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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Big shoota: 5ppm Assault 6 AP-1
Rokkit: 5ppm Assault 2 S8 AP-2 3Dmg
Kustom Shoota: Assault 8
Kombi-weapons: reduction in price by 5pts minimum
Burna: 3+D3 shots, counts as AP-2 in CC.
KMB/KMK/KMS: Stays the same, reduce price by 50%

Fun with math, a unit of 3 Meganobz armed with Kustom shootas would now get 24 shots for 9.3 hits, against T4 thats 4.6 wounds and about 1.5 dmg against a 3+ save. Against Chaff units like Guardsmen its 6.2 wounds and 4ish dead guard. So even doubling their shooting, Meganobz are still garbage at range.

Anyone else got suggestions? what do you think of the above?

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in ca
Preacher of the Emperor




Claremont, ON

Big Shoot assault 6 is double so I doubt we go that far. Maybe 4 S5 AP-1 D1

Or they make it on par with the Heavy Bolter and Go 3 shots S5 AP-1 D2 and that would be nice cause you'd hit once on BS5 so I'd take that

2000 4000 4000 5000 5000
DE 2500  
   
Made in us
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i think what happens to ork shooting weapons depends on if ddd sticks around. DDD makes orks 1 percentage point off of BS4+, if they put them back at true BS5+ now that the to-hit modifier cap is back, I can see them drastically upping the dice numbers on just like, everything.

Personally I'd be a fan of rather than making individual rokkits much stronger, actually arming models equipped with multiple rokkits with...multiple rokkits.

Killa Kanz have like 3 rokkits modeled on their single 'rokkit launcha' arm, Dredds similarly have 3 each, deffcoptas have 4 on their '2 rokkits.' Make them 5 points, improve the Ap by +1, and give vehicles equipped with rokkits extra shots to make them 'WYSIWYG."

Also I'd like to see kustom mega weapons at 3+d3 or 3d3.

I prefer the Big Shoota at D2 personally over tons of shots because I think orks have plenty of good antihorde tools and comparatively fewer anti-elite tools that they can easily build into. Plus, it would allow some weapons like the Grotzooka to have an actually different role.Ork Boyz anti-horde option is more ork boyz.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Crescent City Fl..

Not sure if that is enough on those burnas. They're still only an 8" range. I would think a 10 or 12" range is a must. If that costs us more hit dice then how about 1+D3 with a 12" range ect ect. Mostly just give us more reach!

"Pathetic earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void, without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe, anything at all, you would've hidden from it in terror."
My blog http://warhead01.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-art-of-ork.html 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




the_scotsman wrote:
i think what happens to ork shooting weapons depends on if ddd sticks around. DDD makes orks 1 percentage point off of BS4+, if they put them back at true BS5+ now that the to-hit modifier cap is back, I can see them drastically upping the dice numbers on just like, everything.

Personally I'd be a fan of rather than making individual rokkits much stronger, actually arming models equipped with multiple rokkits with...multiple rokkits.

Killa Kanz have like 3 rokkits modeled on their single 'rokkit launcha' arm, Dredds similarly have 3 each, deffcoptas have 4 on their '2 rokkits.' Make them 5 points, improve the Ap by +1, and give vehicles equipped with rokkits extra shots to make them 'WYSIWYG."

Also I'd like to see kustom mega weapons at 3+d3 or 3d3.

I prefer the Big Shoota at D2 personally over tons of shots because I think orks have plenty of good antihorde tools and comparatively fewer anti-elite tools that they can easily build into. Plus, it would allow some weapons like the Grotzooka to have an actually different role.Ork Boyz anti-horde option is more ork boyz.


60 shots at BS 4 is 30 hits.
60 shots at BS 5 is 20 hits
60 shots at BS 5 with DDD is 23.3

DDD increases actual hits by about 5.55% You have to figure, DDD has a 1/6th chance to proc and has a 1/3rd chance to actually hit 1/6 = 16.6%, 1/3rd of 16.6% is 5.55%

Personally, I think they should just give us the treatment Space Marines get, DDD procs an extra HIT not an extra shot. That puts DDD basically on par with BS4 but has a HUGE amount of swing to it. So now you can have 12 shots = 4 hits (all 5s) or you could have 12 shots = 14 hits because you rolled 6 6s and 2 5s.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






....lol. I added up tje hit percentages to 38.6 and went "yup, +1.4 to that and you get 50%!" Lol mb.

An extra hit would be nice, certainly saves the obnoxious amount of extra dice you have to roll with ddd. That rule was fun until like the first time I had to do one round of shooting with 5 flash gits.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




SemperMortis wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
i think what happens to ork shooting weapons depends on if ddd sticks around. DDD makes orks 1 percentage point off of BS4+, if they put them back at true BS5+ now that the to-hit modifier cap is back, I can see them drastically upping the dice numbers on just like, everything.

Personally I'd be a fan of rather than making individual rokkits much stronger, actually arming models equipped with multiple rokkits with...multiple rokkits.

Killa Kanz have like 3 rokkits modeled on their single 'rokkit launcha' arm, Dredds similarly have 3 each, deffcoptas have 4 on their '2 rokkits.' Make them 5 points, improve the Ap by +1, and give vehicles equipped with rokkits extra shots to make them 'WYSIWYG."

Also I'd like to see kustom mega weapons at 3+d3 or 3d3.

I prefer the Big Shoota at D2 personally over tons of shots because I think orks have plenty of good antihorde tools and comparatively fewer anti-elite tools that they can easily build into. Plus, it would allow some weapons like the Grotzooka to have an actually different role.Ork Boyz anti-horde option is more ork boyz.


60 shots at BS 4 is 30 hits.
60 shots at BS 5 is 20 hits
60 shots at BS 5 with DDD is 23.3

DDD increases actual hits by about 5.55% You have to figure, DDD has a 1/6th chance to proc and has a 1/3rd chance to actually hit 1/6 = 16.6%, 1/3rd of 16.6% is 5.55%

Personally, I think they should just give us the treatment Space Marines get, DDD procs an extra HIT not an extra shot. That puts DDD basically on par with BS4 but has a HUGE amount of swing to it. So now you can have 12 shots = 4 hits (all 5s) or you could have 12 shots = 14 hits because you rolled 6 6s and 2 5s.

Then just skip the middleman and propose Orks as BS4+

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Crescent City Fl..

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Then just skip the middleman and propose Orks as BS4+

This would make me very happy.

"Pathetic earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void, without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe, anything at all, you would've hidden from it in terror."
My blog http://warhead01.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-art-of-ork.html 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 warhead01 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Then just skip the middleman and propose Orks as BS4+

This would make me very happy.

Why? That's been part of the army's core for quite a long time? Orks just shooting in a general direction is pretty, well, Orky.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 warhead01 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Then just skip the middleman and propose Orks as BS4+

This would make me very happy.

Why? That's been part of the army's core for quite a long time? Orks just shooting in a general direction is pretty, well, Orky.


Probably because there's only so long you can deal with an obnoxious gimmick that requires you to roll a bucket of dice every time you want to shoot with something.

If they want to keep it 5+ for sentimental reasons, make it 5+ and make ddd an additional hit on a 6. that basically mens it's functionally identical to BS4+ - a -1 to hit no longer cuts your shooting by 50%, now it cuts it by 33% and you can have weapons and upgrades that roll a reasonable number of dice. Almost all dedicated ork shooting units already just dispense with the bs anyway - tankbustas reroll to hit, mek guns are bs4+, some of the buggies are 4+ or even 3+, flash gits are 4+.

5+ shooting is just an anchor around the necks of various shooting options - like the kilkannon on battlewagons, shootas on boyz, lootas, and a few other units that are still stuck with the rule basically demanded by ork players' opponents because they find it funny that orks can't hit anything.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






I agree with the Big Shoota change, I'd prefer more shots over becoming D2 like all the other HB equivalents.

Likewise I support the Rokkit shot amount boost since it would make stuff like Kanz much more relevant in terms of firepower.

I think Kustom Shootas should be maybe AP-1 in addition to the Assault 8, though that might be too much depending on how its final price is.

The only question that raises is how the Supa Shoota should be correspondingly buffed given that its lesser cousins are now bringing out the real dakka. I would suggest this being the one that actually delivers multiple damage, make them Assault 4 S6 AP-2 D2. It would make Dakkajets actually scary again and make them a non trivial upgrade for the other planes that can use them.
   
Made in dk
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






Klaws 3 flat Damage.

Regular killaws multiply hit rolls made with it by 2, Remove hit penalty when dual wielding, Damage 1 and no dual wield attack bonus.

Range 8" changed to Range 12".

Bubblechukka RANGE 36" TYPE Heavy 3 S 5 AP -2 D D6 ABILITIES Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon, that hit inflicts a mortal wound in addition to the normal damage.

I agree on DDD causing hits instead of hit rolls, especially if re-rolls don't get nerfed, too much hassle to resolve. I'm a bit worried that some players would miss the current mechanic though.

Some glass cannons might need a nerf to their weapons to avoid Orks becoming a rocket tag faction. Assuming Gretchin get fixed so they can keep Lootas safe it would mostly be Tankbustas that would become too much of a one-use unit. Maybe reducing bomb squig damage and cost could balance the extra 42% damage.
   
Made in us
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Crescent City Fl..

the_scotsman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 warhead01 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Then just skip the middleman and propose Orks as BS4+

This would make me very happy.

Why? That's been part of the army's core for quite a long time? Orks just shooting in a general direction is pretty, well, Orky.


Probably because there's only so long you can deal with an obnoxious gimmick that requires you to roll a bucket of dice every time you want to shoot with something.

If they want to keep it 5+ for sentimental reasons, make it 5+ and make ddd an additional hit on a 6. that basically mens it's functionally identical to BS4+ - a -1 to hit no longer cuts your shooting by 50%, now it cuts it by 33% and you can have weapons and upgrades that roll a reasonable number of dice. Almost all dedicated ork shooting units already just dispense with the bs anyway - tankbustas reroll to hit, mek guns are bs4+, some of the buggies are 4+ or even 3+, flash gits are 4+.

5+ shooting is just an anchor around the necks of various shooting options - like the kilkannon on battlewagons, shootas on boyz, lootas, and a few other units that are still stuck with the rule basically demanded by ork players' opponents because they find it funny that orks can't hit anything.


As to the why.
I'm of two minds on this. On one side I'm sick of rolling loads and loads of dice and netting a quarter of that at best in hits and the same or only a bit more in wounds and of that most bounces off the target after a save of some kind. I'm all for keeping lots and lots of shots, just let me hit.
On the other hand give me a similar number of shots, generally speaking, let me hit about half the time with the number of dice rolled but make all of those hits more meaningful with a higher ST or a better Ap value.
Frankly the shoota annoys me because it went from 24" down to 18 and prior to that we had access to bolters.
Something needs to be adjusted or changed. I'm pro options give me more options. Streamlining to simplicity and speed of play is dull and distills a codex down to a list of these units are worth it and skip the rest. I'd like more choices in a codex to see the table because sticking them in a list for the heck of it is not a massive or major detriment.
Meh. GW's gunna GW. So I expect stats to stay the same and Ork weapons to all become more random with less pay off because "random lucky rolls are fun! "
And this is coming from playing Orks for something like 22 years, I've rolled a lot of dice that ultimately turned into a waist of time.
I don't even feel like lootas are even worth fielding right now. they don't hit enough and don't have enough shots at all. I can't see bothering with more than 5 of them for that flat 100 points and that's only if I can't see an better choice for those points. If they hit more I or cost less.



If I am adding a new thing I want for the Ork army, give Grots an autto-gun again so they can do a little something more useful wit that wonderful to hit roll of theirs.

I don't know where the sweet spot for the big shoota is currently. when I was fielding them back in 3rd we could get 4 in a mob of as few as 10 boys. 12 shots against SM's should net 1 or 2 dead SM's a turn at range, before they had 2 wounds each. So maybe 6 shots each , maybe 5 I don't know, we didn't have to compete with -1 to hit back then but we also didn't have DDD.
I like the idea of a 6 to hit turning into 2 hits scored. I'd like something like a 6 to wound to at a minimum give the weapon a -1 AP, to AP0 weapons at least.
Choppas need a Choppa rule again, would take as little as a 6 to wound or hit mechanic, giving those hits or wounds a -1 AP. I'd be thrilled with that.
Even if it doesn't work against things with a Vehicle Keyword, that'd be fine with me.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 vict0988 wrote:


Bubblechukka RANGE 36" TYPE Heavy 3 S 5 AP -2 D D6 ABILITIES Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon, that hit inflicts a mortal wound in addition to the normal damage.


This may sound hypocritical after my last post but I wouldn't change this weapon in this way.
I'd give each stat a 1+D6 and a -1AP - d6 (Capped at 6 if need be)
And possibly add a mortal wound mechanic, don't know. I'ts not a bad idea, I'd not frown at a D6 damage with that extra mortal wound.
To me a flat 3 shots just wont cut it when I might roll a 4 or more. So Ork weapons should be weird and "wacky". Just not all of them.
The lack of shots drops the amount of damage it can produce in favor of an average + a few. Give me more!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/10 14:50:10


"Pathetic earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void, without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe, anything at all, you would've hidden from it in terror."
My blog http://warhead01.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-art-of-ork.html 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut





At this point, dexes are probably being printed if not being shipped. We will just have to wait and see.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/11 21:42:24


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






I think that 2 shot rokkits aren't reasonable - for starters, most ork models with rokkits have 1 rokkit on a stick and spares to reload!

I'd like to see rokkits and rokkit racks, so vehicles take rokkit racks and they have 2 shots. I can't see 15 tankbustas with 30 rokkit shots becoming a thing either!

12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!

I'm Selling Infinity, 40k, dystopian wars, UK based! 
   
Made in gb
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander






London

Just browsing this thread, here are my thoughts:

- I'd redo DDD to give an additional hit rather than a hit-roll. From what I've seen in battle reports, it doesn't really give much, particularly with the abundance of hit modifiers.

- I'd keep some of the unusual weapons' abilities rather than just giving them generic "cause a MW on a 6 to wound" gimmick. Bubblechukas are a weird one, so I'd either keep the "D6 for every stat" or do something like:

Range: 24(? whatever the original range was), S: 2D6, Ap: D6, Damage: D6.

I think overall Orks have some unique and interesting weapons, and they should stay that way. I'm getting a bit bored of stuff with potential just ruined by "this weapon does a MW on a roll of 6" crap, I surely hope nothing gets replaced by this in the update.

Yes it may be a bit much but your odds of getting S12 6-damage is 1/216. Or you could reduce the stats and give it some sort of beam effect.

Rokkits I think should remain 1 shot but gain D6 damage. I never understood why these ones do less (in some cases) damage than the Imperial or Eldar equivalents despite having the same S and Ap.

   
Made in dk
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






It's not just about the chance of getting amazing stats, it's the amount of times you have to roll a dice, it takes time.

What does it matter that you get 6 shots if it is Strength 1? What does it matter that you get Strength 6 and AP-6 if you get 1 shot?

Maybe it should be a mortal wound on a 4+ and 3 mortal wounds on a 6+ to wound, but rolling randomly for Strength, AP and shots for a unit that costs less than 100 pts is a waste of my time.
   
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In My Lab

 Valkyrie wrote:
Just browsing this thread, here are my thoughts:

- I'd redo DDD to give an additional hit rather than a hit-roll. From what I've seen in battle reports, it doesn't really give much, particularly with the abundance of hit modifiers.

- I'd keep some of the unusual weapons' abilities rather than just giving them generic "cause a MW on a 6 to wound" gimmick. Bubblechukas are a weird one, so I'd either keep the "D6 for every stat" or do something like:

Range: 24(? whatever the original range was), S: 2D6, Ap: D6, Damage: D6.

I think overall Orks have some unique and interesting weapons, and they should stay that way. I'm getting a bit bored of stuff with potential just ruined by "this weapon does a MW on a roll of 6" crap, I surely hope nothing gets replaced by this in the update.

Yes it may be a bit much but your odds of getting S12 6-damage is 1/216. Or you could reduce the stats and give it some sort of beam effect.

Rokkits I think should remain 1 shot but gain D6 damage. I never understood why these ones do less (in some cases) damage than the Imperial or Eldar equivalents despite having the same S and Ap.
Flat 3 might average less than d6 damage, but it's better in a lot of situations despite that.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




the_scotsman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 warhead01 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Then just skip the middleman and propose Orks as BS4+

This would make me very happy.

Why? That's been part of the army's core for quite a long time? Orks just shooting in a general direction is pretty, well, Orky.


Probably because there's only so long you can deal with an obnoxious gimmick that requires you to roll a bucket of dice every time you want to shoot with something.

If they want to keep it 5+ for sentimental reasons, make it 5+ and make ddd an additional hit on a 6. that basically mens it's functionally identical to BS4+ - a -1 to hit no longer cuts your shooting by 50%, now it cuts it by 33% and you can have weapons and upgrades that roll a reasonable number of dice. Almost all dedicated ork shooting units already just dispense with the bs anyway - tankbustas reroll to hit, mek guns are bs4+, some of the buggies are 4+ or even 3+, flash gits are 4+.

5+ shooting is just an anchor around the necks of various shooting options - like the kilkannon on battlewagons, shootas on boyz, lootas, and a few other units that are still stuck with the rule basically demanded by ork players' opponents because they find it funny that orks can't hit anything.

Mek Guns are bring used by Grots though so that makes sense.
Regarding cutting off the percentage of shots though...it's always affected lower BS armies more. Nobody is arguing for Guard to become BS3+ because of modifiers, which are honestly not a problem at this point because of the modification for most of those armies to become like they're in cover + the cap on any +/- to hit.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander






London

 JNAProductions wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
Just browsing this thread, here are my thoughts:

- I'd redo DDD to give an additional hit rather than a hit-roll. From what I've seen in battle reports, it doesn't really give much, particularly with the abundance of hit modifiers.

- I'd keep some of the unusual weapons' abilities rather than just giving them generic "cause a MW on a 6 to wound" gimmick. Bubblechukas are a weird one, so I'd either keep the "D6 for every stat" or do something like:

Range: 24(? whatever the original range was), S: 2D6, Ap: D6, Damage: D6.

I think overall Orks have some unique and interesting weapons, and they should stay that way. I'm getting a bit bored of stuff with potential just ruined by "this weapon does a MW on a roll of 6" crap, I surely hope nothing gets replaced by this in the update.

Yes it may be a bit much but your odds of getting S12 6-damage is 1/216. Or you could reduce the stats and give it some sort of beam effect.

Rokkits I think should remain 1 shot but gain D6 damage. I never understood why these ones do less (in some cases) damage than the Imperial or Eldar equivalents despite having the same S and Ap.
Flat 3 might average less than d6 damage, but it's better in a lot of situations despite that.


Oh yes I agree that there are useful situations for D3 rockets, I just think it's more odd that they are D3 compared to the Imperial/Xenos counterparts.

   
Made in us
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 warhead01 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Then just skip the middleman and propose Orks as BS4+

This would make me very happy.

Why? That's been part of the army's core for quite a long time? Orks just shooting in a general direction is pretty, well, Orky.


Probably because there's only so long you can deal with an obnoxious gimmick that requires you to roll a bucket of dice every time you want to shoot with something.

If they want to keep it 5+ for sentimental reasons, make it 5+ and make ddd an additional hit on a 6. that basically mens it's functionally identical to BS4+ - a -1 to hit no longer cuts your shooting by 50%, now it cuts it by 33% and you can have weapons and upgrades that roll a reasonable number of dice. Almost all dedicated ork shooting units already just dispense with the bs anyway - tankbustas reroll to hit, mek guns are bs4+, some of the buggies are 4+ or even 3+, flash gits are 4+.

5+ shooting is just an anchor around the necks of various shooting options - like the kilkannon on battlewagons, shootas on boyz, lootas, and a few other units that are still stuck with the rule basically demanded by ork players' opponents because they find it funny that orks can't hit anything.

Mek Guns are bring used by Grots though so that makes sense.
Regarding cutting off the percentage of shots though...it's always affected lower BS armies more. Nobody is arguing for Guard to become BS3+ because of modifiers, which are honestly not a problem at this point because of the modification for most of those armies to become like they're in cover + the cap on any +/- to hit.


That's kind of my overall point though. changing DDD to "a 6 on a hit is an extra hit" would actually mean that orks are functionally BS4+ both with and without a -1 to hit modifier. There's a huge gulf between a single -1 to hit affecting an army like tau or guard (33% penalty) and affecting orks (50% penalty) and GW seems to understand that that gak don't fly given how many ork shooting units have Bespoke Special Rules TM designed to make them BS4+ already.

Instead of having a special rule for Dakkajets and Flash Gitz and Mek Gunz and Squigbuggies and wazboms and gunwagons that all just kind of amounts to GW realizing BS5+ just doesn't work for a shooting unit, just preserve the flavor of "bs 5+" but give them functionally bs4+.


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

Extra hits instead of extra shots is a massive improvement.

However there are multiple units from other codexes that actually have the extra hits on 6 rule, even with very high BS or WS, not just the crappy BS5+ or BS4+ that orks have. A bonus like that for some ork units, if not all, wouldn't be gamebreaking if handled correctly.

Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Saw a few comments I want to address.

Presently it takes 8 big shootas to kill 1 Space Marine. 24 shots, 9.3 hits, 6.2ish wounds and 2.07 dmg = 1 dead Marine.

If they are buffed similarly to what the Ad mech just got, (4 shots each) the math goes to 6 big shootas to kill 1 Marine.
If they DOUBLE its shots they go to 4 Big shootas to kill a single Marine.
If they give -1AP and no other changes it goes to a bit less than 6 big shootas to kill 1 Marine.

At present, a Big shoota is a 5pt upgrade, the cheapest platform to take them on is Boyz at 8pts per model (keeping in mind you need 10 boyz to use 1 big shoota). Assuming you just happen to have a buttload of boyz sitting around with nothing to do and arm them all with Big shootas the actual cost of killing 1 space marine with big shootas is

4 Big shootas = 52pts
6 Big Shootas = 78pts
8 Big SHootas = 104pts All to kill 1 Space Marine at 18pts.

If you apply the DDD rule changes to give them exploding 6s adding hits as opposed to shots the math changes...slightly.

Presently it would change hte math from 8 big shootas to kill 1 Marine to 6.
If you then gave Big shootas -1AP it would further change the math to needing 4 Big shootas to kill 1 Marine
If you then gave them +1 shot AND -1AP it would then become 3 Big shootas to kill 1 Marine

On a platform like the Scrapjet which has 4 big shootas, 2 hitting on 5s 2 on 4s they would effectively become...almost useful?

I think if they increased it to 5 shots, -1AP and gave us the new DDD rule a Big shoota would finally be about right. I just don't see them giving Big shootas D2.


On the tankbusta notion. I've done the math somewhere else before

155pts of Eradicators gets 4 shots with Heavy Melta rifles and 4 shots with a Multi melta. 4 shots = 2.66 hits, against T5-7 that is 1.77 wounds and with -4 AP its likely inflicting 1.77 x D6+2 dmg. While the MM is doing 1.77 x D6 dmg Totals out to 9.7 dmg and 6.2 and at half range 13.3 and 9.7 for a grand total of 16ish dmg at Max range and 23ish dmg at half range.

153pts of Tankbustas with new DDD rule and 2 shot rokkits would do 18 shots for 6 initial hits with 3 extras for 9 against vehicles they would reroll for 3 extra hits with 1.5 exploding 6s for 13.5 hits, against T5-7 that is 9 wounds, against a 3+ that is 6 shots going through for 18dmg. So against vehicles these guys would be doing 2dmg more than the Eradicators at max range and 5dmg less than average at half range. Considering Tankbustas are T4 with a 6+ save I think that is a fair trade off in value/durability.





This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/15 16:56:05


 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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the concern I have with the doubling of their shots is not how they impact marines, but the escalation of anti-horde firepower, something that orks already have an absolute ton of. I'm of the opinion that the 'heavy bolter equivalent' weapons like the HB, the splinter cannon, and eventually probably the shuriken cannon as well are going to d2 rather than increasing in shots, because 9th edition essentially already fixed the problem of hordes being unmanageable and inefficient to kill that plagued 8th, and relying on marines' inherent weakness to multidamage weaponry to bump up their power leaves already underpowered light infantry unpunished while offsetting marines getting that increased durability on the cheap.

facing orks with armies like Genestealer Cults and Eldar already feels a bit like trying to soak up the water of a firehose by drinking it, D2 would be a way to make big shootas not useless against marines while not making orks absolutely crazy against other hordes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Good point on the tankbustas, though. Maybe 2-shot rokkits does make sense. I would note though you did list them for 5pts, and currently the 17-point price point for tankbustas is based on 7 for the body and 10 for the rokkit.

I can get behind 5-point one shot rokkits or 10-point two shot rokkits. Personally, I could get behind 5-point one shot rokkits with units like killa kanz, deffcoptas, etc etc getting the actual number of rokkits that are modeled on the model rather than the weird abstraction GW has going on currently where 'any number of rokkits = one rokkit launcha unless we decide to call it a rack of rokkits in which case any number of rokkits = 2 rokkit launchas'

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/15 17:06:14


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
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 the_scotsman wrote:
the concern I have with the doubling of their shots is not how they impact marines, but the escalation of anti-horde firepower, something that orks already have an absolute ton of. I'm of the opinion that the 'heavy bolter equivalent' weapons like the HB, the splinter cannon, and eventually probably the shuriken cannon as well are going to d2 rather than increasing in shots, because 9th edition essentially already fixed the problem of hordes being unmanageable and inefficient to kill that plagued 8th, and relying on marines' inherent weakness to multidamage weaponry to bump up their power leaves already underpowered light infantry unpunished while offsetting marines getting that increased durability on the cheap.

facing orks with armies like Genestealer Cults and Eldar already feels a bit like trying to soak up the water of a firehose by drinking it, D2 would be a way to make big shootas not useless against marines while not making orks absolutely crazy against other hordes.


If they fixed DDD to be extra hits instead of shots and made Big shootas D2 the math shows big shootas still being garbage.
4 big shootas would be 12 shots, 6 hits, 4 wounds and 1.33 failed saves for 1.33 dead Marines

4 big shoota boyz = 52pts (and you can be sure GW won't let Big shootas stay at 5pts if they upgrade it to D2)

2 Heavy bolters is 6 shots, 4 hits, 2.66 wounds and 1.33 failed saves for 1.33 dead Marines

2 Heavy Bolter Marines is 56pts. So for 4 extra points they get the same # of wounds and 3+ armor as opposed to 6+. not to mention the insanely easy buffs SMs get depending on what turn it is, if a LT/Cpt is nearby, etc etc.

To put it bluntly, Ork heavy weapons are glass cannons due to the T4 6+ nature of their defensive profile, if they don't inflict dmg quick fast and in a damn hurry they aren't going to survive long enough to accomplish anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as the Rokkit goes. 5pts at 2 shots is too much. With tankbustas though, remember you can just artificially increase the base price of the Tankbusta to accommodate the increased dmg output. On a boyz mob, a single rokkit right now has a 38% chance to hit (including DDD) over 5 game turns you are likely to get just shy of 2 hits (assuming it somehow survives 5 turns). Against T5-7 that 38% chance becomes 25% chance(ish) to wound. Against a 3+ save its further reduce to about 16% chance to inflict dmg. That over the space of 5 game turns means you have an 84% chance EVERY single game for a Rokkit to do 3 dmg if it survives all 5 turns. without getting into math semantics regarding proportional chances. That just doesn't smack me as a good use of 10pts. if you DOUBLE their ROF and give them exploding 6s You might be right, at 10pts they might be appropriately priced.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/15 17:21:14


 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Mostly I was just commenting on your points comparison to eradicators - which appeared to be making the assumption that rokkits would be staying at 10 (17ppm tankbustas) rather than what they would be if rokkits were 5pts, which would be 12ppm.

Orks don't have a unit that is just a boy holding a big shoota on his own. If they did, Id agree with you, but typically my big shootas are secondary guns on vehicles or hidden 1 in 10 in boyz squads and distributed throughout the battlefield. They're pretty dang safe, I'd argue more safe than heavy bolters in a devastator squad would be.

I think an imperial guard heavy bolter is worth 5pts (assuming improved DDD that gets them up to bs"4+", and that's about what a theoretical AP- big shoota would be worth in my eyes. The extra 5pts a marine would pay for one would be owing to the increased quality of the platform. heavy bolters are overpriced in IG and were REALLY overpriced before 9th ed changed their stats, because outside of the odd one stapled to a tank your only option for them is super glass cannon stationary infantry teams. Nobody ever took them and nobody ever takes them now. I think they both make more sense at 5pts.

A current big shoota should just be basically free if GW is sticking to 'no gun <5pts. Or like, 2pts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/15 18:05:18


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 the_scotsman wrote:
Mostly I was just commenting on your points comparison to eradicators - which appeared to be making the assumption that rokkits would be staying at 10 (17ppm tankbustas) rather than what they would be if rokkits were 5pts, which would be 12ppm.

Orks don't have a unit that is just a boy holding a big shoota on his own. If they did, Id agree with you, but typically my big shootas are secondary guns on vehicles or hidden 1 in 10 in boyz squads and distributed throughout the battlefield. They're pretty dang safe, I'd argue more safe than heavy bolters in a devastator squad would be.

I think an imperial guard heavy bolter is worth 5pts (assuming improved DDD that gets them up to bs"4+", and that's about what a theoretical AP- big shoota would be worth in my eyes. The extra 5pts a marine would pay for one would be owing to the increased quality of the platform. heavy bolters are overpriced in IG and were REALLY overpriced before 9th ed changed their stats, because outside of the odd one stapled to a tank your only option for them is super glass cannon stationary infantry teams. Nobody ever took them and nobody ever takes them now. I think they both make more sense at 5pts.

A current big shoota should just be basically free if GW is sticking to 'no gun <5pts. Or like, 2pts.


A SM Heavy Bolter is likewise able to be protected by 9 other ablative models, but in this case they are 3+ with 2 wounds rather than 6+ with 1.

The problem as I see it with our future "buffed" weapons is GW's long illustrious history of incorrectly pointing most ork units. How many (non-mandatory) big shootas did you see in 7th when Rokkitz and shootas were the same price? None. How many in 8th when rokkitz went to 10pts? None. How many now in 9th? None.

Look at "kustom" shootas, same issue. cost the same (or used to) as a Stormbolter but was about 1/3 to 1/4th as effective.
Look at Burna's with their D3 shots at S4 8' range. Nobody takes burna mobz for a reason, infact, the only time I saw them played in 8th was as a FREE upgrade on Kommandos and even than it was a sidegrade at best. (in CC it only increased average dmg by 0.11 per model)

At the moment the Big shoota is functionally useless. If it were FREE it would still be closer to a sidegrade for boyz rather than an upgrade due to the loss of a choppa and pistol which benefits the orkz more in CC right now since they are usually advancing every turn they can meaning that Big shoota is 3 shots hitting on 6s right now rather than on 5s.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in dk
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






A Guardsman is 5 points, a big shoota kills 1 pts worth of Guardsmen more per turn than a shoota. If you take average life expectency for a unit of Shoota Boyz in battle rounds you have the value of a big shoota in pts. Basing it on its value against SM is a bad idea because that is not its intended target, if it was worth taking against them it would be overpowered. If it was worth shooting rokkits at Guardsmen then rokkits would be overpowered.

Making it free is silly because that will punish players that do not have Big Shoota Boys laying around for all of their units.

I cannot think of a weapon getting twice as many shots going well. Tesla carbines, multi-meltas, where is the balance? What's fun about rocket tag?

When mortars were 5 pts they were spammed, heavy bolters are better than mortars, if heavy bolters become 5 pts they will be spammed. A heavy bolter in an Infantry Squad replaces two lasguns, that's up to 4 S3 hits. A Big Shoota replaces 0,78 S4 hits. The math is a lot different.
   
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In My Lab

A heavy bolter replaces an average of 1 S3 hit at rapid fire range. Half of one at 24”, and none at 36”.

A Big Shoota replaces not just the shooting, but also the Choppa.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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 JNAProductions wrote:
A heavy bolter replaces an average of 1 S3 hit at rapid fire range. Half of one at 24”, and none at 36”.

A Big Shoota replaces not just the shooting, but also the Choppa.

I forgot HWT carry a lasgun, prior to 8th they couldn't use it. So I was thinking 2 FRFSRF lasguns.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/15 19:44:59


 
   
 
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