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Made in us
Powerful Ushbati





United States

So my question to those who are unhappy with the current state of their respective game and the company as a whole is why do you all stay and collectively subject yourself to something a lot of you clearly hate? I see it time and time again in just about every thread, the literal same arguments people were having two years ago about primaris this, stormcast that, my rules suck, that new army get's more support than my 1 character, 2 troop army that hasn't been good since third edition, I don't like the aesthetics, I don't like the rules! Complain, complain, complain. Clearly this hobby makes you unhappy, so why do you subject yourself to it continuously when a lot of you even go so far as to say that it's never going to change? It's like you know it's bad for your health, but you keep coming back and I just don't understand it?

Just to be fair, I did this myself with 40K up until the Pandemic forced me to suspend my gaming. Once I wasn't able to do it, I had all these realizations that I needed to find another game and I moved to AoS instead of 40K. Things got a lot better for me, because it turns out that game is much better suited for me than 40K was. There are a lot of choices out there for wargames and I'm genuinely curious about this.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

What people say and how they actually feel are 2 different things.

You can not like GW and still like other people in the community.

The German word trotz sums up much of what I feel towards GW.

   
Made in us
Powerful Ushbati





United States

 techsoldaten wrote:
What people say and how they actually feel are 2 different things.

You can not like GW and still like other people in the community.

The German word trotz sums up much of what I feel towards GW.


I understand the differences in opinion. And I also get that folks from friendships with others within the community who probably don't feel the same way. I just don't understand the non-stop complaints about things that aren't going to change. To me, it feels like some folks have lost their interest or at least it's dulled quite a good bit and they're hanging around for the sake of needing something to be upset about.

It's been a while since I took any German, what does that word mean?
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






When people like something it doesn't generate as much discussion. One could go down a rabbit hole with details of how and why our psychology does that, but regardless that is what it is. With GW specifically, why people like something tends to boil down to a few major reasons which further limits discussion because people agree; if I agree with someone there isn't a lot I have to say beyond 'I agree'.

Accordingly, people who still like the hobby overall will end up spending a great deal more time discussing what they don't like about it.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Arguing is a hobby of its own. When I had young kids and couldn't play I was stuck on forums. Now I'm probably playing more than ever, because of TTS and the shop is open to gaming this June so things are looking up.

Of course I'm pretty positive focused, but the takeaway is that perhaps some people don't have time to game and the forums becomes their outlet for good or bad.
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

Complaining is free and some people are cheap.
Others are in love/lust with GW & they treat it as such. Either mutual, unrequited, puppy, or masochistic.
Further still, some differentiate between the product and company. Personally I love 40k, currently only mildly dislike GW(better than when they squatted my squats) and despise how some take a fanatical/cultish approach to it. White/Black nighting, vitriol, etc...

It makes zero sense to continue to be ridden roughshod by something that you no longer like.

I can understand hoping that it'll get better, but at some point, to quote a fishing saying "sometimes you just gotta cut n run"
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

I can't speak for everybody, but for me, what kept me coming back long after I had lost interest in actually playing the game, and still keeps me checking in on new releases just to see what's happening, is investment.

I started playing 40K in 1994, and stopped playing about mid-way through 6th edition when the move to hardcover codexes made it impractical to keep up with the rules and I realised that I wasn't enjoying what the game had become anymore anyway. I have a cabinet full of painted miniatures, two shelves full of rulebooks and codexes, and more unpainted stuff sitting downstairs than I'll likely paint in my lifetime, particularly now that I'm not actively playing the game.

All of that adds up to a significant investment in money, time, and mental space, and just letting go of that is not easy. I did, in the end, by deciding to go back and revisit 2nd edition and largely ignore the new stuff... but that took a while.

It's really easy to dismiss it as people 'wanting something to be upset about'... but it's generally a lot deeper than that, from my experience. People want the thing they love to go on being the thing they love, and so they hang on in the hope that, despite all evidence to the contrary, at some point it will go back to being that thing.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




People like to talk about things on the internet. Some people like to talk about things they don't like in a hobby that is important to them. Apparently, other people like to talk about people who talk about things they don't like in the hobby.

Who would have thought?

As someone probably once said of these forums: "I don't come here to not post."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 00:08:23


 
   
Made in gb
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Eastern Fringe

A lot of people like being miserable. They enjoy wallowing in their own misery and because they are fundamentally unhappy they are annoyed by others who are happy or enjoy things. So they complain, they drag things down, they are like the dementors from Harry Potter. Everyone knows who they are... same old nics been moaning on Dakka for 10+ years.

It was also a bit of a hit for the Dakka community when Warseer fell. A lot of the negative dross that used to dwell over there have infected here... like a big negative tumor.

The first rule of unarmed combat is: don’t be unarmed. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

I enjoy 40k. I enjoy other games more, but 40k isn't a "miserable" experience. Just a less enjoyable one than it could be. And that's the rub, isn't it?

Just because I have fun playing 40k doesn't mean it can't be improved in dramatic ways so my enjoyment improves (and that of my opponents).

I don't think it's wrong to enjoy something while also loudly seeking to improve it. Like video games - does the fact that I think X character's moveset could be improved or that Y gun's bullet drop is unrealistic mean that I'm not allowed to play the game?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 00:54:47


 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I enjoy 40k. I enjoy other games more, but 40k isn't a "miserable" experience. Just a less enjoyable one than it could be. And that's the rub, isn't it?

Just because I have fun playing 40k doesn't mean it can't be improved in dramatic ways so my enjoyment improves (and that of my opponents).

I don't think it's wrong to enjoy something while also loudly seeking to improve it. Like video games - does the fact that I think X character's moveset could be improved or that Y gun's bullet drop is unrealistic mean that I'm not allowed to play the game?

If it's less enjoyable, why not make it more enjoyable? It's a big sandbox and homebrewing something to have more fun makes plenty of sense to me.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I enjoy 40k. I enjoy other games more, but 40k isn't a "miserable" experience. Just a less enjoyable one than it could be. And that's the rub, isn't it?

Just because I have fun playing 40k doesn't mean it can't be improved in dramatic ways so my enjoyment improves (and that of my opponents).

I don't think it's wrong to enjoy something while also loudly seeking to improve it. Like video games - does the fact that I think X character's moveset could be improved or that Y gun's bullet drop is unrealistic mean that I'm not allowed to play the game?

If it's less enjoyable, why not make it more enjoyable? It's a big sandbox and homebrewing something to have more fun makes plenty of sense to me.


Because my club won't play games without following the rules. I call it the "cult of officialdom". People are skeptical of rules I wrote myself or homebrew things (unless I'm GMing a campaign or something, but I already do that for 3 systems so doing it for 40k just so I can rewrite the rules to be more like one of the other systems is too much).
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Hollow wrote:
A lot of people like being miserable. They enjoy wallowing in their own misery and because they are fundamentally unhappy they are annoyed by others who are happy or enjoy things. So they complain, they drag things down, they are like the dementors from Harry Potter. Everyone knows who they are... same old nics been moaning on Dakka for 10+ years.

It was also a bit of a hit for the Dakka community when Warseer fell. A lot of the negative dross that used to dwell over there have infected here... like a big negative tumor.


And a lot of people are annoyed by other people expressing their dissatisfaction, and respond to complaints about GW with personal attacks aimed at the complainer, for example by referring to them as cancer and using the vocabulary of disease. Thus illustrating the ironic fact that it's people who are "positive" towards GW generally who are actually marginally more likely to personally attack other people over their opinions than the "negative" posters.

It all comes down to investment. People complain because they're invested. People attack complainers because they're invested.

It shows how healthy 40k is. When GW really needs to start worrying is if people aren't complaining, because that shows they don't care. And it's a lack of caring that really kills a game system.
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




Mm. I always do like the 'sit in judgement' threads. They reveal a lot about people and how they're willing to treat others who differ from them.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I enjoy 40k. I enjoy other games more, but 40k isn't a "miserable" experience. Just a less enjoyable one than it could be. And that's the rub, isn't it?

Just because I have fun playing 40k doesn't mean it can't be improved in dramatic ways so my enjoyment improves (and that of my opponents).

I don't think it's wrong to enjoy something while also loudly seeking to improve it. Like video games - does the fact that I think X character's moveset could be improved or that Y gun's bullet drop is unrealistic mean that I'm not allowed to play the game?

If it's less enjoyable, why not make it more enjoyable? It's a big sandbox and homebrewing something to have more fun makes plenty of sense to me.


Because my club won't play games without following the rules. I call it the "cult of officialdom". People are skeptical of rules I wrote myself or homebrew things (unless I'm GMing a campaign or something, but I already do that for 3 systems so doing it for 40k just so I can rewrite the rules to be more like one of the other systems is too much).


So these people will trust you enough to play in a campaign where you've brewed some rules - but won't play them otherwise.
That's messed up.
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

That's pretty standard. If you're playing a campaign, everyone has agreed to play that campaign and has a chance to see the rules before it starts. They go into it knowing that it's a campaign with altered rules.

For a pick-up game, people don't want to waste time discussing altered rules, they just want to play the game.

 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I enjoy 40k. I enjoy other games more, but 40k isn't a "miserable" experience. Just a less enjoyable one than it could be. And that's the rub, isn't it?

Just because I have fun playing 40k doesn't mean it can't be improved in dramatic ways so my enjoyment improves (and that of my opponents).

I don't think it's wrong to enjoy something while also loudly seeking to improve it. Like video games - does the fact that I think X character's moveset could be improved or that Y gun's bullet drop is unrealistic mean that I'm not allowed to play the game?

If it's less enjoyable, why not make it more enjoyable? It's a big sandbox and homebrewing something to have more fun makes plenty of sense to me.


Because my club won't play games without following the rules. I call it the "cult of officialdom". People are skeptical of rules I wrote myself or homebrew things (unless I'm GMing a campaign or something, but I already do that for 3 systems so doing it for 40k just so I can rewrite the rules to be more like one of the other systems is too much).

That always frustrates me. The game is so much more than strict match play and people who cram it into that box are missing out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:
Spoiler:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I enjoy 40k. I enjoy other games more, but 40k isn't a "miserable" experience. Just a less enjoyable one than it could be. And that's the rub, isn't it?

Just because I have fun playing 40k doesn't mean it can't be improved in dramatic ways so my enjoyment improves (and that of my opponents).

I don't think it's wrong to enjoy something while also loudly seeking to improve it. Like video games - does the fact that I think X character's moveset could be improved or that Y gun's bullet drop is unrealistic mean that I'm not allowed to play the game?

If it's less enjoyable, why not make it more enjoyable? It's a big sandbox and homebrewing something to have more fun makes plenty of sense to me.


Because my club won't play games without following the rules. I call it the "cult of officialdom". People are skeptical of rules I wrote myself or homebrew things (unless I'm GMing a campaign or something, but I already do that for 3 systems so doing it for 40k just so I can rewrite the rules to be more like one of the other systems is too much).


So these people will trust you enough to play in a campaign where you've brewed some rules - but won't play them otherwise.
That's messed up.

I second this. Honestly one of the worst parts of the community as a general whole is the refusal to even engage with the wider game outside of strict GW systems.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 02:30:15


 
   
Made in nl
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





You can hate/dislike the company/game and still enjoy it you know. Seems weird I know, but for example I thoroughly despise most of the new lore but I can pretend it doesn't exist and keep to my own head canon.
At the end of the day it is for me a social hobby, even when I dislike the current state of the game/company I still like rolling some dice and spending time with my friends. I'm also the kind of person who will spend all day whining about X while still participating in X. Why? I dunno it is my nature to be negative, and I think quite a few other people are the asme. Grumbling can be relieving when not taken to extremes.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

 insaniak wrote:
That's pretty standard. If you're playing a campaign, everyone has agreed to play that campaign and has a chance to see the rules before it starts. They go into it knowing that it's a campaign with altered rules.

For a pick-up game, people don't want to waste time discussing altered rules, they just want to play the game.


It's not that hard to have a simple conversation with people you play with regularly while you set up the terrain, wait for a table, when you arrange a game via FB or whatever.
And one-off games are the best place to try something out. Beats playing in a whole campaign & discovering you dislike some rules change.
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

It's not that hard if you're open to that discussion. Again, a lot of gamers simply are not. Regular opponents or not, a lot of gamers are just not at all interested in house rules.

 
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





For a lot of people there's not much of a choice - they enjoy wargaming, throwing dice, moving models, but their community is just so overwhelming a GW game and resistance to trying an alternative can be very embedded, wherein sometimes no amount of "dude just convince others to play it" will work. So you end up in a vicious cycle of playing almost exclusively 40k/AoS because every year and a half a new edition of one of those games turns up and largely kills the alt-game scene for at least a few months, assuming it ever recovers (people play other games -> everyone tries GW's new edition -> people won't go back to those other games as they're perceived to be 'dead' because none is playing -> repeat)

Although these days I see more people complaining about the complainers than actual complaints. Both the complaints and fanboyism are two sides of the same sunk cost fallacy when it comes to GW games - both have invested so much time, effort and community into the bloody things neither wants or can let go, it just gets expressed as either Dwarfish Grumbling or wide-mouthed fanaticism for defending GW.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/18 02:48:23


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think the resistance to house rules (beyond the most basic stuff, e.g. 1st floor of ruins blocking LOS) generally comes from the fact that it basically never lasts. People don't want to dump time and energy into something they can't play except with a small number of people, and that is probably going to fizzle out anyway.

   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 Arbitrator wrote:
For a lot of people there's not much of a choice - they enjoy wargaming, throwing dice, moving models, but their community is just so overwhelming a GW game and resistance to trying an alternative can be very embedded, wherein sometimes no amount of "dude just convince others to play it" will work. So you end up in a vicious cycle of playing almost exclusively 40k/AoS because every year and a half a new edition of one of those games turns up and largely kills the alt-game scene for at least a few months, assuming it ever recovers (people play other games -> everyone tries GW's new edition -> people won't go back to those other games as they're perceived to be 'dead' because none is playing -> repeat)

Although these days I see more people complaining about the complainers than actual complaints. Both the complaints and fanboyism are two sides of the same sunk cost fallacy when it comes to GW games - both have invested so much time, effort and community into the bloody things neither wants or can let go, it just gets expressed as either Dwarfish Grumbling or wide-mouthed fanaticism for defending GW.

Very much this, which is a shame because GW has tried to say "you don't have to play the rules exactly how we wrote them" and tournament scenes use house rules of various levels so it's not like competitive play is "pure" 40k.

Personally I just see 40k as a big sandbox and wish people would stop insisting the only way to play is nearly identical sandcastles.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

40k would be a bigger sandbox, I think, if it were less popular, paradoxically.

It's greatest strength and greatest curse is its popularity. When I houserule something, I have to talk it over with 87+ 40k players at my club, or have the houserules change every game (because some agree and some don't). Generally, this results in "default 40k" being the ... well, default. Because not everyone agrees, but everyone plays each other.

Conversely, a group like, say, my Chain of Command group, or the 30k group whose narrative campaign I am overseeing, are totally up with new rules, campaign houserules, changes, homebrew lore, etc.

Even AOS players in my club are more open to houserules, though the very strong narrative community for AOS really reinforces narrative play in a way that seems absent from 40k. Is there a 40k equivalent to the Interstice? To the Great Weave? To NEON?
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
40k would be a bigger sandbox, I think, if it were less popular, paradoxically.

It's greatest strength and greatest curse is its popularity. When I houserule something, I have to talk it over with 87+ 40k players at my club, or have the houserules change every game (because some agree and some don't). Generally, this results in "default 40k" being the ... well, default. Because not everyone agrees, but everyone plays each other.

Conversely, a group like, say, my Chain of Command group, or the 30k group whose narrative campaign I am overseeing, are totally up with new rules, campaign houserules, changes, homebrew lore, etc.

Even AOS players in my club are more open to houserules, though the very strong narrative community for AOS really reinforces narrative play in a way that seems absent from 40k. Is there a 40k equivalent to the Interstice? To the Great Weave? To NEON?

Excellent point about the size of 40k likely holding it back a bit.

I think Crusade was an attempt to try and open things up but because it defines things so clearly it seems to have set boundries people aren't comfortable crossing.
   
Made in nl
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks






your mind

 insaniak wrote:
I can't speak for everybody, but for me, what kept me coming back long after I had lost interest in actually playing the game, and still keeps me checking in on new releases just to see what's happening, is investment.

I started playing 40K in 1994, and stopped playing about mid-way through 6th edition when the move to hardcover codexes made it impractical to keep up with the rules and I realised that I wasn't enjoying what the game had become anymore anyway. I have a cabinet full of painted miniatures, two shelves full of rulebooks and codexes, and more unpainted stuff sitting downstairs than I'll likely paint in my lifetime, particularly now that I'm not actively playing the game.

All of that adds up to a significant investment in money, time, and mental space, and just letting go of that is not easy. I did, in the end, by deciding to go back and revisit 2nd edition and largely ignore the new stuff... but that took a while.

It's really easy to dismiss it as people 'wanting something to be upset about'... but it's generally a lot deeper than that, from my experience. People want the thing they love to go on being the thing they love, and so they hang on in the hope that, despite all evidence to the contrary, at some point it will go back to being that thing.


This^^

Thanks Insaniak for saving me the time to type this out... I started a bit earlier, left and returned to the games table at two different times but kept the Dwarf subscription for a very long time regardless. This has been a conversation with GW (at least in my head and with friends and like-minded hobbyists online) that has lasted almost 30 years. Maybe this is what it feels like when a long time partner gets a neurological disease or goes off the rails in other ways, e.g. numarines, blowing up the old world... one falls in love with the original idea, the potential, and suffers when this potential is pi55ed away.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/18 04:19:51


   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






It's easy enough for me to enjoy the game, the company itself does things that bug me though.

Also as said above, it could be better.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Necrons got an underpowered and badly written index in 8th, CA17 did nothing for them, the codex had 3 good units and fixed none of the design issues. CA18 fixed a lot of units and nerfed the one brokenly powerful unit in the game. CA19 fixed even more stuff and while the design issues where still there casual lists became less and less crap. Things were going well, the game balance was improving.

CA20 was a slap to the face, balance would have been better off using 8th edition points with the new rules, the product was slapped together using an idiotic algorithm that did not take 9th edition's new rules into account and only a few units got to deviate from the algorithm.

So I hate the game right? No, I love the game. As soon as CA21 came out I started getting ready to play again, I just thought CA20 was too dumb and too bad to play, but the game is really fun. There are a dozen things I like about 9th, but why discuss those? How do you discuss how nice it is that Necron Warriors are finally good again after being a bit of a joke for an edition.

Complaing about Monoliths still being unviable is easier, you can discuss what it would take to make the Monolith viable and the design that leads to it being unviable. Maybe it should be able to FLY like it has always been able to Maybe it should not have taken a big price hike. Or maybe there is an actual way to make Monoliths work, that's also worth discussing, but most of the taktiks people have for making bad units work, don't generally work so that's going to create a negative atmosphere that discussing how "just push them across the board" tactics work for some undercosted units.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




I enjoy game discussion, and I mostly laugh at how bad some of GW stuff can get and people still buy it up.
I also think GW is causing as much damage to the hobby as it promotes, so it’s kind of sad for it to still be kind of crap as a company so often.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

Another perspective: GW always takes away what you love.

Saw this post. Perfectly describes what I'd consider the ideal set of rules.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/789567.page#10845416

You read something like that and realize 40k never gives you what you want. New editions don't really solve problems so much as introduce a new set.

There's something tragic about the game in how it evolves, railing against the change is natural and leads to renewal. For me, it's bittersweet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 05:43:39


   
 
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