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Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Working similar to GSC Brood Brothers, you would add each of these options into their parent codex.

I simplified everything and put it in this Google doc.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u9yX8o-Lfv_msv3cLDeQ1lC3rtgC7IHjVeOS1zRub8E/edit

This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2021/05/03 11:28:31


 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





<parent codex>..

I mean, that kinda makes sense for GSC and Tau i guess, but still, Lost and the damned / R&H were until recently a standalone thing with quite some weight behind.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Not Online!!! wrote:
<parent codex>..

I mean, that kinda makes sense for GSC and Tau i guess, but still, Lost and the damned / R&H were until recently a standalone thing with quite some weight behind.


R&H was gutted and removed from the game entirely. No longer with any model or rule support, what I'm proposing is an incredibly simple method of allowing players to use more human traitors with their Chaos Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Option 4 (Bonus):
After extensively looking through codex Chaos Space Marines it dawned on me, Chaos Cultist could oddly make great Frateris Militia.

Adepta Sororitas Detachments:
- Frateris Militia: Chaos Cultists replace the Chaos keyword with Imperium. Replace the <Mark Of Chaos>, <Legion>, and Heretic Astartes keywords with Adeptus Ministorum. Lastly replace the Chaos Cultists keyword with Frateris Militia.

Any instances of Chaos Cultist and Cultist Champion referred to in this datasheet is to be replaced with Frateris Militiamen and Militia Leader.

What this unlocks:
- Frateris Militia units would benefit from Celestine's Saintly Blessings ability.
- Frateris Militia units would benefit from the Missionaries War Hymns and Word of the Emperor abilities.
- Frateris Militia units would benefit from the Preachers War Hymns ability.
- Frateris Militia units would benefit from the Hospitallers Medicus Ministorum ability.
- It allows Adepta Sororitas detachments to have a second Troop choice, as well as a cheap objective holder.

What this restricts:
- A loss of synergy with codex Chaos Space Marines, as well as their associated character buffs, stratagems, and buffing psychic powers.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/29 06:57:54


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




I simplified the initial post and put everything into a combined Google doc.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

No thank you. Guard are already messed up enough as is, anything just allowing them to be "plug and play" with more factions is going to do nothing but water the faction down further.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
No thank you. Guard are already messed up enough as is, anything just allowing them to be "plug and play" with more factions is going to do nothing but water the faction down further.


When it comes to taking them with Tau or Chaos they're restricted to purely Regiment units. So no Tech-Priests, Servitors, Ministorum Priests, Crusaders, Aeronautica, Auxilla, Commissars, AM Psyker units. They also lose access to all AM regiment traits, warlord traits, relics, stratagems, and unique characters. Also no access to Agents of the Imperium, so no Inquisitors or Assassins. Lastly they lose the ability to ally with other Imperium factions.

That seems like a pretty fair trade for an Etheral (already a sub-par unit) to give a Regiment unit Failure Is Not An Option and Invocation of the Elements abilities. The latter requires the receiving unit to remain stationary for the rerolls of 1. The most useful part of Invocation would be the 6+++ making Guardsmen a bit more durable, or stacking the Advance rerolls with Move, Move, Move.

Markerlights sound amazing to stack with on Regiment units, but you have to remember that they're currently not meta. Cost points to take and aren't reliable. While something like a Manticore or Tank Commander getting +1 to hit sounds amazing and scary, it requires 5 markerlight hits to trigger. Those tanks also lose out on things like Full Payload and Gunnery Experts.

For Chaos, it seems like a lot, but similar to the Tau rules. The Regiment units lose out on most of their options. Unlike an Etheral they would get a guaranteed reroll of 1 from Lord of Chaos (and equivalents) but don't get access to the other Etheral buffs. While the other potential Chaos buffs sound like a lot, they are limited in several ways. They are warlord traits or relics, which have auras and potential CP costs for additional. The others are stratagems, which again can become quickly CP intensive, limited to once per turn, and probably have better options to give them too than Guardsmen. All of these are also very Legion dependent. I imagine the most power Legion for Traitor Guard would probably be Iron Warriors. Though I still do think the sacrifices the Regiment units make to be able to simply be taken in a Chaos Space Marine detachment is enough to balance it out.

Both of these are lore friendly choices and I don't believe they ruin game balance at all.

The Inquisitorial Storm Troopers is also very limited. It allows an Inquisition detachment to take access to 4 datasheets, those are:
- Tempestor Prime
- Militarum Tempestus Scions
- Militarum Tempestus Command Squad
- Taurox Prime

Those Tempestus units lose out on their unique regimental traits (no Lions), warlord traits (no Keys to the Armoury), stratagems, or relics (no refractor field generator), they also lose out on Advisors and Auxilla. Just to gain the Ordo keyword, which admittedly might make them a hard counter to their chosen quarry (though they'd still be glass cannons) but against anything else would be fairly balanced.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




I've now made one for Imperial Knights. It has been added to the Google Doc.

Knightly Orders:
Questor Imperialis units instead of being taken in the usual Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments or Super-heavy Detachments can instead be taken as a Knightly Order. When taken in this manner you may swap out any HQ slots in a Patrol, Battalion, or Brigade detachment for a Lord of War slot. Any force organisation slots not swapped in this way may then be filled with Men-at-Arms.

- Men-at-Arms: Replace the Astra Militarum and/or Militarum Tempestus keyword(s) with Imperial Knights, Questor Imperialis, and Men-at-Arms. Replace the <Regiment> or <Tempestus Regiment> keyword with <Household>. Men-at-Arms characters may not be given any Heirlooms of the Noble Houses and cannot be chosen as your Warlord. Men-at-Arms units do not gain a <Household> trait.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/13 07:02:50


 
   
Made in gb
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander






London

Surely it'd make more sense for Skitarii to be the Knights' foot soldiers?

   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Surely it'd make more sense for Skitarii to be the Knights' foot soldiers?

No. Knights can sometimes be seconded to the Skitarii Legions but not really the other way around.

The Knights have their own units called Footmen for both Imperial and Mechanicus aligned Houses in either regards. Carapace armored, tended to have antipersonnel weaponry rather than antivehicle/monster.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
Surely it'd make more sense for Skitarii to be the Knights' foot soldiers?

No. Knights can sometimes be seconded to the Skitarii Legions but not really the other way around.

The Knights have their own units called Footmen for both Imperial and Mechanicus aligned Houses in either regards. Carapace armored, tended to have antipersonnel weaponry rather than antivehicle/monster.
Given the amount of effort the Mechanicus puts in to influencing or outright suborning Knight Houses, I'd assume that Questor Mechanicus footmen, at least, would effectively be Skitarii in every practical sense. Perhaps even Secutarii; they have the technology, after all, and the role is similar enough.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 Valkyrie wrote:
Surely it'd make more sense for Skitarii to be the Knights' foot soldiers?


Questor Mechanicus makes sense with Skitarii and is already possible with Knight of the Cog.

Questor Imperialis would have their own serfs, men-at-arms is their lore friendly ground troops.

Which is why I specifically limited it to Questor Imperialis.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/14 02:24:34


 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Men-At-Arms are also Questor Mechanicus though.

It's a Knightly House thing, not an Imperial or AdMech thing. Knight of the Cog is meant to be a Mechanicus equivalent to Oathsworn for what it's worth.

AdMech shouldn't have had Knights in their codex, or if they did then the other major Imperial books should have had them with Oathsworn as a stratagem.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/14 03:20:12


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
Men-At-Arms are also Questor Mechanicus though.
Sure, but my point is that if you're a Questor Mechanicus Knightly House, you are a devotee of the Omnissiah whose household is armed, supplied, populated, reinforced, and in some cases all but directly controlled by the Adeptus Mechanicus. If you maintain military forces of your own, they're going to sport extensive cybernetics, follow Adeptus Mechanicus military doctrine, and have access to the armouries of the Tech Priests... so they're going to resemble Tech-Guard or Titan Guard a lot more than, well, Guard.

That's related to the reason Knights showed up in the AdMech codex; Questor Mechanicus are typically much more tightly tied to (and directly subordinate to) the AdMech's wishes and military forces than the Questor Imperialis are to the rest of the Imperium's command structure. The other reason, of course, being that there was room to lump the QM Knights into that single codex, even though (much like Daemons in the CSM codex) you definitely want their own codex to use them in full.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/14 08:47:24


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




RevlidRas wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Men-At-Arms are also Questor Mechanicus though.
Sure, but my point is that if you're a Questor Mechanicus Knightly House, you are a devotee of the Omnissiah whose household is armed, supplied, populated, reinforced, and in some cases all but directly controlled by the Adeptus Mechanicus. If you maintain military forces of your own, they're going to sport extensive cybernetics, follow Adeptus Mechanicus military doctrine, and have access to the armouries of the Tech Priests... so they're going to resemble Tech-Guard or Titan Guard a lot more than, well, Guard.

That's related to the reason Knights showed up in the AdMech codex; Questor Mechanicus are typically much more tightly tied to (and directly subordinate to) the AdMech's wishes and military forces than the Questor Imperialis are to the rest of the Imperium's command structure. The other reason, of course, being that there was room to lump the QM Knights into that single codex, even though (much like Daemons in the CSM codex) you definitely want their own codex to use them in full.


This, you could use the rules I drew up and just swap it for Ad-Mech keywords for a Questor Mechanicus house.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

RevlidRas wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Men-At-Arms are also Questor Mechanicus though.
Sure, but my point is that if you're a Questor Mechanicus Knightly House, you are a devotee of the Omnissiah whose household is armed, supplied, populated, reinforced, and in some cases all but directly controlled by the Adeptus Mechanicus. If you maintain military forces of your own, they're going to sport extensive cybernetics, follow Adeptus Mechanicus military doctrine, and have access to the armouries of the Tech Priests... so they're going to resemble Tech-Guard or Titan Guard a lot more than, well, Guard.

Tech-Guard are Guard. It's an outdated concept at this point and a distinction that is not really worth mentioning. It's a holdout from the Doctrines days when it was Carapace, Sharpshooters, Techpriest Enginseers, Heavy Weapons Platoons, and Grenadiers to give you the ability to make "Skitarii". There was a Black Gobbo article on it.


That's related to the reason Knights showed up in the AdMech codex; Questor Mechanicus are typically much more tightly tied to (and directly subordinate to) the AdMech's wishes and military forces than the Questor Imperialis are to the rest of the Imperium's command structure. The other reason, of course, being that there was room to lump the QM Knights into that single codex, even though (much like Daemons in the CSM codex) you definitely want their own codex to use them in full.

That's not actually true but okay cool.

It was literally because of the playtesters insisting that the Convocation(which many of them whined about while still playing) be representable somehow.

Worth mentioning that even lorewise? Questor Mechanicus aren't that heavily integrated. They're requested, and the threat of withholding Sacristans has to be made to get them to cooperate.

Anyways, page 99 of the core rulebook shows what a Knightly house has for retainers.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







I find it amusing that after years and years of people grumbling about soup and demanding mono-faction bonuses we now have a Proposed Rules thread about bringing the Loyal 32 back.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
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Right behind you.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I find it amusing that after years and years of people grumbling about soup and demanding mono-faction bonuses we now have a Proposed Rules thread about bringing the Loyal 32 back.

Right?!
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 AnomanderRake wrote:
I find it amusing that after years and years of people grumbling about soup and demanding mono-faction bonuses we now have a Proposed Rules thread about bringing the Loyal 32 back.


It's not bringing Loyal 32 back, because there's no CP benefit and these units directly compete with the force organisation slots of the parent detachment. All the Regiment units also lose all their Astra Militarum detachment options. No stratagems, no relics, no regiment traits, no allies or auxiliary's. So there's a ton of sacrifices they have to make just to be included.

This aims to be a purely lore representation of the countless human forces serving in these organisations:
- The Tau make use of Gue'vesa troops as auxiliaries. Which could be humans born in their Septs or from worlds recently joining their empire through force or diplomacy.
.- The forces of Chaos have billions of unnamed human soldiers. Either actual traitor Guardsmen or more disciplined human troops than simply cultists.
- Imperial Knights are mentioned to have serfs referred to as Men-At-Arms which travel and fight with them. Who range from being similar to a PDF trooper to Tech-Guard.

I guess if anyone really isn't into it you could simply use it in narrative play.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 04:26:02


 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Also, people aren’t a monolith. There can be those who oppose soup and those who like it.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Page 99 of the core rulebook solidifies what a "Man at Arms" at least looks like for Knights. It is neither of those things.

The Gue'vesa are a wildly differing concept as well. Those who've been born and raised in Sept space? They're far more trusted and given weapons and armour that are closer to Tau in origin than anything else.
Those who've turned traitor to the Imperium? They got PDF gear or Tau manufactured variants of Imperial gear.

Chaos stuff is all over the place, but the basic gist is that they're lunatic Guardsmen if they're showing up en masse.

Also, NO MORE THINGS NEED TO JUST BE COPY/PASTE GUARD INFANTRY SQUADS.
I cannot stress or repeat this enough. Please, for the love of all that's holy just get stop asking for it. Brood Brothers was enough of an insult when coupled with the Guardsman +1 of the Neophytes to begin with.

You want to come up with Gue'vesa or Traitor Guardsmen or Men-At-Arms as unique units? Let's do it! I'll frigging help you!

But just let the Infantry Squad be unique for once.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 00:12:30


 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, people aren’t a monolith. There can be those who oppose soup and those who like it.


40k is a community of loud, angry absolutists who insist that only one very specific combination of mechanics could possibly represent the lore/function as a game on the tabletop. I find the fact that people keep proving themselves not a monolith amusing and ironic in light of how the discussions usually go.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
Page 99 of the core rulebook solidifies what a "Man at Arms" at least looks like for Knights. It is neither of those things.

The Gue'vesa are a wildly differing concept as well. Those who've been born and raised in Sept space? They're far more trusted and given weapons and armour that are closer to Tau in origin than anything else.
Those who've turned traitor to the Imperium? They got PDF gear or Tau manufactured variants of Imperial gear.

Chaos stuff is all over the place, but the basic gist is that they're lunatic Guardsmen if they're showing up en masse.

Also, NO MORE THINGS NEED TO JUST BE COPY/PASTE GUARD INFANTRY SQUADS.
I cannot stress or repeat this enough. Please, for the love of all that's holy just get stop asking for it. Brood Brothers was enough of an insult when coupled with the Guardsman +1 of the Neophytes to begin with.

You want to come up with Gue'vesa or Traitor Guardsmen or Men-At-Arms as unique units? Let's do it! I'll frigging help you!

But just let the Infantry Squad be unique for once.


I think you're taking this far too personally for something that's literally just a few changes to keywords that lets you easily represent differing human forces found across the galaxy.

You could reserve these rules for narrative games. You don't have to use them yourself either. I've also kept mono-AM armies unique, as by taking any Regiment units in these other factions they lose everything that makes them Guard. The sole exception being anything on their data sheets.

The 40k universe is also incredibly vast. That one image of men-at-arms in the rulebook only represents those found on that world, not the faction as a whole. Tau also build and import lasweapons, flak armour, etc to outfit their human troops.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
I find it amusing that after years and years of people grumbling about soup and demanding mono-faction bonuses we now have a Proposed Rules thread about bringing the Loyal 32 back.

Right?!


To me, the distinction here is that the loyal 32 felt like a semi-mandatory thing that you were punished for not including in every imperial army whether it matched your fluff or not. I was annoyed by the loyal 32 but glad to have the option to ally in guard as "pdf" helping my sisters, chapter serfs with my marines, etc.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Wyldhunt wrote:

To me, the distinction here is that the loyal 32 felt like a semi-mandatory thing that you were punished for not including in every imperial army whether it matched your fluff or not. I was annoyed by the loyal 32 but glad to have the option to ally in guard as "pdf" helping my sisters, chapter serfs with my marines, etc.


Exactly this, though I haven't made rules for other Imperium organisations yet. Though I guess you could add more simplistic rules to have allied Guard without breaking super-doctrines, with the Guard not getting their own army abilities, except what's on their data sheets of course.

It could be as simple as PDF: Any Imperium army may take a separate detachment of Astra Militarum. This Astra Militarum detachment may only take <Regiment> units and do not benefit from any kind of Regiment doctrines, Unique Characters, Relics or Warlord Traits. That prevents Marines from just taking cheap detachment filler to spend more points on Elites.
   
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

And that's a whole other issue in that everyone seems to, again, conflate PDF with Guard.

They aren't the same thing. It's like saying you can swap in Grey Knights for Intercessors.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
And that's a whole other issue in that everyone seems to, again, conflate PDF with Guard.

They aren't the same thing. It's like saying you can swap in Grey Knights for Intercessors.

They aren't the same, but T3 bodies with moderate-to-bad BS (Conscripts), strength 3 guns, and thin armor are a reasonable way of representing PDF in fluffy, casual lists. Shift the ratio away from conscripts and towards actual guardsmen, special weapon teams, and scions to represent the private armies of nobles, astropath houses, chapter serfs, etc.

Similarly, GSC aren't the same thing as chaos cults, but their rules can represent a sneaky bunch of corrupted civillians fighting with power tools alongside "daemons" (genestealer/aberrant/broodlord stats) pretty well.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Those are two very different concepts.

One is trying to justify claiming that something is a great stand-in for something it shouldn't be used for(and as a record? Chapter Serfs should 100% be a thing) while the other is just talking about generic "counts as" armies.

My point still stands. Pretending that PDF is interchangeable with Guard and giving Conscripts any kind of actual unit listing that had zero real difference in equipment to a Guardsman is how we're in this crummy situation, thanks to Cruddace.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/19 16:05:55


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Out of curiosity, what are the key differences between PDF and guard that you feel sprinkling guard into your army fail to capture?

When I think PDF, I imagine las and stub weapons (comparable to the autoweapons of CSM cultists) , flakk armor, and relatively unimpressive fighting skills (compared to the scarier things in the galaxy). A conscript or infantry squad statline seems like a pretty good fit for that. I'd be inclined to hold off on fielding a ton of tanks/artillery, but honestly you could probably make an argument for those units being easier to supply on some imperial worlds than on remote, contested planets.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Out of curiosity, what are the key differences between PDF and guard that you feel sprinkling guard into your army fail to capture?

Well for one thing, PDF ain't rocking lasguns unless it's an important world or regiment. That's how it's supposed to work.


When I think PDF, I imagine las and stub weapons (comparable to the autoweapons of CSM cultists)

Being amongst the easiest firearms to manufacture, they are common on Imperial worlds, where they are often called by local names, such as 'sluggers' 'smokers' or 'shooters'. These weapons are generally locally manufactured or jury-rigged from the parts of other weapons. Stub guns are commonly used by hive gangers, criminals or other citizens, feeling the need to defend themselves. Because of their availability they are often used by chaos cults. Infamous for their poor accuracy and unreliability, stub guns are not usually considered a military weapon, but, as well as Autopistols, they are sometimes used by Guardsmen as a backup weapon, especially by the ones using unreliable melta- or plasma-weaponry.

The simple technology needed to manufacture autoguns makes them common on frontier worlds and also with gang members on Hive Worlds. Autoguns are not as common as the lasgun amongst Imperial Guard regiments, but they are still issued in substantial numbers, especially by second or third line planetary defence forces or militias.


Literally the first thing you should be thinking is "autoguns". Because time and time again, GW has made it clear that from the PDF armories are where the GSC and CSM Cultists arm themselves.


flakk armor,

Which kind, the vest or the actual armor? Because this is one of those "varies by planet" things.
and relatively unimpressive fighting skills (compared to the scarier things in the galaxy). A conscript or infantry squad statline seems like a pretty good fit for that. I'd be inclined to hold off on fielding a ton of tanks/artillery, but honestly you could probably make an argument for those units being easier to supply on some imperial worlds than on remote, contested planets.

The infantry squad statline is not an appropriate fit, as any governor holding back troops of that quality to the point where that is the "standard" can and will be executed if it's found out.

Conscripts are the "better" fit, but if you're so damn desperate for a PDF equivalent for whatever army you have? Just go build your own CEQ and keep your mitts out of the Guard book. You lot are why we can't have nice things.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
Out of curiosity, what are the key differences between PDF and guard that you feel sprinkling guard into your army fail to capture?

Well for one thing, PDF ain't rocking lasguns unless it's an important world or regiment. That's how it's supposed to work.


When I think PDF, I imagine las and stub weapons (comparable to the autoweapons of CSM cultists)

Being amongst the easiest firearms to manufacture, they are common on Imperial worlds, where they are often called by local names, such as 'sluggers' 'smokers' or 'shooters'. These weapons are generally locally manufactured or jury-rigged from the parts of other weapons. Stub guns are commonly used by hive gangers, criminals or other citizens, feeling the need to defend themselves. Because of their availability they are often used by chaos cults. Infamous for their poor accuracy and unreliability, stub guns are not usually considered a military weapon, but, as well as Autopistols, they are sometimes used by Guardsmen as a backup weapon, especially by the ones using unreliable melta- or plasma-weaponry.

The simple technology needed to manufacture autoguns makes them common on frontier worlds and also with gang members on Hive Worlds. Autoguns are not as common as the lasgun amongst Imperial Guard regiments, but they are still issued in substantial numbers, especially by second or third line planetary defence forces or militias.


Literally the first thing you should be thinking is "autoguns". Because time and time again, GW has made it clear that from the PDF armories are where the GSC and CSM Cultists arm themselves.

Fair enough. Autoguns are more likely weapons for PDF than lasguns. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the stats on lasguns and laspistols identical to those of autoguns and autopistols?


flakk armor,

Which kind, the vest or the actual armor? Because this is one of those "varies by planet" things.

I guess I was picturing a wide assortment of specific outfits varying by planet (as you say) but with the general theme being that they're wearing something slightly better than the cobbled together 6+ armor of the masses but not as good as proper carapace armor. On a world where cultists are taping together scrap metal, I picture the PDF having something more like kevlar and hard plastic/ceramic plates; albeit maybe only enough to cover their torsos.
But regardless of specifics, a 5+ save compared to a 6+ seems reasonable.


and relatively unimpressive fighting skills (compared to the scarier things in the galaxy). A conscript or infantry squad statline seems like a pretty good fit for that. I'd be inclined to hold off on fielding a ton of tanks/artillery, but honestly you could probably make an argument for those units being easier to supply on some imperial worlds than on remote, contested planets.

The infantry squad statline is not an appropriate fit, as any governor holding back troops of that quality to the point where that is the "standard" can and will be executed if it's found out.

Is that how it works? I know that a planet's tithe to the guard is supposed to be up to a certain standard (you can't just ship out all your old folks and C-listers), but I also thought that your tithe was based on population. So if your planet has 150,000 badasses, and the guard is expecting you to tithe 100,000 badasses, the planet is still left with 50,000 badasses.

Plus, I'm pretty sure you could get away with holding onto a smallish number of your relatively competent troops after the tithe. With some appropriately cartoony exceptions, I don't see beauracrats emailing each other the firing range data from the PDF and the guard tithe from the same world to see if some of the remaining PDF were BS 4+ instead of BS5+.

And then you have all those private armies that aren't necessarily "PDF" per se, but would still end up fighting alongside the PDF during a planetary invasion. Noble houses and navigator houses can afford to keep their own armies of relatively competent soldiers who would presumably be shooting aliens if orkz made planetfall.

Basically, being skilled enough to be BS4+ doesn't seem like it should instantly get you teleported into a guard regiment's camp. (Even acknowledging that the IG are supposed to be made up of special forces-level soldiers.)


Conscripts are the "better" fit, but if you're so damn desperate for a PDF equivalent for whatever army you have? Just go build your own CEQ and keep your mitts out of the Guard book. You lot are why we can't have nice things.

Sounds like we agree that conscripts are a pretty good way to represent the PDF and similar entities. Their existence in the guard codex means that I can use the guard 'dex rules to represent PDF fighting alongside my marines or sisters or what have you. That seems like a good thing to me.
   
 
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