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Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





So, i wanted to ask, if it is just me that sees the prices of the new and improved Primaris intercessors but this time heavier and is reminded of the bloodknights of the Vampire counts.
Basically, both units are, to put it mildly, steeply priced.
Local i am supposed to shell out 58 CHF for 5 dudes. 50 Euros in germany or 33£ in the UK.

And i am reminded back to the end times of WHFB (not the end times but basically where GW forced players to field multiple big elite blocks etc).

So maybee it's time to talk about prices, pricing structure, release structure etc. Especially since we now know that CA once again hides the points behind a paywall for what normally would be considered a balance patch in other games and therefore free of charge.

Am i the only one with a severe case of Déjà-vu or is this not in essence going in the same direction?

What will be some of the consequences of this? If you are a SM player are you intending to fork over money for them?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/24 09:19:33


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

I want 10 of the guys. Building up a primaris battle company, want a squad.

At $60 for 5, I’m in no rush.

Sure, they have nice rules, but I’m not playing at such a competitive level that I need to eek out every drop of power. And who knows how the pendulum will swing. They could be nerfed next week. Nobody knows.

So I’m waiting to see if they show up in some bundle box that I care about. Either a pure marine box with other stuff I could use, or another faction I play. (Unlike the necrons in the KT box)

   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM




United Kingdom

Heavy Intercessors are in Gravis Armour, and are actually cheaper per-model than the other Gravis units (Aggressors & Eradicators).

Also, didn't Blood Knights go down in cost with the switch from finecast to plastic?
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






beast_gts wrote:
Heavy Intercessors are in Gravis Armour, and are actually cheaper per-model than the other Gravis units (Aggressors & Eradicators).

Also, didn't Blood Knights go down in cost with the switch from finecast to plastic?


Yes they did, was $80 usd back in 7th and $100 at the start of 1.0 (but went down a little in 2.0) Centigors were the same.

15k+
3k
Emperor's Spears 2k
Beastmen 9500
CoS: 3500

Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say






Blood Knights are now plastic and almost half the price of the resin ones.
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

Witch Elves stood out to me as a particularly horrendous example from the end of WHFB. Sure £35 for 10 models doesn't look too bad for GW pricing, until you realise that in order for them to be useful on the table in 8th edition you needed 30-40 of them at the minimum. £105-£140 for a Core, not special or rare, unit was quite the price tag.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM




United Kingdom

I'm disturbed by the price of the Necron Flayed Ones - £31.50 for 5 models on a single small sprue while Immortals are £30 (but are larger and have options) and Warriors are £29 for 10.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

beast_gts wrote:
Heavy Intercessors are in Gravis Armour, and are actually cheaper per-model than the other Gravis units (Aggressors & Eradicators).

Also, didn't Blood Knights go down in cost with the switch from finecast to plastic?

But Aggressors and Eradicators make some sense in the gw pricing model of: "the less of them you need, the more they cost". That's why HS and Elites have always had a higher price per model than Troops, and why single HQ models are so outrageous compared to any of those. Heavy Intercessor are Troops. Is there a precedent for a Troops unit that costs this much per model? Kataphrons are troops, and pretty chunky, what's the MRSP on those?

Edit: Looks like 38 pounds or $58 for 3 Kataphrons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/24 12:57:02


 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





I'd look at Howling Banshees more to price issues than gravis armoured marines. I may get a box eventually, but in no rush.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

10€ per infantry sized trooper.

GW is insane. Just like the new slaanesh myrmidons.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I mean the direction is that 40k gets more and more expensive. Unfortunately until such time GW can't seemingly sell out of stock every 5 minutes, there's no obvious reason to stop pushing the price up and thereby making more money.

I guess I could be mean and say this supposed backlash is because its impacting Marine players - but I'm not even sure that's true.

Suffice to say paying getting 3.5~ points per £ (140/39.5) has become sadly quite standard. Compared to most recent releases the heavy Intercessors are actually quite reasonable. (Whether you think nearly £8 for a single model is sensible is another matter - but still.) Obviously its inferior to ye regular Intercessors at 5.7 points/£ - but arguably thats a very cheap kit by today's standards.

As said - Banshees are a pitiful 2.3 points/£. Flayed Ones are down to 2.06 points/£!

Put another way - if Heavy Intercessors were priced on a points basis like Flayed Ones the box would be £68. So hey - it could be a lot worse.
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Witch Elves stood out to me as a particularly horrendous example from the end of WHFB. Sure £35 for 10 models doesn't look too bad for GW pricing, until you realise that in order for them to be useful on the table in 8th edition you needed 30-40 of them at the minimum. £105-£140 for a Core, not special or rare, unit was quite the price tag.

And that's why WHFB was so unpopular for new players.

 Galas wrote:
10€ per infantry sized trooper.

GW is insane. Just like the new slaanesh myrmidons.

People are obviously still buying them regardless. GW aren't insane, it's the ones eagerly buying them at literally any price point who're insane.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/24 13:38:16


 
   
Made in cz
Regular Dakkanaut




£32.50 for a trio of Tyranid warriors, a classic troops choice, and a fairly modern kit. Starting at 1.57 points per £ for the cheapest setup.

£35 for a trio of Kataphron servitors, another troops choice, but at least these also have decent rules.

Heavy Intercessors are almost "cheap" in comparison.
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




Texas

I'm guessing a lot of us remember the promises made when they started seriously producing plastic regiments for fantasy. That first multi-part Chaos Warrior set had a bug article in White Dwarf and promised, among other things, that costs would go down. it did, briefly.

Terminators have been 50-60$ for a 5-man squad for a long time now. Gravis Intercessors I assume they feel are comparable. Not sure I agree but there you go.

Cavalry models have always been pricier than infantry because you have, technically, twice as many models in the unit - 5 riders, 5 mounts. So you're still getting ten models even if it only makes 5 playable elements in the game.

More 40k armies than 40k time ... 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Kitane wrote:
£32.50 for a trio of Tyranid warriors, a classic troops choice, and a fairly modern kit. Starting at 1.57 points per £ for the cheapest setup.

£35 for a trio of Kataphron servitors, another troops choice, but at least these also have decent rules.

Heavy Intercessors are almost "cheap" in comparison.


Theres a distinction between 3 big 50-point battle servitor models with 4 different weapon options for each arm for all 3 models and 1 little GEQ-sized 15pt howling banshee that is fully monopose.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM




United Kingdom

 the_scotsman wrote:
Kitane wrote:
£32.50 for a trio of Tyranid warriors, a classic troops choice, and a fairly modern kit. Starting at 1.57 points per £ for the cheapest setup.

£35 for a trio of Kataphron servitors, another troops choice, but at least these also have decent rules.

Heavy Intercessors are almost "cheap" in comparison.


Theres a distinction between 3 big 50-point battle servitor models with 4 different weapon options for each arm for all 3 models and 1 little GEQ-sized 15pt howling banshee that is fully monopose.


Yeah, Banshees got screwed. What size bases are Tyranid Warriors on these days - 50s?
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





find someone to split pariah nexus with you. It sells for around £75 online and you can probably sell all the terrain, board, rules etc for £15.
You've both saved money and got a free HQ out of it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Even if you can't find someone to split it with, someone on ebay/fb would snap your hand off for the Necrons at £30, considering they retail for over £50

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/24 20:14:16


   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Macon, GA

Tyel wrote:
I mean the direction is that 40k gets more and more expensive.


I'm not sure that's exactly the first comment about GW ever written online, but it's among the first, and it will be among the last.

GW is expensive, it always has been, it always will be. It's also always gotten more expensive. It's also, at least since I started 20 years ago, gotten expensive at a rate that really makes you wonder how GW expects to keep attracting new players. It's gotten so expensive people quit, etc. etc.

My point is, GW charges high prices because they can, and so far, it's worked for them.

My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 21,000pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
Loyalist Emperor's Children: 2500 points 
   
Made in us
Sinister Chaos Marine






You aren't alone, I feel a bit jerked around by this particular release, too. My thought process was basically this:

-Gets 9th SM codex: "Those Heavy Intercessors look pretty cool, I may give them a shot!"
-Gets 9E Deathwatch book: "Several of my Kill Teams are broken now because I don't have any Heavy Intercessors, guess I'll get some when they come out."
-Months later, the Kill Team box comes out with them in it:"I'm not paying $160 for 12 guys and some half assed 'terrain'. I might have bought this if it had been a deal."
-Months later, all those kits are up for pre order: "The joke is on me, 12 for $160 WAS a deal!"

Price wise for the single box, its not too much of a surprise though. They've been selling 5 man squads for $55 and 10 for $60 for a while. I can't recall if the CSM Terminators were $55 or $60 at release.

I'm still going to get a box and finish/refit my Deathwatch, but despite them "getting me" with this, price is a funny thing. Pre Covid and this past round of price hikes with the "patrol" boxes and such, I'd generally buy a few things a month. Over the past 6 months I've bought 2 books and one kit, two of them overpriced, but it didn't seem as bad as a less frequent purchase. I don't think I'll go back to the same buying habits I had before, and I wonder if others feel the same and GW will actually start losing sales. Especially now where, at least in the US, the consumer is seeing heavy inflation in nearly every area.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Polonius wrote:
Tyel wrote:
I mean the direction is that 40k gets more and more expensive.


I'm not sure that's exactly the first comment about GW ever written online, but it's among the first, and it will be among the last.

GW is expensive, it always has been, it always will be. It's also always gotten more expensive. It's also, at least since I started 20 years ago, gotten expensive at a rate that really makes you wonder how GW expects to keep attracting new players. It's gotten so expensive people quit, etc. etc.

My point is, GW charges high prices because they can, and so far, it's worked for them.


Not everything went up equal to inflation, a lot actually went down, special teams were the same cost per model as some heroes, some vehicle kits are cheaper even, and box sets are a hit or miss, some are more costly where others are a better deal. Its not black and white, you need to look at a large majority of models and units, and inflation.

Beast of Chaos has basically not gone up at all but inflation has, I paid $24.50 for Ungor box in 2001, it is now $30 if it followed inflation it would be around $37, this is the same for most of the BoC line, heck some even went down.

15k+
3k
Emperor's Spears 2k
Beastmen 9500
CoS: 3500

Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
Made in gb
Deadly Dire Avenger





Not Online!!! wrote:
Especially since we now know that CA once again hides the points behind a paywall for what normally would be considered a balance patch in other games and therefore free of charge.


All previous points updates have been made available as a free download from warhammer community, you've only needed to pay if you wanted a hard copy bundled in with the chapter approved supplement. The last hard copy of the munitorum field manual was also given away "free" with white dwarf. Unless I've missed something this doesn't seem like a valid gripe.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Unknown_Lifeform wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Especially since we now know that CA once again hides the points behind a paywall for what normally would be considered a balance patch in other games and therefore free of charge.


All previous points updates have been made available as a free download from warhammer community, you've only needed to pay if you wanted a hard copy bundled in with the chapter approved supplement. The last hard copy of the munitorum field manual was also given away "free" with white dwarf. Unless I've missed something this doesn't seem like a valid gripe.

The most recent points update was available as a free download. I'm not aware of any others that were.
   
Made in nl
[DCM]
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor






your mind

Not Online!!! wrote:
So, i wanted to ask,
Spoiler:
if it is just me that sees the prices of the new and improved Primaris intercessors but this time heavier and is reminded of the bloodknights of the Vampire counts.
Basically, both units are, to put it mildly, steeply priced.
Local i am supposed to shell out 58 CHF for 5 dudes. 50 Euros in germany or 33£ in the UK.

And i am reminded back to the end times of WHFB (not the end times but basically where GW forced players to field multiple big elite blocks etc).

So maybee it's time to talk about prices, pricing structure, release structure etc. Especially since we now know that CA once again hides the points behind a paywall for what normally would be considered a balance patch in other games and therefore free of charge.

Am i the only one with a severe case of Déjà-vu or is this not in essence going in the same direction?


What will be some of the consequences of this?
Spoiler:
If you are a SM player are you intending to fork over money for them?




3rd party minis, 3D printing, grey market resin, all will get a boost, while GW will continue to gouge the goodwill of loyal fanboiz...

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





I started a Deathwatch army because I had a bunch of unused marines from Tooth and Claw sitting around, because I like Kyria Draxus, and as Ordo Xenos, she fits with Deathwatch and because the Corvus Blackstar is one of my favourite models.

It also helped me weather the Marine envy that was June 2020 to January 2021.

I held off on the Kill team box not because I thought I'd get a better deal, but because the Flayed ones would have been the gateway drug to collecting Necrons.

I'm happy to be able to finish my Indomitor team- I'm so glad that Heavy Intercessors come in boxes of 5. I started the army to use 5 Intercessors and 3 Aggressors, but I wanted to field them as Kill Teams, and that meant buying two boxes of Outriders to round out my Fortis Team and an extra box of Aggressors plus Heavy Intercessors for my Indomitor team.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Unknown_Lifeform wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Especially since we now know that CA once again hides the points behind a paywall for what normally would be considered a balance patch in other games and therefore free of charge.


All previous points updates have been made available as a free download from warhammer community, you've only needed to pay if you wanted a hard copy bundled in with the chapter approved supplement. The last hard copy of the munitorum field manual was also given away "free" with white dwarf. Unless I've missed something this doesn't seem like a valid gripe.

The most recent points update was available as a free download. I'm not aware of any others that were.


This is preciscly myissue i take with it. They improved shortterm and then basically just reverted back to normal nickel and diming.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Slowroll wrote:

You aren't alone, I feel a bit jerked around by this particular release, too. My thought process was basically this:

-Gets 9th SM codex: "Those Heavy Intercessors look pretty cool, I may give them a shot!"
-Gets 9E Deathwatch book: "Several of my Kill Teams are broken now because I don't have any Heavy Intercessors, guess I'll get some when they come out."
-Months later, the Kill Team box comes out with them in it:"I'm not paying $160 for 12 guys and some half assed 'terrain'. I might have bought this if it had been a deal."
-Months later, all those kits are up for pre order: "The joke is on me, 12 for $160 WAS a deal!"

Price wise for the single box, its not too much of a surprise though. They've been selling 5 man squads for $55 and 10 for $60 for a while. I can't recall if the CSM Terminators were $55 or $60 at release.

I'm still going to get a box and finish/refit my Deathwatch, but despite them "getting me" with this, price is a funny thing. Pre Covid and this past round of price hikes with the "patrol" boxes and such, I'd generally buy a few things a month. Over the past 6 months I've bought 2 books and one kit, two of them overpriced, but it didn't seem as bad as a less frequent purchase. I don't think I'll go back to the same buying habits I had before, and I wonder if others feel the same and GW will actually start losing sales. Especially now where, at least in the US, the consumer is seeing heavy inflation in nearly every area.


Yup, this is preciscly the point i am going at.
Banshees you could technically stomach as an Eldar player. (even if their price is by some metrics more asinine....), but the implication of a troop choice entering that area of pricing is not particulary encouraging.
Also, yeah, in the US depending if that Inflation or scarcity of product keeps up that will for sure increase thoughts on what is needed/ what will get bought.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Arbitrator wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Witch Elves stood out to me as a particularly horrendous example from the end of WHFB. Sure £35 for 10 models doesn't look too bad for GW pricing, until you realise that in order for them to be useful on the table in 8th edition you needed 30-40 of them at the minimum. £105-£140 for a Core, not special or rare, unit was quite the price tag.

And that's why WHFB was so unpopular for new players.

 Galas wrote:
10€ per infantry sized trooper.

GW is insane. Just like the new slaanesh myrmidons.

People are obviously still buying them regardless. GW aren't insane, it's the ones eagerly buying them at literally any price point who're insane.


I disagree with WHFB being unpopular, even for newer players, it just wasn't feasible to start up in a timely manner (3000pts average over here) and the cost was offputting despite on many an occaision having better models and rules then 40k at the same time.

As for people being insane, i do think both of you have a point. However i think that the sales strategy which is basically whaling at this point, to use the term from the mobile games industry, isn't productive for a TG which you need an opponent, as in an actual opponent. When more and more players leave and there isn't any fresh blood and only the whales remain, who will they play against?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote:
I mean the direction is that 40k gets more and more expensive. Unfortunately until such time GW can't seemingly sell out of stock every 5 minutes, there's no obvious reason to stop pushing the price up and thereby making more money.

I guess I could be mean and say this supposed backlash is because its impacting Marine players - but I'm not even sure that's true.

I am ardently chaos. But i think this is one of the most pricy recent marine models that isn't even falling within GW's Elite therefore lower sales therefore higher price due to economy of scale system pricing. ...


Suffice to say paying getting 3.5~ points per £ (140/39.5) has become sadly quite standard. Compared to most recent releases the heavy Intercessors are actually quite reasonable. (Whether you think nearly £8 for a single model is sensible is another matter - but still.) Obviously its inferior to ye regular Intercessors at 5.7 points/£ - but arguably thats a very cheap kit by today's standards.

As said - Banshees are a pitiful 2.3 points/£. Flayed Ones are down to 2.06 points/£!

Put another way - if Heavy Intercessors were priced on a points basis like Flayed Ones the box would be £68. So hey - it could be a lot worse.


Yeah the price / pts metric has gone rather nuts on many units, granted flayed and banshees aren't that popular / are specialists off which you tend to need less which is probably another core issue i take with them being a troop for that price and only 5 / box...
However Price / model an easier comparison especially if people as jeff put it look to 3rd parties , is also positively nuts for a non specialist unit. 12$ for 1 slightly larger intercessor?....

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/05/25 08:08:27


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I would have accepted 5 big boys being the same cost as 10 not-so-big boys.

But that they're over AUD$100 per box is just absurd.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





beast_gts wrote:
Heavy Intercessors are in Gravis Armour, and are actually cheaper per-model than the other Gravis units (Aggressors & Eradicators).

Also, didn't Blood Knights go down in cost with the switch from finecast to plastic?


Just because the other boxes are also over costed doesn't make this box a steal. The old blood knights were criminal over the top robbery.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 AngryAngel80 wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
Heavy Intercessors are in Gravis Armour, and are actually cheaper per-model than the other Gravis units (Aggressors & Eradicators).

Also, didn't Blood Knights go down in cost with the switch from finecast to plastic?


Just because the other boxes are also over costed doesn't make this box a steal. The old blood knights were criminal over the top robbery.


You tell me, they weren't even that good looking, and i know more than one person appropriating chaos knights and bretonian ones or others to get "bloodknights".

Also another thing, it isn't like GW is just expensive, f.e. AoS troop boxes are somewhat priced sensibly.
Heck i get 20 Skelletons for 45 Euro.... the new ones. Which addmittedly look snazy, same with the new Wightking, which i honestly could build a Diorama or a whole army out off, especially with gave guard , and black knights aswell as the new skeletons...

Which is then absurd in a way... because there you have decently and addmittedly great looking troops priced pretty good ( in general AoS has quite good prices on their 20 / box troops) you could probably do really awesome things with and otos you have these supposed core units which just scream "late"- WHFB type monetisation /milking.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/25 11:36:23


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in gb
Screaming Shining Spear





Heavy intercessors look like a decent deal compared to dire avengers at £22.50 for five. Two boxes gets you max 120 PTS if you give the exarchs the glaives compared to a minimum 140 points for the gravis boys, so less points on the table for more money. Nevermind the fact that the kit is old and basic with only options for the exarch compared to multiple weapon load outs and much more detailed models for the marines.

 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




The difference is that eldar players don't want to play with DA, because they are bad, and sm players do, or at least did, want to use the heavy intercessors. Although at this point there is a good chance that the number of marine players wanting to buy a heavy intercessor based army is much lower, then it was when the rules poped up with the new codex.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
 
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