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Counter-Offensive + Paroxysm + Mass Hypnosis and Charging vs Cult of Strife + Emperor's Children  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in dk
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker






Can I use Counter-Offensive on a unit affected by Counter-Offensive or Paroxysm? What abilities, Stratagems and relics prevent me from using Counter-Offensive on a unit?

Counter-Offensive
Use this Stratagem after an enemy unit has fought in this turn. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.

Paroxysm
Until your next Psychic phase, that unit cannot fight in the Fight phase until all other units that are able to have done so. If the target unit has an ability that allows it to fight first in the Fight phase, it instead fights as if it didn’t have this ability. If both players have units that cannot fight until all other units have done so, then alternate choosing which of those units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.

Mass Hypnosis
Until the start of your next Psychic phase, the target cannot fire Overwatch, fights last in the Fight phase even if it charged. If the target has a rule that allows it to fight first in the Fight phase even if it did not charge, then instead of fighting last in the Fight phase, it fights as if it did not have that ability and did not charge.


If I charge two units A and B into two Cult of Strife units C and D or two Emperor's Children units E and F who gets to fight when?

Charging Units Fight First
Units that made a charge move this turn fight first in the Fight phase. This means that units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move have fought.

Cult of Strife
At the start of the Fight phase, if a unit with this Obsession is within Engagement Range of any enemy units, it can fight first that phase.

Emperor's Children
Units with this trait always fight first in the Fight phase even if they didn’t charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 08:11:22


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

Counter-Offensive 're-sequences' everything by using that next terminology, instead of simply granting Fight First. This allows some interesting flexibility depending on how deeply you want to run with it, so discuss this with your opponent to see if they also agree on how far it an go. From all the pondering I have done this very Rule in the last two days, and to be consistent with the intention of Counter-Offensive to interrupt a Charge, I would allow it to ignore the Fight Last requirement as easily as it is meant to ignore the Fight First requirement. After all - it isn't something you can simply do on a whim, it will cost you some valuable Command Points... so it deserves this 'buff.'

In addition:-
These are two situations where my pondering of 'why not just grant First Strike?' would fall flat of the desired outcome... so back to re-writing that offending Rule, but thanks.

As for the second situation, that is easier to address:
Some rules allow a unit from your army to always fight first in the Fight phase, even if they didn't make a charge move this turn. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have similar rules, then alternate selecting units to fight with from amongst these units, starting with the player whose turn is taking place. - ALWAYS FIGHT FIRST/LAST, page 361 on this P.D.F.


While Cult of Strife seems to lack the usual 'alternative selecting...' clause, this has always been more of a reminder that the Rules require 'alternative selection' by default.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/05/05 09:04:52


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

Counter offensive says you pick one of your own eligible unit and fight with it next. If any rule says one of your units is not eligible, you cant select it for counter offensive. If some other rule says they fight last, but they are eligible to fight (if they meet the requirements for eligibility), they would fight next with the counter offensive stratagem.

An eligible unit is one that is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same turn.
   
Made in dk
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker






"While Cult of Strife seems to lack the usual 'alternative selecting...' clause, this has always been more of a reminder that the Rules require 'alternative selection' by default."

That's what caught me off guard, I thought EC had been changed to allow one unit to fight before chargers as well, don't know where that came from. But I guess one of my charging units will get to go first against them, my Cult of Strife opponent was also insistent that I fight with one of my units first even though I argued that the person whose turn it is not should choose a unit to fight with first, so I guess he had it right and wasn't just a good sportsman.

 p5freak wrote:
Counter offensive says you pick one of your own eligible unit and fight with it next. If any rule says one of your units is not eligible, you cant select it for counter offensive. If some other rule says they fight last, but they are eligible to fight (if they meet the requirements for eligibility), they would fight next with the counter offensive stratagem.

An eligible unit is one that is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same turn.

You said that in another thread, but which rules say that you are not eligible to fight?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/05 11:07:54


 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

If you check the drazhar thread here in YMDC, you will see that the tormentors rule can make a unit ineligible.
   
Made in us
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot





Also, Tempormortis ability from Judiciar and Foul Blightspawn's Putrefying Stink ability.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Rulebook FAQ Page 3 covers this. Counter Offensive is not eligible to allow a “fight last” unit to move up the order.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

JohnnyHell,
Ah that pleases me.
Game Workshop hasn't stopped using Frequently Asked Questions to make things even more confusing, instead of less!

Pray Tell - Why can't the Unit fight?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/05 17:24:01


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in dk
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker






*Pages 361-362 – Rare Rules, Always Fight First/Last
Add the following paragraph to the end of this Rare Rules entry:
‘Note that the Counter-offensive Stratagem requires you to select
a unit that is eligible to fight. This means that if a unit is under
the effects of a rule that says that it is not eligible to fight until
after all other eligible units have done so, you will not be able to
select that unit to use the Counter-offensive Stratagem.’

Until your next Psychic phase, that unit cannot fight in the Fight phase until all other units that are able to have done so. If the target unit has an ability that allows it to fight first in the Fight phase, it instead fights as if it didn’t have this ability. If both players have units that cannot fight until all other units have done so, then alternate choosing which of those units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.

So cannot fight = not eligible? But then it doesn't work to interrupt a charging unit.

... This means that units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move have fought.

The conclusion has to be cannot fight =/= not eligible.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/05 17:38:21


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

All that has done is cement in the concept that 'Eligible' is different then 'cannot be selected.'
Or else Counter-Offensive has been rendered to such a niche it will never be used on the table....


As "Mass Hypnosis" does not mention Eligibility at all, only that the affected Unit must fight last, we are still left with O.P.'s original question - Can Counter-Offensive can be used on such a Unit? I am still very much inclined to give Counter-Offensive the ability to "Select a Unit," as long as said Unit is within Engagement Range and does not have a Rule which uses the specific words 'not-eligible.' As a Stratagem that costs Control Points to evoke, it shouldn't be rendered to some bizarre niche solution to a situation no one will ever encounter.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/05 17:55:49


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 JinxDragon wrote:
All that has done is cement in the concept that 'Eligible' is different then 'cannot be selected.'
Or else Counter-Offensive has been rendered to such a niche it will never be used on the table....


As "Mass Hypnosis" does not mention Eligibility at all, only that the affected Unit must fight last, we are still left with O.P.'s original question - Can Counter-Offensive can be used on such a Unit? I am still very much inclined to give Counter-Offensive the ability to "Select a Unit," as long as said Unit is within Engagement Range and does not have a Rule which uses the specific words 'not-eligible.' As a Stratagem that costs Control Points to evoke, it shouldn't be rendered to some bizarre niche solution to a situation no one will ever encounter.


The unit wouldn't be eligible to select until every unit that does not have "fights last" has gone.
   
Made in us
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Vanished Completely

By that logic, a Unit that can't be selected until other Units have fought isn't Eligible either....

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/05 19:43:00


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 JinxDragon wrote:
By that logic, a Unit that can't be selected until other Units have fought isn't Eligible either....


are you talking until all other units have fought? If so, no, it couldn't be selected. There are restrictions that keep it from being selected.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/05 19:57:54


 
   
Made in us
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot





Eligible is a defined game term which is defined differently from the common English term you're using it as here, doctortom.
   
Made in us
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Vanished Completely

DoctorTom,
I am saying there are certain Rules out there which forbid an otherwise 'Eligible Unit' from being 'Selected to Fight.'
Do we allow these Units to 'Be Selected to Fight' via the evocation of Counter-Offensive, because all it refers to is 'Eligible Units?'

All I have been trying to highlight this whole time is thus:
Both Yes and No will cause wonky results if we use strict Rules as Written....

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/05 20:33:19


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





No, if the unit is under the effect which redacts its eligibility to fight, it cannot not be made eligible to fight by being selected to fight via stratagem.

Only rule that can remove (via SSF FAQ) such redaction of permission is by countering it with 'always fight first' abilities, at which time both abilities cease to function.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/05 20:36:05


 
   
Made in us
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Vanished Completely

Skchsan,
Are you saying a Unit is not 'Eligible to Fight' if there is a Rule saying it can not be 'Selected to Fight?'
I know it sounds like splitting hairs but my question was specifically related to Units that are within Engagement Range... but can't be 'Selected to Fight.'

And yes - That situation is actually extremely common... take a look at the wording found within Charging Units Fight First.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/05/05 20:53:51


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





No, I'm saying this is an "all rectangles are square" fallacy.

[Eligibility to fight] is a prerequisite for being [Selected to fight] with. You need [eligibility to fight] in order to be [selected to fight] with.

Being [selected to fight] with does not give that unit [eligibility to fight]. If the unit didn't have the [eligibility to fight], then it necessarily cannot be [selected to fight] with, which is the whole point of the SSF FAQ. (meaning the stratagem only works if, and only if, the target unit is [eligible to fight] at the time of proccing of the stratagem in the first place (it either charged or is currently within engagement range).)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/05 21:24:17


 
   
Made in us
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Vanished Completely

Some Rules will specifically remove the 'Eligibility to Fight' status while others will only say 'Can Not Be Selected To Fight...' so not all situations are identical here.
If I evoke a Rule that allows me to 'Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next,' what happens when I select an Eligible Unit which also has 'Can Not Be Selected?'

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/05 21:42:52


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 JinxDragon wrote:
Some Rules will specifically remove the 'Eligibility to Fight' status while others will only say 'Can Not Be Selected To Fight...' so not all situations are identical here.
If I evoke a Rule that allows me to 'Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next,' what happens when I select an Eligible Unit which also has 'Can Not Be Selected?'


How do you expect to select a unit that specifically says "Can not be selected"?
   
Made in us
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot





 doctortom wrote:
 JinxDragon wrote:
Some Rules will specifically remove the 'Eligibility to Fight' status while others will only say 'Can Not Be Selected To Fight...' so not all situations are identical here.
If I evoke a Rule that allows me to 'Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next,' what happens when I select an Eligible Unit which also has 'Can Not Be Selected?'


How do you expect to select a unit that specifically says "Can not be selected"?


Then what does the stratagem Counter-Offensive even do, in your reading? Can you give an example of where it would be used?
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

Paraphrasing my response from the other thread:
*Pages 361-362 – Rare Rules, Always Fight First/Last
Add the following paragraph to the end of this Rare Rules entry: ‘Note that the Counter-offensive Stratagem requires you to select a unit that is eligible to fight. This means that if a unit is under the effects of a rule that says that it is not eligible to fight until after all other eligible units have done so, you will not be able to select that unit to use the Counter-offensive Stratagem.’
This tells you that a unit that is not eligible to fight until after all other eligible units have done so is different from a unit that has to Fight Last, a unit that cannot be selected until to fight in the Fight phase until after all other eligible units have done so. It is a slight, but definite difference in the rules. If you cannot be selected, you are still a unit eligible to fight and can be selected by Counter-Offensive. If you are not eligible, you cannot as it requires you to be eligible to fight.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

Doctortom,
This means that units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move have fought. - Charging Units Fight First


Either Counter-Offensive allows us to ignore 'cannot be selected' requirements, by chose any unit in Engagement Range to fight next
OR
Counter-Offensive does not allow us to ignore Charging Units Fight First, costing 2 Command Points for... what?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 04:24:38


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in dk
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker






 JinxDragon wrote:
Doctortom,
This means that units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move have fought. - Charging Units Fight First


Either Counter-Offensive allows us to ignore 'cannot be selected' requirements, by chose any unit in Engagement Range to fight next
OR
Counter-Offensive does not allow us to ignore Charging Units Fight First, costing 2 Command Points for... what?

It's technically possible that GW intends it to work against charging units fight first and units with fight first but not abilities that make a unit fight last. GW have made similar decisions in the past, like when they completely went against an old FAQ with a new Necron FAQ regarding QS in 8th.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

I know it is a brick wall my head is hitting against, the madness and joy of it all, but I still have to ask the question:
Why couldn't Game Workshop simply state that?

It wouldn't have been hard to format it along the lines of:
*Page 255, Counter-Offensive
Add the following sentence to the end of this entry: ‘The Counter-offensive Stratagem can not be used on Units that must Fight Last...'

After all, the Frequently Asked Question was in relation to Counter-Offensive... it makes more sense to modify Counter-Offensive, instead of Always Fight First/Last!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/06 06:13:01


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

I guess they want to give the player who gets charged a chance to interrupt all those charging units fighting first.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

 JinxDragon wrote:
Doctortom,
This means that units that did not make a charge move this turn cannot be selected to fight until after all units that did make a charge move have fought. - Charging Units Fight First


Either Counter-Offensive allows us to ignore 'cannot be selected' requirements, by chose any unit in Engagement Range to fight next
OR
Counter-Offensive does not allow us to ignore Charging Units Fight First, costing 2 Command Points for... what?
Neither. Counter-Offensive allows you to select a unit that is eligible to fight (aka one that charged or is in Engagement Range of an enemy unit and not deemed ineligible to fight be another rule) after your opponent has a unit fight to gain the stratagem bonus. Don't think of it as allowing you to select a unit to fight out of order. Think of it as allowing you to select a unit do to a special 'action'. That action happens to be fight next.
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





Bottom line is,

1. you can be eligible to fight, and be selected to fight with.
2. you can be eligible to fight, but you may not be able to be selected to fight with.
3. you are not eligible to fight, thus you cannot be selected to fight with.

And, it cannot be;
1. if you are selected to fight, then you are eligible to fight. (all rectangles are square fallacy)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 p5freak wrote:
I guess they want to give the player who gets charged a chance to interrupt all those charging units fighting first.
This is true (although it may not have been its primary use/design).

The active player can respond to the defending player's activation of Counter Offensive by activating Counter Offensive themselves. Because these two rules/abilities are resolved at the same time, it goes to sequencing. Then, the active player can determine the order of resolution, allowing the active player to 'interrupt' his opponent's interrupt.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/06 16:26:33


 
   
Made in dk
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker






 skchsan wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
I guess they want to give the player who gets charged a chance to interrupt all those charging units fighting first.
This is true (although it may not have been its primary use/design).

The active player can respond to the defending player's activation of Counter Offensive by activating Counter Offensive themselves. Because these two rules/abilities are resolved at the same time, it goes to sequencing. Then, the active player can determine the order of resolution, allowing the active player to 'interrupt' his opponent's interrupt.

Wrong.

COUNTER-OFFENSIVE
2CP
Core Stratagem
Use this Stratagem after an enemy unit has fought in this turn. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





Touche. I did miss that. You cannot counter counter offensive with a counter offensive of your own.
   
 
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