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Made in us
Slaanesh Veteran Marine with Tentacles




I figure the design would be so cheap to manufacture, use, and maintain, that it may find use amongst the most desperate and even possibly not so desperate of chaos space marines. It is also just so deliciously cruel, over the top and brutal of a weapon idea to turn regular humans into meat chunks, and so mad max like... not to mention that they may be recovered from loyalist scout marines as well. I suppose this is mostly me lore wish listing at this point, but does anyone know of any examples or text that supports this?

I already know cultists (particularly champions) use them...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the aesthetic of a chaos space marine wielding a massive shotgun, especially a double barreled sawn off type of thing, or a pump action would be pretty cool to look at... if it was supported or plausible in accordance with the fluff I would reflect it on a model.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/14 07:28:43


Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM




United Kingdom

Probably - but I can't think of any specific examples. Their Legion Recon Squads had access to them, and Deathwatch have them so they are around.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/14 08:24:39


 
   
Made in gb
Thinking of Joining a Davinite Loge





Bolters are noted as being very easy to manufacture and IMO more effective overall than shotguns. Micro-RPG vs big shotgun basically.
Deathwatch shotguns are designed with specialist ammo and certain missions in mind. A CSM might take one if they beat a DW Marine but when they're out of ammo it's useless. As for Recon Marines and Scouts, CSM tend to use cultists in these roles even if they are really bad at it.
Shotguns have a cool factor for sure but when most of your gear is scavenged/possessed by demons, it's best to stick with what you know.
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




Sure. The table and the background don't really reflect each other well.

Chaos marines are scavengers and some are going to be more than willing to pick up whatever comes to hand. The game simplifies and standardizes for the sake of playability.

Once upon a time (Rogue Trader) even loyalists had a random equipment table, and several weapons from shuriken catapults to shotguns came up as basic weapons for marines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/14 12:10:33


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




Exactly so. Shotguns are lower tech and easier to make and maintain than bolters if a chaos marine lacks the backing of a legion or big warband.

The official chaos RPG - Black Crusade - had a chaos marine character 'class', the forsaken, whose standard weaponry was a space-marine-calibre-shotgun rather than a bolter for precisely this reason.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/black-crusade/news/archetypes/Forsaken.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj16cji5f3vAhUFqXEKHQCqCNkQFjAAegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw38EnbKIhX2YDZ1EXX4Zfzh

Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
Made in gb
Thinking of Joining a Davinite Loge





Forsaken are the dregs of the Black Legion who fail in battle. They are almost as low as Cultists in ranking and serve only to die at the whim of a Warband leader. Bolters are a dime a dozen in the galaxy and a CSM is more likely to come across ammo, parts or even a whole new weapon than a shotgun as useful as his Bolter. A Bolter can be retooled into any number of configurations and are a much superior weapon in range, stopping power, and flexibility. A shotgun is exclusively a close-range weapon and while it can be loaded with different ammo, it will always be a close-range weapon.
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon




San Jose, CA

I'm sure a Marine has a shotgun for "close encounters"
   
Made in gb
Thinking of Joining a Davinite Loge





Why would they need one? A Bolter is a rapid-fire miniature rocket launcher. Most Marines also carry a Combat Knife, a footlong adamantium blade often with a serrated edge. If not a Combat Knife then a Chainsword, which I believe needs no explanation, or a Boltpistol sidearm, another micro rocket launcher. Again, shotguns are cool but compared to even basic Marine equipment, they are next to useless.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





CSM aren’t a shambolic low tech force that has lost touch with the imperiums technology. No matter how many pointy sticks they glue to their armour.

The imperium ha largely relied entirely in on tech that they don’t understand and was developed 1000’s of years ago.

Stealing manufacturing plants and enslaving the workforce that know how to use them is one way CSM do it. But they still have their tech marines and they are free from the imperiums dogma surrounding forbidden technology. And then there is the dark mechanicus.
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





Boom, melon-fether.

Spoiler:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/15 03:04:09


 
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 Gert wrote:
Why would they need one? A Bolter is a rapid-fire miniature rocket launcher. Most Marines also carry a Combat Knife, a footlong adamantium blade often with a serrated edge. If not a Combat Knife then a Chainsword, which I believe needs no explanation, or a Boltpistol sidearm, another micro rocket launcher. Again, shotguns are cool but compared to even basic Marine equipment, they are next to useless.


Because the lost raiders and renegades angle loses a whole lot of impact if they're just perfectly supplied marines just like all the other ones, ready and waiting for their war of vengeance of 10,000 years.

It certain isn't how they're described in the background fiction, where they often are scavengers, scroungers and raiders. Fierce but degenerate compared to what they once were.


Bolters are supposed to be rare and impressive, NOT dime-a-dozen.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Thinking of Joining a Davinite Loge





Bolters aren't rare weapons though. Space Marines, SoB, the Inquisition, Arbites, Astra Militarum, heck even Gangs and Enforcers on Necromunda use them. CSM are the dark mirror to loyalist Astartes, they didn't leave their Bolters behind when they turned traitor or forget how to maintain their weapons, except maybe the World Eaters but I think they just strapped big spikes on them and turned them into CCW. There are also numerous Forge Worlds in the Eye space and the Maelstrom where weapons like Bolters are manufactured. CSM aren't so disjointed and un-unified that they don't have pacts of alliance with such worlds. Ghalmek is famous for being the Forge World of the Word Bearers. CSM are also a lot less particular about where a weapon comes from. A loyalist would never use an ex-Chaos Bolter but a CSM would have no issue prying one from the hands of a defeated loyalist along with his ammo, knife, skull, other bones, helmet etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/15 03:51:41


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





I doubt a CSM could use a bolter made for a human, it’d be more like a bolt pistol in his hands.

GW have not done a good job of consistently depicting CSM but the black legion have a totally different setup to the remnants of a former loyalist chapter on the other side of the galaxy
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Veteran Marine with Tentacles




Admittedly, a lot of the inspiration came from Gears of War... in fact I am already trying to imagine an excuse for a chaos space marine wielding a revolver type pistol already, like imagining the revolver being a simpler, more reliable, easier to maintain, and even easier to use equivalent of the bolt pistol with a bigger caliber bolt to compensate for the lower rate of fire and magazine size...

Pretty sure that berserker terminator is using a combibolter but I admire where your heart is. I can understand the point that a shotgun aside from looking cool would have limited uses to a marine. I figure a shotgun would have the distinct advantage of causing minimal damage to the hull integrity of a ship, if the hull wasn't designed to take the abusive and repetitive force of mini rockets colliding and exploding from within the relatively highly pressurized ship. Granted that the relative force being exerted on the hull of the ship must be massive and the explosions from the minirockets must barely tickle the ship.

Of another note would be that bolters may have a minimum effective range, both for the safety of the marine as well as the rocket actually propelling itself and reaching a sufficient velocity. Then again, I also have a minimal understanding of the process a bolt undergoes from the moment the marine presses the trigger up until the point that the warhead triggers the delay timer to explode the bolt within the target.

Also also, rule of cool? We literally have engines that pull spacecraft into the same dimension that daemons come from and spit the space craft back out in the real dimension, amongst other crazy over the top technologies. Some sort of archeotech shotgun capable of turning a power armored marine into red mist or simply able to blend swarms of humans into something that resembles ground beef can't be that far outside the realm of possibilities or imaginations of all the creative minds behind the fabrication of this wonderfully fun to explore universe.

The answer I seem to be getting rather unanimously from both sides of the argument appears to be that it is poorly supported in fluff, that loyalists do in fact use them via the deathwatch only because of how much more useful they are to a space marine with specialist ammo and such things probably require more training than simply learning how to make the bolter go brrrr. And the only cited publication that mentions chaos space marines using them is likely noncanon anyways, as the dark heresy tabletop was made independently of GW (outside of getting the license to make a tabletop RPG on GW's IP).

As much as I want an excuse to try to model a chaos space marine with a shotgun, a lot of the points being made is based on how individuals imagine the universe in 40k, and I do respect the whole "you imagine your fictional grim dark future however you like and you imagine whatever you would like for your plastic soldiers." So I'm probably doing it anyways.

Thank you all for your input though!

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





TBF I am upraised there isn't a sci fi version of the shot gun in common use somewhere in 40k, considering its common place in FPS gaming

although its nice to see GW avoid a sci fi cliche

however some sort of flechette weapon would be an interesting Warner option for war talons
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 Gert wrote:
Bolters aren't rare weapons though. Space Marines, SoB, the Inquisition, Arbites, Astra Militarum, heck even Gangs and Enforcers on Necromunda use them.


You're conflating common-in-game with common-in-universe.

Even with the stupid proliferation of weapon profiles (30+types of bolt weapons), there's only so much you can do with weapon profiles and GW also wants a 'signature weapon' that stands out.

The reality of the 40k universe is very different- think of the multitude of modern weapons and manufacturers we have and multiply that by thousands of worlds.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Thinking of Joining a Davinite Loge





I'm not saying Boltguns are common because there are loads of weapon profiles, I'm saying they're common because all the major fighting forces of the Imperium and Chaos use them. There are more Guardsmen than Space Marines but that doesn't mean a CSM will start using a Lasgun just because they're readily available.
Renegade Chapters and smaller Warbands certainly may struggle with supplies but the more unified forces i.e. the majority of the Traitor Legions, their allies, and chapters like the Red Corsairs, aren't running short of supplies. Worlds like Ghalmek, Sarum, Xana II, and Gallium all provide weapons for the Legions and many will have worlds with factories dedicated to weapon production. Many Legions also hold vast territories in both Realspace and the Warp. For example, the Scourge Stars are a large realm carved out by the Death Guard in Ultima Segmentum and the Maelstrom is almost exclusively the domain of Huron Blackheart and his Corsairs. Some warbands don't even need to produce weapons like Bolter *cough*Noise Marines*cough*.
   
Made in us
Ground Crew




New Hampshire

Recon Marines had them in the Heresy, and Bolter Rounds for shotguns are a thing, so I see no problem with a Veteran of the Long War having kept hit trusty recon shotgun. Saw him through the Siege of Terra and the Scouring, had some good times. Rules wise, just count it as a bolter, and move along.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 Gert wrote:
Why would they need one? A Bolter is a rapid-fire miniature rocket launcher. Most Marines also carry a Combat Knife, a footlong adamantium blade often with a serrated edge. If not a Combat Knife then a Chainsword, which I believe needs no explanation, or a Boltpistol sidearm, another micro rocket launcher. Again, shotguns are cool but compared to even basic Marine equipment, they are next to useless.


Why are you comparing a bolter with a shotgun instead of a Astartes Shotgun? If a bolter is destructive I cannot imagine what an astartes shotgun would do to anyone in close quarters.

Also is not like a chaos marine could have both a bolter and a shotgun, or maybe he just likes shotguns.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/15 17:26:07


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Galas wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Why would they need one? A Bolter is a rapid-fire miniature rocket launcher. Most Marines also carry a Combat Knife, a footlong adamantium blade often with a serrated edge. If not a Combat Knife then a Chainsword, which I believe needs no explanation, or a Boltpistol sidearm, another micro rocket launcher. Again, shotguns are cool but compared to even basic Marine equipment, they are next to useless.


Why are you comparing a bolter with a shotgun instead of a Astartes Shotgun? If a bolter is destructive I cannot imagine what an astartes shotgun would do to anyone in close quarters.

Also is not like a chaos marine could have both a bolter and a shotgun, or maybe he just likes shotguns.


Is an astartes shotgun a thing?
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





yes, recon marines.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-PL/Legion-MKIV-Recon-Squad

Yes, they are large shotguns.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.



Also scout use astartes shotguns.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Galas wrote:


Also scout use astartes shotguns.


And the Deathwatch as well.
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut






Ok, from what i remember a bolter is a simple weapon, yes.

it's the ammunition that's a SOB's mother to make. i know that bolter shells are 'mass reactive', WTF that means.

In one 40k novel they used the term "mass reactive" about every other page it felt like.

I mean i guess it means that she shell reacts to mass, but so what? A snowball "reacts" to the mass of a wall by splattering against it.

Ok, supposedly it means the explosive core reacts to mass by detonating inside it after the shape charge penetrates the tip.

So you have a kicker charge for initial acceleration, a solid fuel rocket engine for acceleration, a shaped charge tip that penetrated armor while the rocket engine keeps the thrust of the shaped charge from throwing the shell off course and an explosive core with a 'mass reactive' detonator.

Now compare that to a modern bullet or shotgun shell. Yes a bolter may be fairly simple but those rounds....yeesh.

No wonder orks quit using bolters in like 3E...



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/16 18:43:03


"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







 Matt Swain wrote:

So you have a kicker charge for initial acceleration, a solid fuel rocket engine for acceleration, a shaped charge tip that penetrated armor while the rocket engine keeps the thrust of the shaped charge from throwing the shell off course and an explosive core with a 'mass reactive' detonator.


You can make anything sound overly complicated.

Put it plainly: A shell that launches when you strike one end, and blows up when the front of it hits something hard.

If you think that sounds complicated, or unreliable, you'd be intimidated by how fireworks work.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





It doesn’t matter how complicated it is the STC exists widely across the imperium
   
Made in gb
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







When did bolt rounds get shaped charges installed? I though they were kinetic penetrators an Explosive payload.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Veteran Marine with Tentacles




I mean relatively speaking, putting a time delay fuse to give the bolt round time to penetrate before detonating, putting a rocket on it to propel it, and stabilizing fins on each round is a hell of a lot more complicated than shoving propellant and projectiles into a metal casing. The process is so basic you can do it at home right now. The concept of bolter rounds aren’t new; the concept has been proposed, experimented with, and ultimately considered a failure because stabilizing a projectile like that is incredibly difficult, and making it fit in a magazine is even more so.

Lexicanum’s page stated that bolter ammo needs to be manufactured in specialized workshops. This is fairly consistent with the aforementioned description. Each bolt would require nearly flawless precision in manufacturing. Modern day fireworks do not have the precision of a bolt round, nor are they fired from a single barreled gun.

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







Lexicanum's explanation. Which of the GW sources are they quoting?

The Boltgun is a weapon introduced for a game started 25 years ago, and has been described by people writing for the game who have no idea what would actually be plausible for how it would work. This is the explanation for everything wrong with the description.

Disclaimer: Next, ask "Where does a Space Marine keep their spare ammo?" Or object to the Imperial Guard and their "Just throw your ammo in the fire to recharge" lasguns.

Edit: For the record, the citation on Lexican is the third edition rulebook, page 60. That book was published in 1998. What do you think thirteen years of Handwavium decay did to that rulebook filler page? If someone had a plausible, defensible explanation of how bolters worked, you'd find it in one of the RPG books.

But, still. These people can make an ammo pack for a lasgun that you can throw into a fire to recharge. So why don't you think they can make practical gyrojet ammo? It's both just a machine to make ammo maintained by the fancy dudes.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/19 01:20:06


 
   
Made in au
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





 Gert wrote:
Bolters are noted as being very easy to manufacture and IMO more effective overall than shotguns. Micro-RPG vs big shotgun basically.
Deathwatch shotguns are designed with specialist ammo and certain missions in mind. A CSM might take one if they beat a DW Marine but when they're out of ammo it's useless. As for Recon Marines and Scouts, CSM tend to use cultists in these roles even if they are really bad at it.
Shotguns have a cool factor for sure but when most of your gear is scavenged/possessed by demons, it's best to stick with what you know.


Doesn't the main complexity of a bolter come in the actual ammo? Besides that the most complex thing on a bolt gun seems to be the occasional optics that connect up to the marines helmet. Otherwise they're pretty robust, marines do use them as clubs from time to time after all.
   
 
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