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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




While the codex is still relatively new, it’s pretty apparent that the army is wildly OP . Currently sitting at a 58-18-2 or a 74% winrate (numbers stolen from a reddit post). That puts the codex at a tournament win % at around what ironhands were getting pre-any nerfs. No that’s not an exaggeration, iron hands had around a 77% win rate when their codex first dropped, meaning drukhari are only slightly worse than that book.

Some of the comes from them being a hard counter to SM (which for now make up a significant chunk of the meta) and some of that comes from armies having not adjusted to the way drukhari plays. That said it’s a lot harder to adjust to a 70% win rate army than a 60% army, because there are less weaknesses in a 70% win rate army.

So will GW nerf Drukhari. They probably should. Invalidating SM entirely might make some here on Dakka happy, but probably isn’t in the best interest of GWs $$$ line. Also many armies simply don’t have fun playing against DE. Maybe Tau like the matchup, but that by itself won’t fix that army.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The stupid bajillion attack Succubus will get nerfed in the FAQ, not even GW is silly enough to think that interaction is really ok. That may tone things down a bit.

After that, give it some time and things will probably balance out a bit. Or else the next codex will just be even more broken and everyone will forget about Drukhari because Ad Mech will be even more problematic.

If Drukhari really stay above 70% win rate obviously GW will do something about it sooner or later.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




yukishiro1 wrote:
The stupid bajillion attack Succubus will get nerfed in the FAQ, not even GW is silly enough to think that interaction is really ok.

This is the same rules team that gave us things like Scatterbikes, Castellans lasting several months longer than they should have, and the incredibly play tested Iron Hands supplement.

Trust me when I say they're grossly incompetent and nothing is shocking to me anymore. What IS shocking is people still defending them when we catch these rules Day 1 of release (and hell, even BEFORE release when we get leaks).

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm the last person to defend GW's "release it broke then let the community fix it" approach. That we expect them to release broken nonsense and consider it a victory if it's fixed within a month sorta says it all re: how low our collective expectations are.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





yukishiro1 wrote:
The stupid bajillion attack Succubus will get nerfed in the FAQ, not even GW is silly enough to think that interaction is really ok. That may tone things down a bit.


In addition the reavers will be going to 20 points. I don't think this particular period is necessarily emblematic of the codex as those two things make for pretty wild lists.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Nobody's been actually playing with 10 point Reavers. At least I really hope no TO has been gutless enough to allow that...
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





yukishiro1 wrote:
I'm the last person to defend GW's "release it broke then let the community fix it" approach. That we expect them to release broken nonsense and consider it a victory if it's fixed within a month sorta says it all re: how low our collective expectations are.


So, which things from DG, BA, DW, SW, Necrons have been hilariously OP?

Or is a single model with a specific setup really the only dead horse we're beating here?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Nobody's been actually playing with 10 point Reavers. At least I really hope no TO has been gutless enough to allow that...


No idea. Research time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 01:19:05


   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Daedalus81 wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
I'm the last person to defend GW's "release it broke then let the community fix it" approach. That we expect them to release broken nonsense and consider it a victory if it's fixed within a month sorta says it all re: how low our collective expectations are.


So, which things from DG, BA, DW, SW, Necrons have been hilariously OP?...


"Broken" can also mean "wildly underpowered and pointless". Personally I'm of the opinion that playing Deathwatch is quite similar to playing Space Marines with no Chapter Tactics right now.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





- Still nobody has provided me with a single streamed game where Space Marines beat Drukhari. Not one. Please show me, I'm waiting. There are plenty of new Drukhari games online.

- Here are BCP stats from the last week, my source is Art of War. Drukhari were 58 - 18 - 2. That's a 74% winrate.

- In that week 26 players took Drukhari. Of those, 13 went undefeated.


That's the post that the claim made. I just went through 4/11 to 4/17 and found no GTs. Of the 16 games I saw four DE in the top 10. Only one took first place with just two wins in a two round tournament.

I'll check this week and the week before that.

   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

yukishiro1 wrote:Nobody's been actually playing with 10 point Reavers. At least I really hope no TO has been gutless enough to allow that...

I would hope not, considering they already fixed that in the updated CA document.

AnomanderRake wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
I'm the last person to defend GW's "release it broke then let the community fix it" approach. That we expect them to release broken nonsense and consider it a victory if it's fixed within a month sorta says it all re: how low our collective expectations are.


So, which things from DG, BA, DW, SW, Necrons have been hilariously OP?...


"Broken" can also mean "wildly underpowered and pointless". Personally I'm of the opinion that playing Deathwatch is quite similar to playing Space Marines with no Chapter Tactics right now.

Sooo......Deathwatch are CSM now? Welcome aboard! Pick up your spikes to the left please.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




That's not the correct use of the term "dead horse."

But if you really want to get into it...even in 9th edition alone, we had a bunch of badly thought out or proofread stuff in the core rules (remember Daemon Prince Super Friends?), and initial 9th edition points were a joke too. Then Space Marines had the hilariously stupid Apothecary rezzing Primario cart fiasco. And that's just off the top of my head.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Some 10 point reavers:

Reavers [14 PL, 145pts]: *Random x 2* (Combat Drug), 3x Grav-talon
. Arena Champion: Splinter Rifle
. 6x Reaver: 6x Bladevanes, 6x Splinter Pistol, 6x Splinter Rifle
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat Lance
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat Lance
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat Lance


And some more:

Reavers [10 PL, 135pts]: *Random x 2* (Combat Drug), 3x Grav-talon
. Arena Champion: Splinter Rifle
. 5x Reaver: 5x Bladevanes, 5x Splinter Pistol, 5x Splinter Rifle
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat Lance
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat Lance
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat Lance




Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:
That's not the correct use of the term "dead horse."

But if you really want to get into it...even in 9th edition alone, we had a bunch of badly thought out or proofread stuff in the core rules (remember Daemon Prince Super Friends?), and initial 9th edition points were a joke too. Then Space Marines had the hilariously stupid Apothecary rezzing Primario cart fiasco. And that's just off the top of my head.


I expect you had to reach fairly deep for those, because those things didn't even impact the game ( thanks COVID ) and the points are still largely standing outside the obvious errors. Perhaps I am not recalling as much, because so few games were played?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Three evens 4/18 to 4/20.

One has no DE.

One has a 3rd place WWT with 10 point reavers

Reavers [10 PL, 120pts]: *Random x 2* (Combat Drug)
. Arena Champion: Heat Lance
. 6x Reaver: 6x Bladevanes, 6x Splinter Pistol, 6x Splinter Rifle
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat Lance
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat Lance

Reavers [10 PL, 120pts]: *Random x 2* (Combat Drug)
. Arena Champion: Heat Lance
. 6x Reaver: 6x Bladevanes, 6x Splinter Pistol, 6x Splinter Rifle
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat Lance
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat Lance


Off to 4/4 to 4/10.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/22 01:52:25


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Are you sure they didn't take less than 2000 points to make up for that? I.e. that it's not just how it's being displayed in the list software?

Anyone running 10 point reavers right now is not just "that guy," it's an actively illegal list. It's already been fixed. But I can't imagine any serious TO would have allowed it even back before it was fixed, it was so obviously a typo.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 01:56:30


 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

You're KIDDING ME! The date on that download is February 4th. That's over 2 months ago. What the hell are those TOs looking at?

Edit: Ok, that makes sense Yukishiro1.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/22 01:57:54


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I don't know for sure that's the case, just throwing out random ideas. I find it hard to believe anyone's really running 10 point reavers. I guess I could be wrong. It would make me sad though.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Here we go - Death or Glory Warhammer 40k TTS League: Season 3

4 DE in the top 10. 2 round tournament only one with a loss. Hilariously one had 10 point Reavers and one did not. If they didn't have 10 point Reavers they had Dark Lotus ( except the one with 20 point Reavers ).

That's kind of it. I don't know if Reavers or Dark Lotus won games, but I can't find the number of games referenced. Does anyone know of a GT or two?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:
I don't know for sure that's the case, just throwing out random ideas. I find it hard to believe anyone's really running 10 point reavers. I guess I could be wrong. It would make me sad though.


To get up to 78 games in a week they had to have pulled in RTTs, which are wild west territory. I can't seem to find any GTs other than the one above ( which is being played over 5 weeks ). This is the list from the one with 20 10 point reavers:


Spoiler:
++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [60 PL, -2CP, 780pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment Command Cost [-2CP]

Obsession: Cult of the Cursed Blade

+ Stratagems +

Prizes from the Dark City (1 Relic) [-1CP]

+ HQ +

Succubus [4 PL, -1CP, 75pts]: Agoniser, Archite Glaive, The Triptych Whip, Tolerated Ambition: Precision Blows. Show Stealer

+ Troops +

Wyches [3 PL, 50pts]
. Hekatrix: Hekatarii blade, Splinter pistol
. 4x Wych: 4x Hekatarii blade, 4x Splinter Pistol

Wyches [6 PL, 60pts]
. Hekatrix: Hekatarii blade, Splinter pistol
. 5x Wych: 5x Hekatarii blade, 5x Splinter Pistol

Wyches [6 PL, 60pts]
. Hekatrix: Hekatarii blade, Splinter pistol
. 5x Wych: 5x Hekatarii blade, 5x Splinter Pistol

+ Elites +

Mandrakes [4 PL, 75pts]
. 4x Mandrake: 4x Baleblast, 4x Glimmersteel blade
. Nightfiend

Mandrakes [4 PL, 75pts]
. 4x Mandrake: 4x Baleblast, 4x Glimmersteel blade
. Nightfiend

+ Fast Attack +

Reavers [14 PL, 145pts]: 3x Grav-Talon
. Arena Champion
. 6x Reaver: 6x Bladevanes, 6x Splinter pistol, 6x Splinter rifle
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat lance
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat lance
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat lance

Reavers [14 PL, 145pts]: 3x Grav-Talon
. Arena Champion
. 6x Reaver: 6x Bladevanes, 6x Splinter pistol, 6x Splinter rifle
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat lance
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat lance
. Reaver with special weapon (up to 1 for 3 models): Heat lance

+ Dedicated Transport +

Raider [5 PL, 95pts]: Dark Lance, Splinter Racks

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [66 PL, 14CP, 1,219pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

Obsession: *Custom Kabal*

Raiding Force

+ No Force Org Slot +

Court of the Archon [5 PL, 94pts]
. Medusae
. Sslyth
. Sslyth
. Sslyth
. Sslyth

+ HQ +

Archon [5 PL, 90pts]: Blast Pistol, Huskblade, The Djin Blade, Warlord, Hatred Eternal, Splintered Genius

Drazhar [6 PL, 135pts]

+ Troops +

Trueborn Kabalite Warriors [8 PL, 135pts]
. 6x Kabalite Warrior: 6x Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 50pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior: 3x Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 50pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior: 3x Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

+ Elites +

Incubi [4 PL, 80pts]
. 4x Incubi: 4x Klaive
. Klaivex: Demiklaives

+ Fast Attack +

Scourges [7 PL, 100pts]
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Solarite: Shardcarbine

Scourges [7 PL, 100pts]
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Blaster
. Solarite: Shardcarbine

+ Dedicated Transport +

Venom [4 PL, 80pts]: Grisly Trophies, Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

Venom [4 PL, 80pts]: Grisly Trophies, Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

Venom [4 PL, 75pts]: Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

Venom [4 PL, 75pts]: Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

Venom [4 PL, 75pts]: Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle

++ Total: [128 PL, 12CP, 1,999pts] ++

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/04/22 02:08:00


   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





Wait, I thought DA were OP, did we forget them already?
Its certainly too early to make a rational decision on them yet. People have yet to develop counters or seriously planned their lists around them. But they will.

Just fix the dumb things right now (razor flail succubus)
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 bullyboy wrote:
Wait, I thought DA were OP, did we forget them already?
Its certainly too early to make a rational decision on them yet. People have yet to develop counters or seriously planned their lists around them. But they will.

Just fix the dumb things right now (razor flail succubus)


In the original post they complained:

Still nobody has provided me with a single streamed game where Space Marines beat Drukhari. Not one. Please show me, I'm waiting. There are plenty of new Drukhari games online.


Which is a pretty narrow place to look and I'd wonder how much those DE won by.

My gut feeling is a lot of marines lists were really ill equipped to handle DE. How does one kill 20 wyches and a succubus before they get to you when all you have is assault termies and MM ABs?

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 bullyboy wrote:
Wait, I thought DA were OP, did we forget them already?
Its certainly too early to make a rational decision on them yet. People have yet to develop counters or seriously planned their lists around them. But they will.

Just fix the dumb things right now (razor flail succubus)


The difference between DA and this is people just. Assumed DA where good based on their rules alone. Once playtesting against them actually happened it became the apparent that their initial hype was overblown and the army was around a mid 50% win rate army at best.

Drukhari meanwhile have won in many events they’ve shown up in. Their win rate is far above 50%, even discounting 10 points reaver. A succubus nerf will help, but I doubt it fully solves the issue.



   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Salt donkey wrote:
Their win rate is far above 50%, even discounting 10 points reaver. A succubus nerf will help, but I doubt it fully solves the issue.


Can you help me find GTs where they won a lot? I'm having a hard time tracking any down in April.

   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






Salt donkey wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
Wait, I thought DA were OP, did we forget them already?
Its certainly too early to make a rational decision on them yet. People have yet to develop counters or seriously planned their lists around them. But they will.

Just fix the dumb things right now (razor flail succubus)


The difference between DA and this is people just. Assumed DA where good based on their rules alone. Once playtesting against them actually happened it became the apparent that their initial hype was overblown and the army was around a mid 50% win rate army at best.

Drukhari meanwhile have won in many events they’ve shown up in. Their win rate is far above 50%, even discounting 10 points reaver. A succubus nerf will help, but I doubt it fully solves the issue.





What events? And how many events have they won ?

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





What's next?

OP Sisters of Battle, followed closely by OP Orks, and so it continues.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






drbored wrote:
What's next?

OP Sisters of Battle, followed closely by OP Orks, and so it continues.


And before that, DG had a month of super-spiked winrate, and before that, DA had one, and before that, Necrons had one...

it's wild, it's almost like a new codex leads to new surprises that hit the meta hard until people adjust to it and then the winrate drops back down.

Should GW throw in a few more codexes where they actively choose not to give an army the means to compete in tournaments like DW, would that be an improvement in your eyes?

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

I know that Drukhari are Op right now, but I'm actually happy for them. They spent decades as GW's neglected stepchild. They deserve at least a couple months in the sun.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Actually Games-workshop engineered Covid, just so they could trick people into buying more product, ie give them the excuse to do a faction creep strategy
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

I'm noticing a pattern:

-New codex is announced. Previews and leaks trickle out: Players of faction lament "Oh no! We're going to suck! Why did they change that? And that?"

-Codex is leaked in full/released: Players of faction rejoice "This is great! We're actually good again! Huzzah!"

-Armies using new codex start showing up at tournaments and flgs: Meta is unprepared for army with new forms of offensive/defensive stats and abilities. Faction wins a lot. Players of other factions despair "OP! OP! OP! NERF! NERF! NEERRFF!"

-Meta adjusts to new codex. Win rate comes down to reasonable levels.

-New codex is announced.........
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Gadzilla, you aren't wrong, but I see it more as games-workshop teasing you with codex releases to key word "tempt" players to buy new armies. As each new army could easily generate 1k in revenue. The tease part is indicated in the slow and purposely rules updates/balance changes/ ie new codexes. I would even argue they can't even get simple stuff right, and are making all kinds of typos in their updates just to feign being dumb to fool us even more.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/22 03:37:08


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Argive wrote:
Salt donkey wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
Wait, I thought DA were OP, did we forget them already?
Its certainly too early to make a rational decision on them yet. People have yet to develop counters or seriously planned their lists around them. But they will.

Just fix the dumb things right now (razor flail succubus)


The difference between DA and this is people just. Assumed DA where good based on their rules alone. Once playtesting against them actually happened it became the apparent that their initial hype was overblown and the army was around a mid 50% win rate army at best.

Drukhari meanwhile have won in many events they’ve shown up in. Their win rate is far above 50%, even discounting 10 points reaver. A succubus nerf will help, but I doubt it fully solves the issue.





What events? And how many events have they won ?


Quite a few, I counted 3 from just this last weekend in a short amount of time. One of was a 21 man tournament (onslaught Gt qualifier). In fact anytime a Drukhari show up, there’s a nearly %100 shot they will at least end up in upper half of lists.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Give it a month and a few actual big events. If they're still performing similar a month from now - especially after the FAQ presumably fixes the dumbest thing in the book - it'll be fair to start concluding they really are a problem.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




In addition to drukhari being pretty good against marines and also being new (thus having a bit of a gotcha factor) and also having a couple obviously/probably broken things (flail succubus and reaver prices), I wonder if this is partly a matter of drukhari being the first 9th edition faction out that leans hard into offense at the cost of defense.

Necrons, DG, and marines in general are all factions that I associate with defense. Drukhari have poisoned weapons that don't care about the toughness of DG, elite 'crons, and gravis units. A lot of their D1 weapons became D2. They gained a few sources of mortal wounds, and some of their existing sources got a bit better. Units that would previously have been wounding necron warriors on 4+ or 5+ can now pretty reliably do so on a 3+ or 4+ instead, and they potentially have some bonus AP splashed in there as well.

So if your army has a lot of points invested in "shields" and drukhari are pretty good at being "shield breakers," you might be getting countered a little. But drukhari are also heckin' fragile. The changes to their defenses are either pretty horizontal or else a nerf (mostly in the case of coven units). So I'm wondering how things will look when we get some other offense-heavy factions that don't invest as heavily into defense as marines do. Maybe drukhari are kind of the paper to "tough armies'" rock waiting to meet their paper?

I don't know. Newkhari definitely got a pretty big power boost (kind of lazy design imo), but the only things that really jump out at me as being too good are the million attack succubus and the reavers. Take those away, and it seems like marines ought to be able to do okay against them. Bolters wound their vehicles on 5+ and reduce their saves to a 5+ on turns 2 and 3. Heavy bolters wound their transports on a 4+ and each failed 5+ invul takes away 1/3rd of a venom's health. It feels like things ought to shake out reasonably evenly between these factions. Except 'crons. Drukhari seem well-equipped to handle those guys.
   
 
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