" - but in win percentage terms it may be enough.

I'd say sure TAU are bad at assault but they probably have some friends who are passible at it. Kroot come to mind, hell add 3 or new minor xenos units to their army or revamp the existing ones. Give them skirmishers who can punch in melee. Tau shouldn't have units that are out punching 20 genestealers or a bunch of Dark Angels Deathwing knights, they should shoot those guys, but they definitely have guys who can fight off a couple space marines or other units with middling CC capacity.

I'm fine with having my 5 kommandoes I throw out to secure far off objectives get absolutely trashed by a bunch of Kroot, thematically anyway. Give Kroot genuine CC weaponry, or at least give those rifles a bit more omph in CC.

Another way would be a rule to Breachers to let them shoot in CC, while giving Fire Warriors pistols. Specialist training for Breacher teams and then standard issue solutions for the strike teams. Tau kinda suck now, and as much as I resented them in 7th, they don't need to "suffer" bad editions.

One way would be a budget anti elite melee unit vespid style and kroot being an anti horde melee unit.

From 6th on guard have just simply never had a viable way of advancing up the table without drastically over exposing themselves. Why would I ever advance guardsmen toward an objective? They're just going to get mowed down out of cover, or charged. They don't have the damage to take out an enemy. All they're good for is sitting there and being bubble shields, or holding onto objectives.

vehicles can shoot across the whole battlefield, and there is almost always SOMETHING in los.

I get no statistical benefit for flanking an enemy either.

If i charge something i'm just going to get destroyed.



The playstyle is sit back and stand there ewth everything until your vehicles kill everything, then send the meatshields in to the objective. Talk about boring and uninspired. Where are the overlapping layers of fire as a platoon leap frogs onto a position?

 Sledgehammer wrote:
From 6th on guard have just simply never had a viable way of advancing up the table without drastically over exposing themselves. Why would I ever advance guardsmen toward an objective? They're just going to get mowed down out of cover, or charged. They don't have the damage to take out an enemy. All they're good for is sitting there and being bubble shields, or holding onto objectives.

Valkyrie drop plasma spam was real nasty in 8th index times and very aggressive. Catachan did not become the best regiment in 8th by sitting back. Bullgryn was also amazing in ITC because of enclosed ruins and the popularity of using two L ruins to block LOS. You are just wrong AM are a pts-update from regaining dominance, they have all the 9e rules tools they need.

Catachan did become the best because it did stay back. STR 4 does really make some difference in melee taking charges and Brutal Strength also just allows them to damage well. Furthermore Guard were never really dominant in 8th if not for a very short while.

One regiment being good if not better than near all of the other regiments does not help the army in the long run.

While minor and seems to be generally considered not worth it, I would like the chimera command vehicle to become a permanent upgrade (ie Commissar Tank) instead of the single turn use. I have a custom M577 style chimera that I want to use as such again.

 Salted Diamond wrote:
While minor and seems to be generally considered not worth it, I would like the chimera command vehicle to become a permanent upgrade (ie Commissar Tank) instead of the single turn use. I have a custom M577 style chimera that I want to use as such again.

The pathetic part is that it used to just be a part of the Chimera's rules. They clearly never removed it from the points cost either.

 BlackoCatto wrote:
Catachan did become the best because it did stay back. STR 4 does really make some difference in melee taking charges and Brutal Strength also just allows them to damage well. Furthermore Guard were never really dominant in 8th if not for a very short while.

Guard were pretty dominant in 8th from index era up until a few codexes after their codex. Their codex blew the marine, GK, necron, Admech, and eldar 'dex out of the water, (they were already winning events fairly conssitently even index vs codex) and they got the first 'dex with non copy/pasted traits.