Switch Theme:

New player needs advice  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in ca
Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




Fields of Nowhere, WA

Moved from my introduction post -

It has been quite a while since I've played any sort of tabletop wargame and even longer since I've had to look at the somewhat overwhelming task of building an army from scratch (Warhammer Fantasy Battles 5e to be exact). I got the Command Edition starter set for 40k because the friend that I am going into the hobby with wants to do Necrons and I want to do Space Marines, specifically the Salamanders chapter. I was hoping to get some ideas as to where to go in terms of models to pick up. I am fine with mixing normal Space Marines with Primaris (and honestly I'm not seeing a huge difference between the two stats-wise) so I know I want to pick up a basic Tactical Squad, but after that I have no clue as to how I should expand. I know I want to go heavy on plasma and flamers because, well... Salamanders, but other than that, there are so many options for Space Marines that it's honestly a little daunting. My friend has NEVER been into the hobby though he has had a long term interest in it due to video games like Dawn of War, so any tips as to what he should get next would also be appreciated.

Thanks in advance for any aid you can provide us.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Start by playing Kill Team. A full-size 40k army is a huge investment of time and money, and you may find you don't actually like the game very much; Kill Team lets you get on the table rolling dice much faster and lets you try out the system with a lot less time, space, and stuff. You can also hop forces by buying a couple of boxes if you don't like how something plays instead of feeling trapped by having bought thousands of dollars of stuff before you got to see if you actually liked the army or not, and the updates are less frequent and less dramatic, so you'll have a more stable experience rather than needing to worry about whether something's going to get nerfed right after you buy it or whether the new book is going to require you to spend lots of money on new stuff to keep up with the power creep.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/16 03:40:49


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Given he's already got the rules for 40k, I'm not sure how recommending a different set of rules is the best idea.

Better to start with small games of 40k (I always liked 850 points as an interesting starting point), and testing out to see what you like.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







I suggest Kill Team because I find that the core rules for 40k don't scale all that well; 500-1,000pt games are even more prone to being decided by who bought the wrong miniatures and who went first than a full 2,000pt game is, and depending on the army that can still be a pretty considerable investment.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





I would recommend Crusade- start with 25 power level.

Play to the Agendas rather than trying your hardest to kill each other.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






I am no marine player or expert - But I think getting your marines some transports couldint hurt. Either impulsor for for primaris or rhino (the budget option) for marines or maybe a drop pod. See whatevers cheapest on ebay. Rules change but transports usualy have a place in most armies. If you only after the killy kind of marine thought based on current rules, Id look at inceptors or eradicators. OR anything cheap that can have a MM strapped to it. I.e. Attack bike/ speeders. Bear in mind this options does not necessary has longegivity. Rules change. Points change. So those attack bikes, eradicators or inceptors might not be as efficient in a few months time.

To summarise. Get whatever model/ unit you like the look of the most and you wnat to use. If its drops pods, rhinos or killy stuff. Chances are this time next year the rules might be compleetly different so whatever is recomended now will no longer work.


As for your friends necrons?
He should absolutely just get what he thinks looks the coolest and what lore he likes the most of. And tailor games to be even footing if he happens to pick objectivly poor quality units. In a friendly games brining units because you like them, but suck, shouldn't mean you have no chance of winning but that's a dialogue you need to have with your opponent...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/16 04:34:10


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 LupercalOmega wrote:
Moved from my introduction post -

It has been quite a while since I've played any sort of tabletop wargame and even longer since I've had to look at the somewhat overwhelming task of building an army from scratch (Warhammer Fantasy Battles 5e to be exact). I got the Command Edition starter set for 40k because the friend that I am going into the hobby with wants to do Necrons and I want to do Space Marines, specifically the Salamanders chapter. I was hoping to get some ideas as to where to go in terms of models to pick up. I am fine with mixing normal Space Marines with Primaris (and honestly I'm not seeing a huge difference between the two stats-wise) so I know I want to pick up a basic Tactical Squad, but after that I have no clue as to how I should expand. I know I want to go heavy on plasma and flamers because, well... Salamanders, but other than that, there are so many options for Space Marines that it's honestly a little daunting. My friend has NEVER been into the hobby though he has had a long term interest in it due to video games like Dawn of War, so any tips as to what he should get next would also be appreciated.

Thanks in advance for any aid you can provide us.


Start with a look at what you've each got. You've got about 350 points based on a quick search of what's in the Command Edition - Cap, 5 Assault Intercessors, 3 Outriders. He's got about 395. You're both at bare minimum for Troops choices. I'd aim both of you at 2HQ and 3 Troops first that's the bare minimum for a Battalion Force Org Chart - what you'll most likely be using between 1,000 and 2,000 points. Some armies might use a Brigade or a Batallion but most games of most armies will use at least one of those two detachments. I just mentioned to someone else, a Middling cost Cap, LT, and three 10 man troops (Intercessors, Assault Intercessors, Tac Squad with 10 point Special and 10 point Heavy) will ding 775 points. That will be both troop "heavy" at 1,000 and leave you 225 for "toys" be it Aggressors, Terminators, a Command Squad, elite support characters or what have you. As you add the third and fourth 500ish points to get to 2,000 (what used to be a typical game size) Just about everything you add can be "toys". At 1,000 you could also shrink your troop choices (from 10 to 5 or inbetween) to fit in toy units.

The game has somewhat morphed in that you don't win by killing the other guy's models. Its objective based, and (for the most part) troops are the choice to sit on/defend objectives to claim them.

Tanks and Transports are in a bad spot right now. They changed how vehicles work and they didn't do very well yet. I wouldn't call the Drop Pod a transport though. Only First Gen marines can use them, but they're not horrible. I personally don't think transports are faster enough with lost turns than advancing the flootsloggers into position. Even if your Rhino/Impulsor doesn't get shot to pieces before you drive up to where you want to drop the unit, the unit is all but paralyzed in place for a turn if they're a choppy unit (and most shooty units don't need the ride in the first place) all for the bargain price of about half again what you spent on the unit. The board got smaller too - If you're looking for some sort of backfield rusher you're better off with a pod, speeder, or bikes which can now get further (relatively speaking) and act each turn in a game that also got at least 1 turn shorter. Games are now 5 turns instead of 6 or more, meaning giving up that turn on disembarking is even more painful. Also the board is (supposed to be) even smaller if you're playing less than the 1,000-2,000 size.

So yeah:

First
Aim for 2HQ and 3 Max Troops.
Second:
Aim for 1,000 points if you aren't there already.
Third
Add "toys" to 1,500
Next:
Add toys to 2,000
Finally
Start getting a "sideboard" of units- including alternate troop choices - to swap in and out to change things up.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






Adding another troop choice each where I'd go next. A tactical squad is a great move, and you can always split it into two combat teams (5-models each).

For the Necroes maybe pick up a unit of immortals (also troops) for some variability.

I'd work on just getting about a 500-point army assembled based on the starter kit + one other model kit each and playing some small combat patrol missions to get to your feet wet with the basic gameplay mechanics.

Want a better 40K?
Check out ProHammer: Classic - An Awesomely Unified Ruleset for 3rd - 7th Edition 40K... for retro 40k feels!
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




First and most important rule...."buy the models you like the best" rules and editions change, but a model you like will always be a model you like.

Second and most important rule "always remember forums are often heavily weighted towards competitive tournament play so always adjust down if you are just playing casually with friends (eg, I would never take my Tervigon to a tournament, but its a staple of my crusade list)

Saying that, almost everyone eventually finds there are certain ways of playing they are drawn to more than others and naturally gravitate to units that promote that style (will this mean you end up owning models that you dont regularly use in games? YES, but this happens to EVERYONE so always remeber..its still a cool model I like to own)

Generally however, for a beginner, i would recommend getting a few games in with what you have, then look to get a unit from each force organisation slot (eg: hq, elite, fast attack etc) that you don't have based on which models from each section you or your friend like the best (i.e. dont try to get him/her/them to buy models they dont like. As a complete newbie to actually collecting, the range of options can be daunting so just get what you like best)

P.S. Pretty much any marine unit is decent/good (tanks are ok really, just not powerful enough for competitve tournament play) Necrons? Ive only just (as in a month ago started collecting them so I am just as clueless) I think maybe one of the faster units could help mix things up? Tomb Blades maybe?


   
Made in us
Stalwart Space Marine





South Carolina, USA

Check 1d4chan.org for descriptions of the various Space Marine units and a brief, usually informative, often crass, possibly offensive, description of their abilities and rough estimation of their value.

Extremely useful site.

Squats 2020! 
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot



Canada

 LupercalOmega wrote:
Moved from my introduction post -

It has been quite a while since I've played any sort of tabletop wargame and even longer since I've had to look at the somewhat overwhelming task of building an army from scratch (Warhammer Fantasy Battles 5e to be exact). I got the Command Edition starter set for 40k because the friend that I am going into the hobby with wants to do Necrons and I want to do Space Marines, specifically the Salamanders chapter. I was hoping to get some ideas as to where to go in terms of models to pick up. I am fine with mixing normal Space Marines with Primaris (and honestly I'm not seeing a huge difference between the two stats-wise) so I know I want to pick up a basic Tactical Squad, but after that I have no clue as to how I should expand. I know I want to go heavy on plasma and flamers because, well... Salamanders, but other than that, there are so many options for Space Marines that it's honestly a little daunting. My friend has NEVER been into the hobby though he has had a long term interest in it due to video games like Dawn of War, so any tips as to what he should get next would also be appreciated.

Thanks in advance for any aid you can provide us.


Welcome aboard!

My first advice is to play through the missions in the starter set to get the mechanics down.

For your next model steps, a Tactical Squad is a good choice. This would expand your Patrol Detachment and give you some variety of weapons to check out. A Dreadnought or ATV could be a fun modeling experience while introducing some "big models." As a Salamander an Eradicator Squad would be a solid Heavy Support choice in terms of theme and effectiveness. The Eradicator are nasty, so take that advice with caution if its just you and your friend playing.

Your Necron friend could look at getting something shooty - a Doomstalker or Heavy Destroyer. Another Warrior Squad is never a bad choice - you and he could split a Recruit Edition to add a Lieutenant and additional Intercessor Assault Squad to you and a Warrior Squad, Royal Warden and more wonderful Scarabs for your friend. I can't recommend the Recruit Edition enough to bulk out starting forces!

Have fun!

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





princeyg wrote:
First and most important rule...."buy the models you like the best" rules and editions change, but a model you like will always be a model you like.



This mostly applies to the what I called the "toy" choices. GW tends to improve and nerf armies and units from edition to edition. Sometimes its pretty obvious they want to generate sales. Sometimes they're trying to re-introduce a game mechanic they just can't get right but really want to. Sometimes they just rewrote the rules for a new edition and royally... well they did poorly.

I haven't yet seen an edition that dramatically changed what most of us would refer to as "compulsory" choices. Every edition I've seen since 2nd had some sort of formula strongly encouraging what we'd call the 1 HQ + 2/3 Troops compulsory choice(Lately it's been called "Battle Forged" which gives you some bells and whistles like Command Points for Stratagems). In 2nd Ed you had to have at least 1HQ, and at least 50% in troops. Once they started doing Force Org Charts with battlefield Roles 1HQ and 2-3 Troop choices became pretty normal. This is why you're seeing so many people suggest specifically a Tac Squad, or generic Troop choices.

Look on Page 248 of the Rulebook that came with your starter set. I'm assuming they still come with the big hard cover edition like the Indomitus Box did. It's about 56 pages into the section of the rules about Building an Army Battle Forged Armies. Right now you're both using Combat Patrols with compulsory choices of 1 HQ and 1 Troop. 1HQ tile and 1 Troop tile are red, while the other tiles representing potential choices are greyish black. With both of your armies having similar point per model prices both of you will LIKELY go into the Battalion right below it that has two Red HQ and 3 Red Troop - meaning you need 2 HQs and 3 Troops.

That's the norm based on this reasoning - say you're playing 2,000 points. You get to start with 12 Command Points as a Battle Forged Army. Each Detachment you add to your army costs you command points. The Detachment with your Warlord usually refunds its cost. I.e. you get 12 for 2000, battle forged, you pay 3 for a Battalion, you get 3 back for having your Warlord in your Battalion, you end up with 12.

Say you buy a second starter set (or an Indomitus Box that you'd have to get from a second hand retailer) so you both end up with a rule book and get some more models (Not a terrible idea- the overlap models may or may not wipe out the discount for a boxed set I don't know, you'd have to do the math) You'd have 2HQ (more really) but still two Troops. So you'd start with 12 points for a 2000 pooint batle forged Army. You'd pay 2 for your first Patrol Det, down to 10. You'd pay 2 for your second Patrol Det, down to 8. You'd get back two for ONE of your Patrol Dets with your Warlord, back up to 10.

At 500 points you pretty much want to play with a Patrol. At 1,000 you're probably on the edge of either or with your army choice pushing you one way. At 1500+ you're almost definitely in the Batallion (barring funky sub-faction armies like the Dark Angels Wings, or Eldar Wild Riders, etc that need to use alternate Dets).

I suppose one question we all forgot to ask is how big do you want to go? We're all assuming you're aiming for some sort of 1500-2000ish point zone. If you're going to cap at 1,000 instead of your starter set 500ish the answers may be a LITTLE different. You're still in (almost dire) need of troops. You have the minimum 1 troop choice, and it's minimum sized.

People are kind of debating right now between whats called multiple small unit (or MSU) and fewer but larger units because GW just rewrote the rules to get rid of blast/template markers (see through plastic pieces designed to simulate an explosion of cone of flame etc) into a BLAST rule which can penalize you for having 1 unit of 10 guys instead of 2 units of 5 guys. That's one of the rules that will ebb and flow from edition to edition. Plus your many of your Marines can be chosen as a group of 10 guys and operate as two units of 5 guys. The benefit of larger units is in the scoring of the game, 20 guys beats 1 guy for "Controlling an objective". 1 Guy with Objective Secured (most of the Troops guys) beats 20 guys without it. 20 guys with Objective Secured beats almost everybody when it comes to Controlling the Objective. Of course 2 groups of 5 guys with Objective Secured ties 1 group of 10 guys. 1 Group of 10 guys protects a character (Look Out Sir!) arguably better than 2 groups of 5 Guys

Say you're both contesting the same objective. He has 10 warriors, you have 5 Assault Intercessors. (Assuming all 15 models can get within the 3 inch or so radius to contest the objective - they probably can't but how many of which group is going to change from game to game based on the scenario of who got there first/better - so all things being equal) you have to kill 5 of his warriors without losing an Intercessor just to tie.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in ca
Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




Fields of Nowhere, WA

Okay lots of replies to answer, thanks for the responses guys!

Kill Team - It looks interesting but my main love is doing big armies in games that can last for an entire afternoon. I might look into it as a testing ground for other armies in the future, that is if the armies/teams play similarly enough between the two games.

Okay as to the other stuff. I am hoping to have my friend over in a week or so so we can go through the "tutorial missions" that are in the book that came with the boxed set. In the long-term I do plan on doing objective based play, mainly looking at Matched Play since my prior experience is in that range, plus it looks like it's MUCH easier to fill out say 500 points than it is to get to 50 power rating. So the need to buy less models right away which is good since I have to pac emyself monetarily. And befor eanyone says something - yes, I knew getting into it what the costs would be money-wise. Doesn't mean I can't start small and build up over time rather than dropping 300 dollars on it all at once. Looking at some options I can just get the Tac Squad alone and easily fill out 500 points with what I already have with character options, weapon upgrades and the like. So it's a start at least. I do plan on going up for a full 1,500 - 2,000 points eventually.

For my friend, I'll give him the advice here - another group of Warriors, the Doomstalker or the Heavy Destroyer unless he likes the look of something else.

Overall I'm not looking to be competitive in the extreme, just want to get it off the ground so we can play some baseline games to get used to the rules. In time though? Yeah. I'd like to do some of the local tournaments eventually. From what I understand MSU is the way to go for Salamanders as it stands at the moment. Not sure on Necrons but I haven't been researching that a lot since we haven't even had our tutorial games yet but I do want to eventually so I can help my buddy out as much as possible. For me though, I'm a planner so I want to have a plan of action in my head in terms of what to buy next so I can get a buy list ready to go - that way I know exactly what I'm looking for in the store.

Again, thanks for all the replies and the help in this whole thing. You gusy definitely helpe dmake this a lot less daunting overall!
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 LupercalOmega wrote:
500 points than it is to get to 50 Power Level


Don't get too hung up on that. There's a LITTLE variation but generally speaking 1 power level will work out to about 20 points. There are ways to really skew that by maxing out per model upgrades in things like Vanguard Vet Squads - you might get 10 Jump packers with bolt pistol and chain sword for 11 power level or 200ish points (I'm guestimating to make the point those probably aren't the real numbers) - or you could get 10 jump packers with Thunder hammer and Storm Shield for 11 power level or 350ish points. That's the extreme example, and you'd really really have to work on it to take "advantage" of that kind of thing. Especially when you add your next unit that might be 8 power level but 150 points. Its a rough parallel but not exact.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!






You say you like Plasma and want to go heavy on it. Why not a box of Hellblasters down the line? A unit that armed entirely with plasma guns. Maybe see if your friend will let you sub in the tacticals you plan to buy as them for a game or two to see if you like them before committing. Would be a waste to buy them only to find out you dislike them after all.
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain







I'd recommend sticking to the primaris models at this point. Old marines look weird and runty next to them, and it is unclear how long they will even be supported. Get a box of intercessors or infiltrators (which make two five man troop squads) and one character you like; this allows you to fill the requirements of a battalion.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Important question - how do you envision your army playing?

Do you want to be sneaky, up close and personal, destructive at range, or a mix?

What draws you to Salamanders?


   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot



Canada

Follow your gut - it is not important to know why you are drawn to a particular faction or unit. A Salamander Tactical Squad with a Flamer and Multi-Melta will be flexible, thematic and let you personalize a bit.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






For starters I recommend Devastators. The box comes with two of each heavy weapon available to standard Marines. Two boxes gets you

4 Lascannons
4 Multimeltas
4 Missile Launches
4 Grav Cannons
4 Plasma Cannons
4 Heavy Bolters

A fantastic arsenal to distribute capability to your other first(true)born squads, and enough of each to make focused Devastator Squads. My armies have largely used just Tactical and Devastator boxes for their bulk. You can assemble Tacs, Devs, Command, and Sternguard with the two kits. This will give you a lot of flexibility in your collection pretty quick. (You can build Lts, Captains and other models too if you get creative. You can build non-Jump Pack Vanguard Vets by combining the various CC weapons into one group of models.)

Primaris seem specifically designed to avoid this flexibility. You can't build anything other than Hellblasters with the Hellblaster Kit, for example. You're stuck with plasma with Hellblasters. You can only build Eradicators with the Eradicatir kit, etc.

The other box I'd recommend is the Company Command box. That'll get you more Special Weapons, and parts for Captains, Ancient, Lts, Apothecary, Company Champion. As a bonus to the flexibility, check out the price. A Command box costs $50 and gets you up to 6 Characters. A single Primaris Apothecary costs $35!!!


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: