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Im getting into the lore of 40k and it seems to be many of the space-marine navies are WAY more important than their ground based/planet based war capabilities, Things like the navies of the Ultra-Marines and the Imperial Fists, comes to mind
   
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technically, the fleets of the space marines are supposed to be focused purely on a planetary assault role of delivering the marines onboard to the planet and supporting. this is supposed to be part of the fundamental division of powers established after the Horus Heresy, as the Imperial navy is supposed to be the force that can fight for and control space.


However, some of the SM fanboys keep forgetting that the rest of the imperial military is actually capable of winning battles without marines present, and thus most of the fluff involving the marine fleets have them saving the day as the navy crumbles in the face of whoever is the enemy today.

that said, the marine ships are not to be sniffed at, their strike cruisers are vicious light cruisers and their battle barges are all up battleships, with access to vastly experience marine captains, and space marines boarding teams to really screw with the enemy at point blank. Ship for ship, they are a match for imperial navy equivalents, and a fleet of them is as dangerous as the same size force form any other power. its just they tend to only have maybe a dozen major warships per chapter (unless they are the Black Templars, but thats another story), whereas the Imperial Navy routinely has 20-50 ships of similar size in any given sector.

I think the big difference is that the marines always have their naval support on hand as its their deployment system, and only get deploy Things Are Not Going Well, whereas the Guard doesn't, and the majority of the imperial navy is tied down in convoy escorts, standing patrols, and other boring routine work that the marines are too important for.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
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Longtime Dakkanaut





The rock is a massive fortress that imagine is capable of winning almost any naval conflict, but I’ve never heard of it used in that way.

I think different chapters have significantly different capabilities depending if they are based on a world or in a mobile fleet.

Some chapters might not have any capability at all to transport themselves or conduct naval
Battles
   
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Jealous that Horus is Warmaster





Unless a chapter got super unlucky or has just come out of a huge conflict, the chances of them having no fleet whatsoever are very thin. Astartes are aggressive, not defensive, some might be good at defense but their primary mission is rapid deployment to the worst conflict zones. Having no fleet would make a chapter useless.

An Astartes fleet mustering more than a couple of ships at a time is very rare and only major conflicts will see the whole fleet deployed.
As for specific examples, the Ultramarines have a huge fleet because they are the regents of Ultramar, the 500 worlds. They have support from local Navy and Astartes chapters but they are one of the most important forces the Imperium commands and their ability to defend Ultramar and still send strike forces to the rest of the Imperium reflects their vast amount of support assets. AFAIK, the Fists don't so much have a larger than average fleet but the Phalanx being a colossal star fort that also serves as their primary fortress-monastery buffs their power considerably. Plus, being the only Astartes chapter to have a permanent Terran garrison probably gives you some pull.
   
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Canada

mrFickle wrote:
The rock is a massive fortress that imagine is capable of winning almost any naval conflict, but I’ve never heard of it used in that way.

I think different chapters have significantly different capabilities depending if they are based on a world or in a mobile fleet.

Some chapters might not have any capability at all to transport themselves or conduct naval
Battles


The Dark Angels 6th Edition Codex has a brief account of the Battle of Midpoint where the Rock and the Dark Angel's "Swordfleet" win a void battle against the Eldar. The firepower of the Rock is reported to have annihilated the Eldar capital ship and another half-dozen ships. Take that tricksy Xenos...

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






The main difference is in scale.

An Imperial Navy Battlefleet might contain dozens upon dozens of ships, perhaps even hundreds, all split up into sub-fleets.

They have Battleships, Grand Cruisers, Battle Cruisers, Cruisers, Frigates, Destroyers etc. Multiple different configurations and classes.

These fleets are the backbone of the Imperial naval assets.

Chapter Fleets however tend to be more specialised, centred around Battlebarges (typically the largest class, barring First Founding Chapters), Strike Cruisers, and support Frigates and Destroyers.

They lack the tactical versatility of the Imperial Navy, and as others have said that is very much by design, post-Heresy.

Chapter Fleets are less at home in deep space engagements, intended as they are for planetary strikes. They tend to lack much in the way of long range firepower, instead being more suited to close range brawls, where they can smash through pretty much anything.

They less favour traditional Naval tactics in favour of boarding actions, where a couple of squads of Astartes can gut a bridge or Enginarium in minutes, and barring deliberate sabotage the enemy ship is otherwise left whole - powerless and leaderless, allowing the Strike Cruisers and Battlebarges to deploy their complement of Astartes and their war machines planetside unmolested.

For boarding actions, they tend to be well stocked with Thunderhawks, Teleportariums and Boarding Torpdeos. These are pretty much unique to Astartes fleets.

Now, there are of course entirely fleet based Chapters, and these may demonstrate a wider variety of ships. But even so, in terms of sheer size, they remain tiny compared to the Imperial Navy proper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the Star Wars Imperial Navy?

40K massively out ranges them. Remember, in BFG the models are highly representative. The actual true scale would see the largest ship around the size of the flying stand’s tip.

That’s a range far beyond anything we see in Star Wars canon.

In reality, an Imperium Broadside would look more like BSG’s flak screen. They’re area saturation weapons, rather than precision shots.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/14 18:04:46


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The Rock outclasses nearly every other Imperial ship IMO.
It's a huge chunk of old Caliban that they put buildings and guns on. It's not just a battle station like the Phalanx or the Ramilies starbases, it's a fully mobile homeworld.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/14 18:28:09


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
An Imperial Navy Battlefleet might contain dozens upon dozens of ships, perhaps even hundreds, all split up into sub-fleets.

They have Battleships, Grand Cruisers, Battle Cruisers, Cruisers, Frigates, Destroyers etc. Multiple different configurations and classes.

Funnily enough, SM fleets have these too. Yes, they are rare, but SM often capture renegade or chaos ships, clean them, and press them into service. For one, Astral Claws had literally all the classes above in their chapter fleet, because their sector of space was full of pirates giving them plenty of opportunities for capture. Every fleet based chapter uses it as one of the main methods of expansion, in fact.

That’s a range far beyond anything we see in Star Wars canon.

Um, no. In SW universe, even light turbolaser has a range of 10 light minutes. When you compare it to pitiful ~10.000 km range of BFG guns it becomes clear one side is drastically outmatched, and it's not SW. Hint - it's the side that thinks putting melee weapons on ships is effective
   
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Where are you getting the idea that Turbo Lasers have that big a range? Every instance of battles between starships in SW have been "close" and the only info I can find on ranges states that the guns on an ISD-1 had an effective range of 1.2km.

As for the effectiveness of Ursus Claws, the World Eaters would like a word. They were dangerous weapons yes but highly effective in harpooning a ship to keep it either within boarding range or for broadsides. An SM strike cruiser will usually maintain at least half a company of Astartes who will often carry out boarding actions on enemy ships.
   
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BFG spatial scale is about 1cm = 1,000 km.

So the Imperium's long range guns reach out to 60cm or 60,000 km. The Nova Cannons reach to 150cm or 150,000 km.
   
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 Gert wrote:
Where are you getting the idea that Turbo Lasers have that big a range? Every instance of battles between starships in SW have been "close" and the only info I can find on ranges states that the guns on an ISD-1 had an effective range of 1.2km.

As for the effectiveness of Ursus Claws, the World Eaters would like a word. They were dangerous weapons yes but highly effective in harpooning a ship to keep it either within boarding range or for broadsides. An SM strike cruiser will usually maintain at least half a company of Astartes who will often carry out boarding actions on enemy ships.


This.

According to Wookieepedia, the Heavy Turbo Laser mounted on the Imperial 1-Class Star Destroyer has a 15km effective range, and a 100km maximum range in Legends, with no info for the current canon.

That’s...pretty piddling, no?

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There is no way that makes any kind of sense I love sci fi physics

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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Why would a laser have a range? Surely in the vacuum of space it would just keep going.
   
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mrFickle wrote:
Why would a laser have a range? Surely in the vacuum of space it would just keep going.


Blaster weapons aren't lasers (naming conventions notwithstanding).
   
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Dorset, England

mrFickle wrote:
Why would a laser have a range? Surely in the vacuum of space it would just keep going.

Space isn't a complete vacuum so the laser beam would still lose energy.
I'd also expect the laser beam to spread out over time, gradually diffusing its energy, just because shooting the photons exactly straight would be nigh on impossible and photons are still affected by gravity.
   
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Indeed. They’re energised gas, rather than light, so closer to Plasma.

This is of course something Trek Nerds always hand wave away, because apparently lasers can’t even bother the D’s navigational shields

Wookieepedia wrote: Instead of firing a coherent beam of light like the archaic laser, the blaster fired a compressed, focused, high-energy particle-beam that was very destructive, commonly referred to as a "bolt." Generating the bolt relied on two components: a gas cartridge filled with an energy-rich blaster gas (typically Tibanna) and a power pack. When the blaster was fired, a small amount of gas moved from the cartridge through the Heter valve into the gas conversion enabler chamber, commonly called the XCiter. In this chamber, the power pack energized the gas, before it passed into the actuating blaster module, where the now extremely high-energy gas was transformed into a compressed beam of intense energy particles, coupled with intense light. The particle beam was then focused through a prismatic crystal or a similar device, which generated a deadly high-energy particle beam, fired from the emitter nozzle as a bolt of glowing energy. The color of the bolt depended on the gas used and the type of focusing device, and could vary from red to blue to orange to white.[2][3]

A side effect of firing blasters was the gas conversion enabler heating up as gas was energized by the power pack, which could cause blasters to overheat, sometimes to the point of destruction. Additionally, a small amount of ozone was emitted as a trace product of the bolt emerging from the emitter nozzle, lending blaster bolts a distinctive smell that Han Solo characterized as being like burnt meat.[4]

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 Kroem wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
Why would a laser have a range? Surely in the vacuum of space it would just keep going.

Space isn't a complete vacuum so the laser beam would still lose energy.
I'd also expect the laser beam to spread out over time, gradually diffusing its energy, just because shooting the photons exactly straight would be nigh on impossible and photons are still affected by gravity.


Sure they are subject to forces and any matter hey encounter but any laser that is powerful enough to damage even an x wing would have enough energy to travel for many light years.

Even if it’s energised gas it should have an incredible range in space. Thing don’t just stop unless acted upon by another force.
   
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mrFickle wrote:

Sure they are subject to forces and any matter hey encounter but any laser that is powerful enough to damage even an x wing would have enough energy to travel for many light years.

Even if it’s energised gas it should have an incredible range in space. Thing don’t just stop unless acted upon by another force.


Again, blaster weapons arent laser weapons, and they most certainly are not traveling at near-liminal speeds. Projectile velocity is one of two major components to their lack of range. The second is the fact that bolts lose coherency in flight. The longer they go without impacting a target, the less focused and energized they become, to the point where they're literally just an inert gas cloud tumbling through the void.
   
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If memory serves, theirs magnetic stuff going on in the barrel, which aids in cohesion. The longer the barrel, the longer the range.

Plus, most ships in Star Wars are intended for planetary sieges, rather than deep space combat, which is a result of hyper lanes. See, you can’t just go anywhere in hyperspace, you need to follow plotted lanes.

As a result, fleets meeting far away from a planet is relatively rare, because they just don’t appear there terribly often.

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...why are we dragging the poor Star Wars into it all? It's a setting designed to have WW2-style dogfights in space, that's all there is to it. Just like BFG (and thus all of 40k space-related canon) is designed to have point-blank pre-dreadnought era battles. Neither operates in relation to anything remotely like real world physics and logic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/16 16:30:40


 
   
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Ibris dared to besmirch the glorious Ursus Claw and was righteously smitten for their apostasy. Also said some bunk about Turbo Lasers having insane ranges.
   
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Cronch wrote:
...why are we dragging the poor Star Wars into it all? It's a setting designed to have WW2-style dogfights in space, that's all there is to it. Just like BFG (and thus all of 40k space-related canon) is designed to have point-blank pre-dreadnought era battles. Neither operates in relation to anything remotely like real world physics and logic.


Nothing about BFG is point blank range.

The model scale is representative. Their actual scale is meant to be around the size of the tip of the flying stand - with the planets being the only things as proper scale.

That makes for thousands of miles between the ships, reducing to maybe a few hundred when in base to base.

Hence why their firepower would be less the neat combat of Star Wars, and more the glorious flak screen mess of BSG. They’re area saturation weapons, not precision.

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Back to the original point :-p. The first time the space marine fleet rules appeared (alongside it's fluff) in WD for BFG, it claimed that a normal chapter (so I imagine discounting Ultramarines, Black Templar, Space Wolves and entierly fleet based chapters) had a maximum of 3 Battle Barges, 10 Strike Cruisers and all the supporting escort squadrons, which themselves would probably be 3-6 escort ships per Barge or Cruiser.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/17 14:25:36


 
   
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I think GW has gone for a more ambiguous approach on chapter fleet strength since BFG came out. I would say that those numbers would represent a minimum for a standard codex chapter fresh out the gate.
   
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Bath

 Gert wrote:
I think GW has gone for a more ambiguous approach on chapter fleet strength since BFG came out. I would say that those numbers would represent a minimum for a standard codex chapter fresh out the gate.


GW has been a lot more ambiguous on a lot of lore elements in the last decade or so, i feel.

However, I don't think a single codex chapter can really field many more warships than those numbers, simply because they'd run out of marines to use with them pretty dang quick. Those 3 barges and 10 cruisers have a lift capacity of over 20 companies*, or twice the total chapter strength. Sure, in an emergency a chapter could put them all in space with like a half-company each, but still, its clear they couldn't actually man many more than that.

Space marines really are not suppose to be naval powers, they are a ground combat force with organic naval support. As i said, they are quite good at fighting in space, but thats becuase they are good at fighting, full stop. for any serious naval campaign they would be operating in concert with the Imperial Navy, which would be providing the majority of the hulls used, and then punch out a few key targets to swing the campaign, then leave the Navy and Guard to do the legwork and mopping up, and go sort the next crisis in the neighbouring sector. Plus, 3 battleships and 10 cruisers is a battlefleet as strong as anything the imperial navy can concentrate on any single objective, barring truly exceptional events like the Black Crusades. it is NOT a force to be sniffed at.


*a strike cruiser has a nominal capacity of 1 company, but that seem to seem "one company battlegroup" with all the attachments like scouts, veterans and termies, bikes and speeders, etc. i'd assume the "3 companies" on a battle barge are also over strength.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/03/17 17:01:58


Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
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1000 pts
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




xerxeskingofking wrote:

However, I don't think a single codex chapter can really field many more warships than those numbers, simply because they'd run out of marines to use with them pretty dang quick. Those 3 barges and 10 cruisers have a lift capacity of over 20 companies*, or twice the total chapter strength. Sure, in an emergency a chapter could put them all in space with like a half-company each, but still, its clear they couldn't actually man many more than that.


Marines don't "man" their warships. They command them, they launch boarding actions from them, and in some cases will live on them (in the case of things like Fleet-based Chapters) but the overwhelming proportion of beings on a Marine vessel are servitors or chapter serfs.

The actual personnel drain on Astartes from their void ships is negligible, and the population said drain affects is explicitly one that the Codex doesn't restrict. The overwhelming barriers to expansive Marine fleets are industrial capacity, and the rest of the Imperium throwing a fit when you show up with more ships than you're supposed to (as long as you're not one of those fancy plot armored "Chapters" that trundle around at near-Legion strength).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/17 17:27:22


 
   
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Bath

Sterling191 wrote:
xerxeskingofking wrote:

However, I don't think a single codex chapter can really field many more warships than those numbers, simply because they'd run out of marines to use with them pretty dang quick. Those 3 barges and 10 cruisers have a lift capacity of over 20 companies*, or twice the total chapter strength. Sure, in an emergency a chapter could put them all in space with like a half-company each, but still, its clear they couldn't actually man many more than that.


Marines don't "man" their warships. They command them, they launch boarding actions from them, and in some cases will live on them (in the case of things like Fleet-based Chapters) but the overwhelming proportion of beings on a Marine vessel are servitors or chapter serfs.


I know that, my point was that in a fight of two or more multi-kilometre beasts of steel (ie a naval battle), even someone as capable as space marines are not going to have a serious effect in less than half-company strength. a hit and run teleport attack or a boarding action (the things that marine fleets got bonuses for in BFG) isnt just one marine getting sent over doomstyle and wrecking havoc like its a FPS. its a co-ordinated attack by mutiple squads of marines, or several companies of naval armsmen supporting several squads of marines.

thus, their is a limit to how many ships you can spread your marines over before they are so spread out as to not be effective, and trying to keep much more than the 10-15 captial ships the BFG lore describes could only really be done by sacrificing the core ground assault capability that is the raison d'etre of the Space Marines in the first place.


and, again, i must stress that a force of 10-15 capital ships is very much a powerful force able to really screw with just about anyone. according to the bfg era lore, thats basically is as much as most sector fleets could scrounge together for a major fleet battle, given the myriad of standing commitments the navy has to permanent defensive patrols, convoy escorts, flank protection, etc.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/17 17:37:20


Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
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1000 pts
 
   
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If I were a Space Marine chapter master with a limit on how many ships I could operate, I would simply ignore the Codex Astartes and make more Space Marines.....wait no.
   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Cronch wrote:
...why are we dragging the poor Star Wars into it all? It's a setting designed to have WW2-style dogfights in space, that's all there is to it. Just like BFG (and thus all of 40k space-related canon) is designed to have point-blank pre-dreadnought era battles. Neither operates in relation to anything remotely like real world physics and logic.


Nothing about BFG is point blank range.

The model scale is representative. Their actual scale is meant to be around the size of the tip of the flying stand - with the planets being the only things as proper scale.

That makes for thousands of miles between the ships, reducing to maybe a few hundred when in base to base.

Hence why their firepower would be less the neat combat of Star Wars, and more the glorious flak screen mess of BSG. They’re area saturation weapons, not precision.

Thousands of miles IS point blank in most mil-scifi that focuses on space combat. Honorverse has the lasers effective range at around 1 million kilometers (half that against fully shielded target). Manticore missiles had 15 million km range at full 96k G acceleration and 60 million km at half acceleration and that setting is conservative in it's ranges and power.
   
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Indeed. Effective range of space combat should be more about the effectiveness of the targeting system to predict where to put the laser beam so that the target runs into it in a few seconds' time rather than the weapon losing impact over distance.

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