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Assume a unit that are under the effect of both a "fight first" rule, and a "fight last" rule, and that unit has made a charge this turn. What segment do they fight in?
(This happened to a unit of Emperor's Children terminators, cursed with the DA psychic power Mind Worm).

I find two plausible interpretations:

A - The "fight first" rule (being Emperor's Children) is cancelled by the "fight last" rule (Mind Worm). So the unit is currently under no such effects. So they default to the standard rules of fighting first because they have charged.

B - Having charged is just another "fight first" rule, and both "fight first" rules (having charged and being Emperor's Children) are cancelled by the "fight last" rule (Mind Worm). So the unit defaults to fighting in the "normal" segment.

Feel free to explain your opinion and refer to rulebooks, FAQs or other guides!
Cheers!

BRB rare rule "Always fight first/last"
"If a unit is under the effects of both a rule that always lets it fight first in the Fight phase, and a rule that says it cannot be selected to fight until after all other units have done so, it instead fights as if neither rule is affecting it"

I would lean towards option A. The fight phase says that "Units that made a charge move this turn fight before all other units", which, by definition, is *not* a rule that always lets it fight first. So while the EC fight first and DA Mindworm cancel each other out, that leaves the charge move rule able to function normally.

JakeSiren wrote:
BRB rare rule "Always fight first/last"
"If a unit is under the effects of both a rule that always lets it fight first in the Fight phase, and a rule that says it cannot be selected to fight until after all other units have done so, it instead fights as if neither rule is affecting it"

I would lean towards option A. The fight phase says that "Units that made a charge move this turn fight before all other units", which, by definition, is *not* a rule that always lets it fight first. So while the EC fight first and DA Mindworm cancel each other out, that leaves the charge move rule able to function normally.

Unfortunately, as described in the Charge section, making a Charge actually temporarily places the "fights first" rule onto the Charging unit, so it would be cancelled by the "fights last" rule.

CHARGING UNITS FIGHT FIRST
Units that made a charge move this turn fight first in the Fight phase. This means that units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move have fought.

Units that made a charge move this turn fight before all other units.

I am not sure how the interplay works of having an innate "fights first" and the bonus Charge "fights first" works with a single instance of "fights last". It is possible that it stacks invisibly like in most dice rolls and the extra only drops off after the roll has been completed even if it has no effect on the roll. It is equally possible that the second instance of "fights first" simply never applies because the unit already had an instance of "fights first".

If it stacks invisibly, then the "fights last" rule cancels with the innate "fights first" rule, leaving the model with the second "fights first" rule from the Charge. That would then cause it to "fight first" as normal.

If it is not applied due to the previous instance of the "fights first" rule, then the innate "fights first" cancels with the "fights last" and the model fights normally.

Either way, unless there are somehow two sources of "fights last" applying onto the unit, it is not under consideration that it will "fight last".

That's a fair point, but as you point out, it temporarily places the charging unit into the "fights first" bracket rather than always as the rare rule mentions for the ability cancellation.

But beyond those semantic acrobatics, I realised since initially posting that the "Charging units fight first" isn't even an ability. So if you have a fights first ability vs a fights last ability, they cancel each other out and you are left with the core rule of "Charging units fight first"

JakeSiren wrote:
That's a fair point, but as you point out, it temporarily places the charging unit into the "fights first" bracket rather than always as the rare rule mentions for the ability cancellation.

But beyond those semantic acrobatics, I realised since initially posting that the "Charging units fight first" isn't even an ability. So if you have a fights first ability vs a fights last ability, they cancel each other out and you are left with the core rule of "Charging units fight first"

That's what I believe is the case, though if it is that means that even if you were struck by a "fights last" ability, the charging unit still fights before units that did not charge. It's a bit unclear since I can't recall any specific instance referring to "fights first" or "fights last" actually being abilities as opposed to modifiers put on by abilities or effects. If you find one, that would be good for settling this definitively.

JakeSiren wrote:
That's a fair point, but as you point out, it temporarily places the charging unit into the "fights first" bracket rather than always as the rare rule mentions for the ability cancellation.

You don't need to be always under the effect of the rule. You need to be "under the effects of... a rule that always lets it fight first in the Fight phase" So, there are two things here: it has to be under the effect of the rule, and the rule has to always let if fight first. Charging is a rule which always lets a unit which charged fight first. You are not always under the effect of it but when you are then you always fight first. If you charged, therefore, you are under the effect of a rule that always lets you fight first. When you did not charge you are not under the effect of that rule.
The argument conflates "always under the effect of a rule which..." and "under the effect of a rule which always..."

But beyond those semantic acrobatics, I realised since initially posting that the "Charging units fight first" isn't even an ability. So if you have a fights first ability vs a fights last ability, they cancel each other out and you are left with the core rule of "Charging units fight first"

Doesn't need to be an ability, merely a rule.

Whether *everything* is cancelled I am unsure. The wording of the rule suggests they cancel individually: the use of "neither" in "it instead fights as if neither rule is affecting it" means not one nor the other, limiting you to two such rules.

Recently I sent an email to the people who run the goonhammer site. They have a flowchart of when people act in the fight phase. I asked almost the exact same question and they said that the charge rule still applies since the BRB says the other rules are ignored (note not negated but ignored).

So you would ignore the fight first ability of the Emp's Child and the mind worm effect leaving the model to use the normal sequence of events (the charging unit fights before the target unit barring other things happening like counter charge).

That's great, but goonhammer aren't an official source.

Option A. All the time.

Charging only allows you to fight first on the turn you charge.

Thus rules for charging are not a rule/rules 'that allows a unit to always fight fight first, even if they didn't make a charge move that turn' (Always Fight First/Last pg361).

In the event that a unit is under the affect of rules that always lets it fight first (of which charging is not), and last then it fights as if neither rull affects it. (pg 362)

So if a unit affected by both 'alway fight first' and 'always fight last' charged then if fights 'first' otherwise (i.e. on any turn it doesn't charge) it fights after units who 'fight first', and before any units that 'fight last'.

Charging only allows you to fight first on the turn you charge.

Thus rules for charging are not a rule/rules 'that allows a unit to always fight fight first, even if they didn't make a charge move that turn' (Always Fight First/Last pg361).

Yes it is. You conflate "always under the effect of a rule which..." and "under the effect of a rule which always...". When under the effect of the charging rule you do always fight first, and that is what it is looking for.

My brain hurts

righty...
Rare Rules - Always Fight First/Last
pg 361
"Some rules allow a unit from your army to always fight first in the Fight Phase, even if they didn't make a charge move this turn"
pg 362
"If a unit is under the affects of a rules that always lets it fight first in the Fight Phase, and a rules that says it cannont be selected to fight until all other units have done so, it insteads fights as if neither rule is affecting it"

The very nature of charging being conditional (requirement to have made a charge move) and limited (to the turn in which the unit charged) means that charging doesn't statify the requirements to be an 'Always fight first' rule.

Thus if a unit is under the affects of an 'always strikes last' rule it will always strike last (i.e. even if it charged) unless that unit is also under the affects of a rule that always (i.e. no charging required) lets it strike first.

In the later situation the unit strikes as if neither of the alway strikes first or always strike last rules apply so the unit fights at the 'normal' timing for a unit.

This will be in 'Unit Charged/ Always Strikes First' timing if the unit charged, or 'non-charging, non-fight last' units if the unit didn't charge.

As above


They are not always allowed to fight first. They can in fact only fights first the turn they charged, and the second part of the rule - even if - makes it clear that charging is not considered to be an always ... rule.

FF = fight first FL = FIght Last
(Priority order Resolve 1's before 2's and 2's before 3's) (If multiple units1,3 players alternate starting with the player whose turn it is 2's alternate starting with the player whose turn it isn't.)


Unit A FF1 UNIT B FF1 (Player turn it is chooses first)

Unit A FF1 Unit B2 ( Single FF unit goes first)

Unit A FF1 Unit B FF,FL2 ( Single FF unit goes first)

Unit A2 Unit B FL3 ( The unit without FL goes first)

Unit A FL3 unit B FL3 (Players turn it is chooses first

Unit A2 Unit B2 (Player whose turn it isn't chooses)

Unit A2 Unit B FF, FL2 (Player whose turn it isnt chooses)

Unit A2 Unit B FL3 ( The unit without FL goes first)

Unit A FL3 unit B FL3 (Players turn it is chooses first)


Slightly ambiguous but RAW

Unit A FF1, Unit B FF,FF,FL2 (Single FF goes first as if a unit has both rules it fights as if affected by neither)

Unit A2, Unit B FF,FF,FL2 (Player whose turn it isn't chooses as if a unit has both rules it fights as if affected by neither)

Unit A FL3, Unit B FF,FF,FL2 (Unit B fights first as it counts as not being affected by either rule)

Chargeing has the same weight as another fight first rule
You cant interrupt with a unit affected by an FL unless it is also affected by an FF rule as Counteroffensive requires a unit to be eligible and you are not eligible due to the wording of FL rules states you are not eligible until all other units have fought

U02dah4 wrote:
FF = fight first FL = FIght Last
Chargeing has the same weight as another fight first rule

Gotta really disagree here. Yes, charging and always fight first will resolve at the same time in the absence of any always fight last affects, however the two interact with always fight last very differently.

The rules for Always strikes First/ Last (pg362) specify that a unit under the affects of always fight first and always fight last fight fights as if neither rules applies to it.

As previously demonstrated charging is a fight first affect. but not an always fight first affect.

This gives you 8 possible combinations of Charged/Always Fight First/Always Fight Last.

As a unit must either have charged or be engaged in the fight around I shall label these Charged/Engaged, and add '-AFF' (Always Fight First) and/or '-AFL' (Always Fight Last).

Charged - Fights First
Charged-AFF - Fights First
Charged-AFL - Fights Last - Whilst the unit charged, charging is not an always fight first affect, so the two affects (chargings and AFL) do not cancel. With two affects, A) allows the units to fight first, and B) Always make the unit Fight Last, the The Always bit about Always Strikes Last takes precedence.
Charged-AFF-AFL - Fights First - With both an The Always Fights First and an Always Strike Last affect neither of them apply so the timing of when the unit fights is determined be whether the unit charged, the unit charged so fights first this round.
Engaged - Fights with 'regular' units
Engaged-AFF - Fights First
Engaged-AFL - Fights Last
Engaged-AFF-AFL - Fights with 'regular' units - With both an The Always Fights First and an Always Strike Last affect neither of them apply so the timing of when the unit fights is determined be whether the unit charged, the unit didn't charged so fight with 'regular' units.

Cornishman wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
FF = fight first FL = FIght Last
Chargeing has the same weight as another fight first rule

Gotta really disagree here. Yes, charging and always fight first will resolve at the same time in the absence of any always fight last affects, however the two interact with always fight last very differently.

The rules for Always strikes First/ Last (pg362) specify that a unit under the affects of always fight first and always fight last fight fights as if neither rules applies to it.

As previously demonstrated charging is a fight first affect. but not an always fight first affect.

This gives you 8 possible combinations of Charged/Always Fight First/Always Fight Last.

As a unit must either have charged or be engaged in the fight around I shall label these Charged/Engaged, and add '-AFF' (Always Fight First) and/or '-AFL' (Always Fight Last).

Charged - Fights First
Charged-AFF - Fights First
Charged-AFL - Fights Last - Whilst the unit charged, charging is not an always fight first affect, so the two affects (chargings and AFL) do not cancel. With two affects, A) allows the units to fight first, and B) Always make the unit Fight Last, the The Always bit about Always Strikes Last takes precedence.
Charged-AFF-AFL - Fights First - With both an The Always Fights First and an Always Strike Last affect niether of them apply so the timing of when the unit fights is determined be whether the unit charged, the unit charged so fights first this round.
Engaged - Fights with 'regular' units
Engaged-AFF - Fights First
Engaged-AFL - Fights Last
Engaged-AFF-AFL - Fights with 'regular' units - With both an The Always Fights First and an Always Strike Last affect niether of them apply so the timing of when the unit fights is determined be whether the unit charged, the unit didn't charged so fight with 'regular' units.

This looks mostly correct, however as I alluded to in my earlier post, if the charged fights first effect is considered outside the AFF/AFL rules, then on charged-AFL, the unit would fight last among the units that charged, but before units that did not charge as the Charging Units Fight First rule specifically states units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move have fought.

If it is outside of the AFF/AFL relationship, then units that Charged MUST fight before units that have not charged because it is not that it Fights First, but that it Fights Before units that did not charge.

Edit: Actually, on second look a few parts of that list are incorrect if the two effects are separate because being separate means that Charging Units Fight First essentially creates a mini Fight Phase within the Fight Phase where only units that charged can participate. This means that:

Charged: Fights normally within the charging units pre-fight.
Charged-AFF: fights before other units in the charging unit pre-fight that charged unless other units that charged are under the AFF rule as well.
Charged-AFF-AFL: fight normally with other units in the charging units pre-fight.
Charged-AFL: fights last among units in the charged pre-fight unless other units that charged are under the AFL rule as well, but still before any units that did not charge.

Of note is that the Charging Units Fight First only specifies that all units that have chargeg must have fought before units that did not charge can be chosen to fight. Therefore, using stratagems or abilities to make a unit fight again does not force them to the front of the line once out of the charging units pre-fight. Presumably however, this leaves it open to using those abilities before all units that charged have fought once, so they become eligible again before units that did not charge can be selected to fight.

For example:

A Khorne Berzerkers unit and another unit charges in your turn and no Heroic Interventions are made by the opponent. The Khorne Berzerkers are chosen first to fight, then as per their Blood for the Blood God ability they are immediately able to fight again, so are chosen to fight again. After their second fight, you could use a Stratagem to make them eligible to fight a third time and since your other unit still has not fought, your opponent's models are not yet eligible to fight. This can be heavily abused by a Khornate CSM list actually. All they need is to charge with their entire army and as long as they keep one unit sitting until the end, they can expend their entire armies chances to fight before their opponent can fight once.

Charged for is not outside the ff rules atleast not at any competative event.

U02dah4 wrote:
Charged for is not outside the ff rules atleast not at any competative event.

Having charged is a fight first affect
If there are a group of units which charged and/or have an always fight first affect and no always fight last affects then they are all resolved before all other units (with the player whose turn it is getting to pick the first unit), when selecting units from this group it doesn't matter whether a unit charged and/or has an always fight first affect.

Having charged is a fight first affect, it is not an always fight first affect.
Once a unit has charged into combat, having charged that unit does not proceed to always fight first for the rest of the combat.
e.g. If unit which charged on a previous turn is still eligible to fight during on a subsequent turn it does not fight first during this subsequent round in turn by virtue having charged in previous turn.

Thus;
A unit that is under the affect of a always fight last affect (and not under the affect of an always fight fight affect) will always fight last, even on a turn in which it charged.

Cornishman wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Charged for is not outside the ff rules atleast not at any competative event.

Having charged is a fight first affect
If there are a group of units which charged and/or have an always fight first affect and no always fight last affects then they are all resolved before all other units (with the player whose turn it is getting to pick the first unit), when selecting units from this group it doesn't matter whether a unit charged and/or has an always fight first affect.

Having charged is a fight first affect, it is not an always fight first affect.
Once a unit has charged into combat, having charged that unit does not proceed to always fight first for the rest of the combat.
e.g. If unit which charged on a previous turn is still eligible to fight during on a subsequent turn it does not fight first during this subsequent round in turn by virtue having charged in previous turn.

Thus;
A unit that is under the affect of a always fight last affect (and not under the affect of an always fight fight affect) will always fight last, even on a turn in which it charged.

Except that Charging Units Fight First states that units that have not made a charge action this turn cannot fight before all units that made a charge this turn have fought, RAW, this seems to be irrespective of AFF and AFL. According to this rule, a unit that charged this turn must fight before any units that did not charge this turn. Unless there is a part of those rules that overrides this specific rule, they apply within, not over it.

 SergentSilver wrote:


This looks mostly correct, however as I alluded to in my earlier post, if the charged fights first effect is considered outside the AFF/AFL rules, then on charged-AFL, the unit would fight last among the units that charged, but before units that did not charge as the Charging Units Fight First rule specifically states units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move have fought.

If it is outside of the AFF/AFL relationship, then units that Charged MUST fight before units that have not charged because it is not that it Fights First, but that it Fights Before units that did not charge.

Edit: Actually, on second look a few parts of that list are incorrect if the two effects are separate because being separate means that Charging Units Fight First essentially creates a mini Fight Phase within the Fight Phase where only units that charged can participate. This means that:

Charged: Fights normally within the charging units pre-fight.
Charged-AFF: fights before other units in the charging unit pre-fight that charged unless other units that charged are under the AFF rule as well.
Charged-AFF-AFL: fight normally with other units in the charging units pre-fight.
Charged-AFL: fights last among units in the charged pre-fight unless other units that charged are under the AFL rule as well, but still before any units that did not charge.

Of note is that the Charging Units Fight First only specifies that all units that have chargeg must have fought before units that did not charge can be chosen to fight. Therefore, using stratagems or abilities to make a unit fight again does not force them to the front of the line once out of the charging units pre-fight. Presumably however, this leaves it open to using those abilities before all units that charged have fought once, so they become eligible again before units that did not charge can be selected to fight.

An important point is that the Always Fight Last affects are usually worked along of the lines 'may not be selected until all other eligible units have done so', and similarily Always Fight First (e.g Flawless Perfection C:CSM 'Units with this trait always fight first in the Fight phase even if they didn’t charge may alway first first...) literaly just mention fighting first, even if they didn't charge.

Eligibility is determined by either having charged, or being in engagement range of an enemy unit at the time a unit is selected (pg228). An eligible unit is then selected to fight.

If there are eligible units that charged, or have an ‘Always Fight First’ rule then these are selected first (pg 361/229).

Always fight first affects do not (usually) change the eligibility requirements (e.g. a unit that charged can always be selected to fight, even if at the time of selection there are no longer any enemy units within engagement range), so in order to be selected to fight on turns they didn’t charge they must be within engagement range of the enemy.

There is also nothing to suggest that if a unit under the effects of an Always fight First affect charges it gains a double ‘Fight First’ which would mean that any and all such units would have to be selected before selecting units which ‘only’ charged or have an Always Fight First Affect, or that a unit which charged but is under an always strikes last affect still attacks before those units which didn’t not charge.

I can not see any rationale for the ‘fights last among units in the charged pre-fight’ or ‘fights before other units in the charging unit pre-fight’ steps.

If a unit charges (which would usually allow it to fight first) and is under the effect of an Always Fight Last affect (e.g. the unit may not fight until all other eligible units have been selected) then this means that such a unit won’t be allowed to fight until any, and all other eligible units have done so. Eligible units include those units that did not charge but are simply within engagement range (pg.228), thus so long as there are such units then this charging unit can’t be selected until all of those units have resolved their attacks, such a unit ‘Fights Last’

If a unit charges (which would usually allow it to fight first) and is under the effect of both an Always Fight Last affect (i.e. the unit may not fight until all other eligible units have been selected) and an always Fight First Affect (e.g. ‘this unit may always fight first’) then this means that such a unit would be selected in the ‘Fights First’ section. As per p362 the units acts as if neither the Fight First or Fight Last affects affect the unit. As an eligible unit that charged it is selected to fight with other ‘Fight First’ units.

Cornishman wrote:


An important point is that the Always Fight Last affects are usually worked along of the lines 'may not be selected until all other eligible units have done so', and similarily Always Fight First (e.g Flawless Perfection C:CSM 'Units with this trait always fight first in the Fight phase even if they didn’t charge may alway first first...) literaly just mention fighting first, even if they didn't charge.

Eligibility is determined by either having charged, or being in engagement range of an enemy unit at the time a unit is selected (pg228). An eligible unit is then selected to fight.

If there are eligible units that charged, or have an ‘Always Fight First’ rule then these are selected first (pg 361/229).

Always fight first affects do not (usually) change the eligibility requirements (e.g. a unit that charged can always be selected to fight, even if at the time of selection there are no longer any enemy units within engagement range), so in order to be selected to fight on turns they didn’t charge they must be within engagement range of the enemy.

There is also nothing to suggest that if a unit under the effects of an Always fight First affect charges it gains a double ‘Fight First’ which would mean that any and all such units would have to be selected before selecting units which ‘only’ charged or have an Always Fight First Affect, or that a unit which charged but is under an always strikes last affect still attacks before those units which didn’t not charge.

I can not see any rationale for the ‘fights last among units in the charged pre-fight’ or ‘fights before other units in the charging unit pre-fight’ steps.

If a unit charges (which would usually allow it to fight first) and is under the effect of an Always Fight Last affect (e.g. the unit may not fight until all other eligible units have been selected) then this means that such a unit won’t be allowed to fight until any, and all other eligible units have done so. Eligible units include those units that did not charge but are simply within engagement range (pg.228), thus so long as there are such units then this charging unit can’t be selected until all of those units have resolved their attacks, such a unit ‘Fights Last’

If a unit charges (which would usually allow it to fight first) and is under the effect of both an Always Fight Last affect (i.e. the unit may not fight until all other eligible units have been selected) and an always Fight First Affect (e.g. ‘this unit may always fight first’) then this means that such a unit would be selected in the ‘Fights First’ section. As per p362 the units acts as if neither the Fight First or Fight Last affects affect the unit. As an eligible unit that charged it is selected to fight with other ‘Fight First’ units.

So upon further investigation, it seems like you have the right idea for the outcome, but maybe not the why of it. It's a bit hard to parse out some of what you are saying in there, but I think you're getting it.

Anyway, my further investigation led me to this section:

ALWAYS FIGHT FIRST/LAST
Some rules allow a unit from your army to always fight first in the Fight phase, even if they didn't make a charge move this turn. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have similar rules, then alternate selecting units to fight with from amongst these units, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.

So, effectively it seems that charging more or less grants the AFF effect along with the unconditional eligibility to be selected to fight. Basically, that means that the charged rule operates simultaneously to AFF/AFL meaning they overlap rather than granting multiple instances. With the way this is worded, it would seem to override the units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move have fought section of the charge rule, thus making the fight phase flow with only three "steps" of selection:

Charged/AFF: Fight first.
Normal or Charged/AFF&AFL: Fight normally.
AFL: Fight last.

GW should make a FAQ to clear that up, because there is still room for argument about RAW with the charge rule stating that units that didn't charge cannot fight until after all units that have charged.

I think this is a misreading of the rules. Based on the Rare Rules there are specific interactions at work.

Units that charged fight first.

Units that Always Fight First act at the same time as units that charged, even if they didn't charge

Units under the effect of a Fight Last-type rule fight after other units, even if if they charged.

Units under the effect of an Alway Fight First and an Always Fight Last rule fight normally, which mean if the charged this turn they fight first.

It is really this simple. There are no other permutations other than the not eligible to fight rules that are now cropping up. When you can fight based on those depends on the exact wording of the rule.

 alextroy wrote:
I think this is a misreading of the rules. Based on the Rare Rules there are specific interactions at work.

Units that charged fight first.

Units that Always Fight First act at the same time as units that charged, even if they didn't charge

Units under the effect of a Fight Last-type rule fight after other units, even if if they charged.

Units under the effect of an Alway Fight First and an Always Fight Last rule fight normally, which mean if the charged this turn they fight first.

It is really this simple. There are no other permutations other than the not eligible to fight rules that are now cropping up. When you can fight based on those depends on the exact wording of the rule.

For me at least, all the trouble comes from the Charging Units Fight First rule stating that units that did not charge this turn cannot fight until all units that did make a charge this turn have fought. Except the AFF rules states that they fight at the same time as units that have charged this turn even if they themselves did not charge this turn. If you just ignore the part stating that units that did not charge cannot fight before any units that did charge, then there is nothing to question.

As I said, I believe that part is to be overridden by the AFF/AFL rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And before it gets confused, I mean that I agree with your flow chart.

No fight normally means they fight as if they neither charged, or were effected by another fight first rule or were effected by a fight last rule. They therefore fight at the speed of units that did not charge but were not effected by a fight last rule

SergentSilver wrote:For me at least, all the trouble comes from the Charging Units Fight First rule stating that units that did not charge this turn cannot fight until all units that did make a charge this turn have fought. Except the AFF rules states that they fight at the same time as units that have charged this turn even if they themselves did not charge this turn. If you just ignore the part stating that units that did not charge cannot fight before any units that did charge, then there is nothing to question.

As I said, I believe that part is to be overridden by the AFF/AFL rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And before it gets confused, I mean that I agree with your flow chart.

Glad you agree with the flow chart. The rules under "Charging units fight first" (pg 229) comprises of 2 sentence, and a bullet point:
Units that made a charge move this turn fight first in the charge phase. This means that units that did nont make a charge ove this turn cannont be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move.

Units that made a charge move this turn fight first

The key here is that first sentence is the rule, the second sentance is a description of how the rule operates. The stated operation of the rule "units that did nont make a charge ove this turn cannont be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move" is in isolation from potential Fight Last affects, which are introduced later in the Rare Rules Section pg (361). Thus when other rules apply (i.e. Always Fight Last) the emergent operation may deviate from the described course of action.

U02dah4 wrote:No fight normally means they fight as if they neither charged, or were effected by another fight first rule or were effected by a fight last rule. They therefore fight at the speed of units that did not charge but were not effected by a fight last rule

How so?

Under the Always Fights First/Last (p362) a model under the affects of both a) Always Fights First and b) Always Fights Last effects fights as if neither rules applies to that unit. Fighting first due to Charging is not an always fights first effect, and thus isn't cancelled out at part of this. Thus if a unit charged, and is under the affects of both a fight first and fight last effect it will fight first because it charged.

Yes charging is a fight first effect "charging units fight first" so charging units semanticaly always fight first. Their is no instance where charging units do not fight first except if they are effected by fight last rules or their are other fight first units. Therefore I interpret that they always fight first and another example of slightly inconsistent GW writing of the same effect.

Therefore if it is effected by both rules as you say it is effected by neither rule so it is effectively not charging.

The only distinction between charging and other always fights first is its application in turns when the unit didn't charge which is clarified in the rare rules.

I acknowledge this is a matter of interpretation. However I will cite how it is ruled within the tournament community as support for this interpretation rather than your interpretation.

We can argue in circles the precise RAW on this and you won't come to a definitive conclusion as the RAW answer is ambiguous. However if you go to a competative event my interpretation is the one you will likely deal with so that is the one I recommend you use.

U02dah4 wrote:
Yes charging is a fight first effect "charging units fight first"

Therefore if it is effected by neither rule it is effectively not charging


The only distinction between charging and always fights first is its application in turns when the unit didn't charge

The only distinction between charging and always fights first is its application in turns when the unit didn't charge - in some way - Yes:
Having charged us it's a fight first affect, so if there are no other affects (i.e. Always Fight Last) units that charged and have an Always Fight First affect will resolve before units that don't.

The only distinction between charging and always fights first is its application in turns when the unit didn't charge - In vital ways when interacting with Always Fight Last affects - No:
As fighting first critically is a fight first affect, it isn't an always fight first affect. This means as a Fight First affect it interacts with any Always Fight Last abilities differently from an Always Fight First affect. Critically as fight first affect the ability to fight first from charging isn't removed when an Always Fight Fight and an Always Fight Last affect mutually negate one another, as fighting first due to charging isn't anAlways Fight First affect.

As I've frequently quoted under the Always Strikes First/Last rare rules, this specifies that units under the affects of both 'always strikes first' and 'always strikes' last fight as if affected by niether (pg362).

I would argue charging is an always fight first effect.

Could you show me an instance except ones that pertain to other fight last or other fight first rules where charging units do not fight first

Could you alternatively show me a specific definition of an always "fight first effect". That contrasts it with charging fight firsts.

The only one we have in the rare rules says it counts as chargeing even if it didn't which is what always fight first means - counts as charging - therefore charging is an always fight first effect

As i say i understand your interpretation- I acknowledge there is some ambiguity but you cannot prove your case and if you cannot prove your case I'm going to go with the interpretation of the competative community as the most likely RAI and the general recommendation because that's what you will likely face if you go to an event

* also I was fleshing out my answer when you typed yours so you might want to rerread my previous post

It is NOT an ALWAYS fights first. By definition it isn't. There is no argument because it is conditional.

U02dah4 wrote:
I would argue charging is an always fight first effect.

Could you show me an instance except ones that pertain to other fight last or other fight first rules where charging units do not fight first

Could you alternatively show me a specific definition of an always fight first effect. That contrasts it with charging fight firsts.

The only one we have in the rare rules says it counts as chargeing even if it didn't which is what always fight first means - counts as charging - therefore charging is an always fight first effect

* also I was fleshing out my answer when you typed yours so you might want to rerread my previous post

As I've previously referenced a general description on an 'Always Fight First' rules is given under the 'Always Fights First/Last' section of the rare rules pg 361. For reference this is:
'Some rules allow a unit from your army to always fight first in the Fight Phase, even if they didn't make a charge move this turn'

Thus, the general requirements of 'Always Fight First' rule are both of:

Allows the unit to Fight First

Allows the Unit to Fight First when that unit hasn't made a charge move that turn

Charging only allows you to fight first on the turn you charged, so meets the 1st criteria, but fails to meet the 2nd criteria as it doesn't allow the unit to Fight First on turns it didn't charge, thus cannot be an always fight first rule.

Please would you show me where a unit having made a charge move may continue to Fight First in subequent rounds of combat by virtue of having made a charge move in a previous turn?

For instance: Unit A charged Unit B on turn 3. It is still engaged with Unit B on turn4. Unit A doesn't have any other affects that may affect the order in which if fights, does the unit fight first on turn 4?

The answer is of course no. As per pg.229 only units that made a charge move that turn go first, any charge moves on previous turns are irrelevant to determine whether the unit Fights first on a given turn. This again proves that fighting first due to charging isn't an Always Fight First affect which is critical to the interaction with Always Fight Last Affects.

The rare rules section does not say 'Always Strikes First' counts as charging, it describes it as 'Fights First', so such will fight in the same batch as units who have charged. Counting as charging would open up broader rules interactions (e.g. Hateful/Shock Assault).