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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





So it seems CSM may be further out, but maybe we'll catch an index or two before then.

First up are The Fallen. Let the speculation run wild.

Will Cypher get his groove back? How many wounds are too many for the Warp? Will the jokes about Dark Angels finally end? All this and more on the next edition of...The Indexes.


   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Exactly when does this issue release? Be interesting to see if they actually do something for some Heretic Astartes other than Death Guard.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Exactly when does this issue release?

I would put my money on May 14th as White Dwarf usually drops near the middle of the month.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Fallen rules wise seem to be a very bad version of csm, so I guess an index could help them. An odd choice though, picking them specifically over something like Tau or GSC.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

White Dwarf Indexes have only covered small factions or single chapters or the like. They aren't going to index a whole codex. So Fallen makes sense as an Index since they don't actually have to cover very much in the index itself. Beyond Cypher and maybe a new Fallen datasheet, everything will refer you to an existing codex for rules to use in conjunction with some sort of Fallen Legion or Chapter tactic. Detachment construction rules, use with other army rule, a few stratagems, a warlord trait or two, and some relics and you are good to go.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Subscriptions arrived 2nd Friday of every month. Mag in GW stores 3rd Friday every month.
   
Made in de
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin




I think this could mean that Fallen aren't in the CSM Codex anymore where they were a strange outlier anyway and had basically no support at all. They didn't fit in there and it probably would have been more useful to include them in the Dark Angels supplement right away.
But I'm not saying it's bad to see them here, on the contrary, it's good to see a faction that actually needs some help and not Space Marine Chapter 589 that someone in the team made up under the shower 5 minutes before writing the article.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Can't wait. I've always wanted to do a fallen force. It would be preeeeety sweet if we could include some of those awesome new 30k models

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/25 21:24:04


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Fingers crossed the isn’t a massive let down.

Wonder if it will allow the use of 30k DA models from FW.

Otherwise it makes more sense to run a index using firstborn.

CSM don’t work. Fallen wouldn’t have many of the CSM units.

This maybe the template for running any renegade SM chapter
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The Fallen are in such a weird spot. They're Chaos marines but... aren't? They aren't going to get the Primaris marines, but they also don't get a lot of the fun stuff that Chaos Marines get...

So... I dunno, not expecting much.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Fallen vs DA is one of the saddest, stupidest jokes you can play out given their lore rivalry so any improvement is welcome.

Its just so hilariously pathetic, you need to be playing like 1k vs 2k for the fallen to stand the slightest chance.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





Probably going to be Cypher, sorcerer, chosen elite, special vanguard rule to reimburse points, strats, etc. Really hope they do more, but expectation levels super low.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





drbored wrote:
The Fallen are in such a weird spot. They're Chaos marines but... aren't? They aren't going to get the Primaris marines, but they also don't get a lot of the fun stuff that Chaos Marines get...

So... I dunno, not expecting much.


Well the shouldn’t really be thought of as chaos marines but I suppose GW have never told us what they look like in the current timeline. Or please direct me to a book or something that does.

The original idea was that all of the fallen were scattered throughout space and time so the idea that they are all in the same place to make up a traitor legion type organisation to me is a bit of a retcon. So o think the idea previously was that you could take a fallen squad but not really a whole army.

I also feel they have been left a bit like alpha legion in that some of the fallen followed Luther into chaos and some of them were just following orders and some of them like cypher are possibly fighting their own war in favour of the imperium. So some could be mutants like CSM and some might just be first born.

But like CSM it’s strange that they don’t have units made from 30k technology and units

In theory the fallen should have loads of great technology considering what the DA have tucked away in the rock. Hover bikes, various terminator armour, and they should have Dreadwing units.

But they won’t.

The other thing I am curious about is the fact that Luther has escaped the rock. Will GW even acknowledge this? We got a new cypher model not long ago so expect he will be the warlord. But as this says index heretics on the front of the magazine I’m wondering if fallen will have the keyword CHAOS this time.
   
Made in gb
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation




I wouldn't get too excited about them becoming a "real" faction, it's cool they are updating them though for those narrative games.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





I started a DA army a couple of years ago when I got back into 40K but got a bit bored with and have toyed with idea repurposing them as a fallen. I’m hoping this index provides the enough of a picture to do so.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






mrFickle wrote:
drbored wrote:
The Fallen are in such a weird spot. They're Chaos marines but... aren't? They aren't going to get the Primaris marines, but they also don't get a lot of the fun stuff that Chaos Marines get...

So... I dunno, not expecting much.


Well the shouldn’t really be thought of as chaos marines but I suppose GW have never told us what they look like in the current timeline. Or please direct me to a book or something that does.

The original idea was that all of the fallen were scattered throughout space and time so the idea that they are all in the same place to make up a traitor legion type organisation to me is a bit of a retcon. So o think the idea previously was that you could take a fallen squad but not really a whole army.

I also feel they have been left a bit like alpha legion in that some of the fallen followed Luther into chaos and some of them were just following orders and some of them like cypher are possibly fighting their own war in favour of the imperium. So some could be mutants like CSM and some might just be first born.

But like CSM it’s strange that they don’t have units made from 30k technology and units

In theory the fallen should have loads of great technology considering what the DA have tucked away in the rock. Hover bikes, various terminator armour, and they should have Dreadwing units.

But they won’t.

The other thing I am curious about is the fact that Luther has escaped the rock. Will GW even acknowledge this? We got a new cypher model not long ago so expect he will be the warlord. But as this says index heretics on the front of the magazine I’m wondering if fallen will have the keyword CHAOS this time.


There's plenty of ways to make Fallen actually work - as a CSM subfaction, as a chaos-aligned DA subfaction, as a mix of the two, or as a small faction that can be allied in inquisition-style without removing special snowflake rules from their host faction. GW just needs to pick one and fething go with it.

Having them work similar to inquisition seems like a solid bet - say, they only have Sorcerors/Cypher/Fallen/Rhinos/maybe the other generic CSM stuff like terminators bikers predators LR's etcetc, and give them the ability to add a Patrol detachment (with Fallen as Troops) to any Chaos or Imperium army without costing the purity bonus rules.

This is how I think GW shoul really structure the 'minor factions intended to be allies' going forward. The Assassins, the Rogue Traders, the Ecclesiarchy-but-not-sisters units, the Inquisition, the Ynnari - give them a new categorization as Supplemental Factions and allow you to take a single particular type of detachment varying by which faction we're talking about that does not cost you your special snowflake purity rules.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





Before people get too carried away, there have been WD indexes that were just some lore, painting tips, and maybe a special mission and that was it.

In fact, I remember one just like that called a Dark Angels Index.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah wouldn’t surprise me, we have had a bunch of good indexes for yet more space marine chapters and when GW finally look at something different and really interesting it’s will be light touch and disappointing
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







GW still finds a way to address Space Marines with the Imperium keyword, even when it's a Chaos update.

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





What would it take to make Cypher any good in 9th? I would suggest making him a Character Assassin.

#1 - Can be taken in any detachment in any Chaos or Imperium army, unless those armies also contain at least one DARK ANGEL model. He does not use a Force Organization slot when taken in such detachments, and does not count when checking such an army's or detachment's keywords, but also can not benefit from army or detachment special rules. (ie. he will not benefit from nor prevent such abilities as those gained from abilities like Legion Traits, Angels or Death, or Doctrines.)

#2 - Can Deep Strike. He needs to get where he needs to get, so can deep strike.

#3 - Can ignore "Look Out Sir!" so he can snipe Characters, but he also only benefits from "Look Out Sir!" if he is within 3" of another friendly unit of FALLEN.

#4 - His Pistols have +6" range, making it harder to zone him out to prevent him from going to town.

#5 - He can overwatch, and uses his regular Ballistic Skills when he does so. He also overwatches on shooting, so gets to shoot prior to any unit attempting to shoot him, and resolves this before they get to shoot him.

#6 - Can Re-Strike. Give him the ability to leave the battlefield and set back up again the following turn.

#7 - When he is destroyed, roll a dice. On a 2+, he is removed from play but does not count as destroyed for any victory points.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 the_scotsman wrote:



This is how I think GW should really structure the 'minor factions intended to be allies' going forward. The Assassins, the Rogue Traders, the Ecclesiarchy-but-not-sisters units, the Inquisition, the Ynnari - give them a new categorization as Supplemental Factions and allow you to take a single particular type of detachment varying by which faction we're talking about that does not cost you your special snowflake purity rules.


Mostly agree, but the other thing they need to do is refund CP for detachments from factions that have no troops.

Inquisition detachments, even if the Inquisitor is your Warlord cost CP because it's not possible to make a patrol, battalion or brigade. Same with SoS. Rogue Traders are in a weirder place because they are usually just characters.... But not always. Elucia Vhane has the Starstriders. I'd love it if Janus and Murad had retinues as well... But then they'd be in the position of costing CP for their detachment even if you made one of them a warlord.

The Imperial Agent rule DOES work for solos. But once detachments come into the equation, things get problematic.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






PenitentJake wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:



This is how I think GW should really structure the 'minor factions intended to be allies' going forward. The Assassins, the Rogue Traders, the Ecclesiarchy-but-not-sisters units, the Inquisition, the Ynnari - give them a new categorization as Supplemental Factions and allow you to take a single particular type of detachment varying by which faction we're talking about that does not cost you your special snowflake purity rules.


Mostly agree, but the other thing they need to do is refund CP for detachments from factions that have no troops.

Inquisition detachments, even if the Inquisitor is your Warlord cost CP because it's not possible to make a patrol, battalion or brigade. Same with SoS. Rogue Traders are in a weirder place because they are usually just characters.... But not always. Elucia Vhane has the Starstriders. I'd love it if Janus and Murad had retinues as well... But then they'd be in the position of costing CP for their detachment even if you made one of them a warlord.

The Imperial Agent rule DOES work for solos. But once detachments come into the equation, things get problematic.


I dunno, if I was going to be bringing the starstriders or the gellerpox units or unaligned units or something to a game it'd probably not be for any competitive reason, we probably would not be going super-stickler with matched play rules for it, itd be some weird narrative play thing.

I often just use them as a counts-as if i'm playing a matched play game and I want to use the models.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






If you're expecting anything more than a Copy-Paste from Vigilus 2: Cadia-a-like Boogaloo, then you're setting yourself up for disappointment and have failed at pattern recognition.



EDIT: I like how the cover art of Cypher is so significantly different to his super edgy model.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/26 16:40:14


 
   
Made in ca
Excited Doom Diver






Doesn't mean there will be rules does it? There have been indexs before without rules assossicated.

Space Wolves 4k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





jaredb wrote:
Doesn't mean there will be rules does it? There have been indexs before without rules assossicated.


Have there been any in the past year that have not had rules?

   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





Hoping for Harlequin level WD treatment, expecting far, far less.
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





I wonder if Fallen units will be able to take Chaos marks.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






mrFickle wrote:
drbored wrote:
The Fallen are in such a weird spot. They're Chaos marines but... aren't? They aren't going to get the Primaris marines, but they also don't get a lot of the fun stuff that Chaos Marines get...

So... I dunno, not expecting much.


Well the shouldn’t really be thought of as chaos marines but I suppose GW have never told us what they look like in the current timeline. Or please direct me to a book or something that does.


The back pages of WD 463, for one.
   
Made in ca
Excited Doom Diver






 Daedalus81 wrote:
jaredb wrote:
Doesn't mean there will be rules does it? There have been indexs before without rules assossicated.


Have there been any in the past year that have not had rules?


Space wolves and dark angels both had ones without rules, I think there has been others.

Space Wolves 4k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k 
   
Made in dk
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe






Just gonna be some garbage fallen units, painting tips and some hype propaganda for when CSM arrives in late December 2021 with our 2 wounds at at last, also with the usual overcosted units, and ofc World Eaters with new garbage + attack stratagems and buttom tier relics that still wont keep us alive to get to the enemy. This is GW now ever since that garbage shoot to win 8th edition arrived. Sure things go faster now in terms of release, but i havent bought a 40k book since 2016. I preferr the free pdfs since they arent worth the paper they are printed on

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/26 19:26:25


6000 World Eaters/Khorne  
   
 
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