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Which codex would you remove to trim down the game ? (multiple choice poll)
Astra Militarum
Adepta Sororitas
Adeptus Mechanicus
Chaos Space marines
Chaos Daemons
Eldar
Dark Eldar
Necrons
Orks
T'au
Tyranids
Genestealers cult
Adeptus Custodes
Space Marine chapters standalone codex
Harlequins
Inquisition
Imperial knights/chaos knights
Greyknights
I would keep every standalone codex
Death Guard
Thousand Sons

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Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




Hello,

If you wanted to refocus the game on fewer codex, which ones would you drop as standalone and mix with others.

Multiple choice poll !

keep in mind that the question is not about MODELS - which can be repurposed into existing factions - it's about FACTION/CODEX

This message was edited 30 times. Last update was at 2021/06/08 09:50:01


 
   
Made in us
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you seem to have left out the one i think most people would vote for the most, imperial knights/traitor knights. i don't hate them or not want to play against them/as them but its hard to balance missions and such around a faction where fielding 4-5 models only is the norm

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[DCM]
Aspirant Tech-Adept






The only thing that needs trimming is Space Marines.
Not removal, mind you, but the amount of rules and models is insane.
Neither xenos nor Chaos need anything removed since they're the only counterpart to the buttload if Imperial armies... which are made up by a whole lot of SM.
Every other army has some niche or some purpose or playstyle they fill.

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wow, what a gakky poll.

This leaves out most of the actual options (like trimming some of the SM chapters down to a single codex to treat them like IG regiments)
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

Siegfriedfr wrote:
Hello,

If you had to reset 40k completely, and needed to refocus the game on fewer factions, which ones would you drop ?

My personal choice would be to remove chaos space marines and demons, to leave more room for Xenos factions, which i find more interesting than all the "evil space marines" that i think fits better in the 30k narrative.

I'd remove every faction played by people who actually think "Age of Sigmaring" 40k is a good idea. So in your case: every single Xenos. Every, single, one.

Let the galaxy BURN.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Bye bye eldar....

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

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You left out a bunch armies.

Harlequins probably first to remove. Just give them 1 entry in the CWE codex and treat them like an aspect. Just like thy used to.

Custodians - No need for such an army. They are just more space marine space marines. Just stop supporting this stupid army that never should have been an army.

Deathwatch...remove...just make a few unit entries that can be taken as allies...

Daemons...just blend with CSM.

Sisters of battle...Just blend with an inquisition faction - put greyknights in this codex also.


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 G00fySmiley wrote:
you seem to have left out the one i think most people would vote for the most, imperial knights/traitor knights. i don't hate them or not want to play against them/as them but its hard to balance missions and such around a faction where fielding 4-5 models only is the norm


AoS doesn't have as much of a problem with this. Ogors, and Sons of Behemat have special rules to help hold/take objectives, although their actual board presence is a little low.


To truly AoSify 40k, we'd have to remove some under-selling, unpopular factions that don't add a whole lot to the setting. The only Tomb Kings analogue I can think of is Ynnari, which are an almost pointless fluff addition in the grand scheme of things and can be represented by special characters taken by Aeldari factions anyways.

Bretonnia was effectively "a different flavor of humans" to the Empire, so looks like we drop... Black Templar? They seem the least popular/least updated of the Space Marines.

Then we add World Eaters, expand... trying to think of a Sylvaneth analogue in 40k... Kroot? and we already have a poster child faction a la Stormcast Eternals so I dunno what to do for them.

Also, the idea that AoS "refocused the game on fewer factions" when it in actuality split the game into a hundred mini-factions, and almost immediately added 3 "new" ones (Khorne Bloodbound, Stormcast, and Sylvaneth were very early additions) for the 2 they lost... seems silly. They net gained +1 right from the get-go even if you ignore the mini-faction split.
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say





The biggest issue would be ending the 40k universe in the first place. Blowing up the Old World is easy enough, 1 planet. 40k is a whole galaxy.

40k also has the problem where 13/35 of the factions are some variety of SM and SM get 50% of the releases each edition. There isn't a balance between Imperium/Chaos/Xenos releases. GW can't do anything too radical with the story because of the "guidelines" they set out for themselves.
In AoS the releases are split fairly evenly between the Grand Alliances as a whole and then factions individually. The only faction that hasn't got new models at all on the release of their Battle Tome was Cities of Sigmar but even then the new witch hunter duo is apparently for CoS. The story for AoS has a rocky start but now they've found their feet, GW has been knocking it out of the park with both new and returning characters shaking up the story. The setting having technically limitless possibility thanks to the inherently magical/infinite nature of the Mortal Realms means that pretty much anything goes.
"My Stormcast all consider themselves Non-Binary because none remember their past lives enough to assign themselves a gender."
"My Daughters of Khaine view Morathi as a false prophet and still fight for Sigmar."
etc.
You're given some building blocks on the generic background but it makes it a point to say that the general ideas don't apply everywhere i.e. Aqshy is the Realm of Fire but isn't just volcanoes and lava pits, it has sweltering jungles and frozen mountain ranges.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/07 17:55:57


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Thairne wrote:
The only thing that needs trimming is Space Marines.
Not removal, mind you, but the amount of rules and models is insane.
Neither xenos nor Chaos need anything removed since they're the only counterpart to the buttload if Imperial armies... which are made up by a whole lot of SM.
Every other army has some niche or some purpose or playstyle they fill.


How is it suppose to work then. DG and 1ksons, and possibly other cult legion armies having their own codex, while a SW or GK player should play different coloured ultramarines?

I wouldn't want to see any faction removed. Unless it is something like GW coming out with it at the start of an edition and saying, this is the last edition when we are going to have a separate eldar, dark elder, harlequin codex, after this edition they will have one book. 3 years is more or less enough for people who want to have fun with their army to have fun, and those who want to sell to sell their army.

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The problem with faction bloat to me is more that GW takes things that were once in another book and tries to split them off into their own standalone Codex without giving them enough content to actually run them as a standalone Codex. I'd rather do Knights as Mechanicum models (and expand the Mechanicum book some so you can use them as Dark Mechanicum), put the Inquisition books back together rather than trying to make the Inquisition, Orders Militant, Stormtroopers, and Assassins all standalone Codexes, put Daemons back in CSM, go back to 3.5e-style Legion appendixes for CSM, etc. rather than straight-up deleting anything.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/07 17:59:11


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Space Marines without hesitation. For an organisation that is semi-mythical to most of the Imperium at large they seem to turn up for a car park brawl. They also take the focus away from the true front liners of the Imperium without whom the whole thing would collapse. So Space Marines, Grey Knights, Custodes and Death Watch all get axed. Maybe a squad of basic tactical guys get put in as a squad of 3 as an expensive IG HQ choice but thats it.

Harlequins get cut and are represented in the Dark Eldar/Eldar book.

Chaos Marines stay because they're the big scary power army guys to make the IG look like the underdog. Daemons cut down to the basic types and greater daemons and back in the CSM book where they belong. No "supplemental" books for sub-factions.

All Imperial non-Astartes factions consolidated into one book and a bunch of units cut. So it should be about the size of the current Space Marine codex in the end with enough to run mono-faction armies if people want. The factions are generally represent by their iconic units. So Imperial Guard fulfill the tanks and bodies requirements, Sisters the elite, disciplined units and melee stuff, AdMech provide support buffs, Inquisition leadership and specialist roles etc.

Knights of all types gone.

Genestealer Cults gets a bunch of units cut and shoved into the Tyranid book. Generally late stage invasion stuff.

So thats us down to like 9 books?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/07 18:46:30



 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





So, I voted, but I think a different approach should be taken rather than "here's the line, and everything below it is dead".

Let's imagine that GW goes nearly belly-up for some reason or another. They need to drop huge swathes of their product line - the more the better. What armies should remain, and how should they be adjusted?

I'd say the most simplest way of moving forward again would be to focus on the Imperium/Others dynamic. That is to say, Imperium should make up half the game. With that said, ideally you want to fill in a matrix of "usually does everything on N+" and "Imerpium / Other".

So with that in mind, here's what I would do:

Imperium:
2+ : Space Marines
3+ : Admech
4+ : Astra Militarum

Other:
2+ : Chaos Space Marines
3+ : Necrons
4+ : Orks

And there you have it. Space Marines and Chaos are your elite factions, each one almost always succeeding at what they do, Admech and Necrons are your "crazy high tech" forces, and Astra Militarum and Orks are your "bodies for days, because you can't trust them alone".

 Galef wrote:
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Mississippi

I'd fold every marine chapter down to one ruleset. That'd mean making these just run off space marine rules:

- Primaris
- Deathwatch
- Grey Knight (they'd become an elite slot, terminators only)
- Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Black Templars, etc.

Chaos space marines would be similarly folded into one rule set.

I'd also dump Knights, Superheavies, Custodes (they'd just become a mercenary slot, like assassins) and Inquisition (again a slot that can be added to any Imperial faction).

Dark Eldar, Corsairs, Harlequins and Ynarri would all be folded into a single Eldar book/faction.

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Made in de
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Just to understand the question as the OP mentioned it's not about removing models:
Are we talking about codexes fusing together or being outright removed or is this about the lore?

Codex wise I could see the three Eldar Factions fusing into one, some SM books going back into their "parent book", maybe (!) Greyknights and sisters fusing into one codex as well as (another maybe) Imperial Guard and either Admech or Sisters. Mind you I don't imply that the mentioned factions are not cool codexes on their own, but I think you could put them together into one book, if you insist on reducing the number of codizes.

Lore Wise: I would stay with none should be removed. All bring something to the table that adds to the flavor of the setting.

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Chaos works better in AoS because it's clearly split along the God alignments and with StD in the middle. All StD forces can be God aligned or you can specifically go for the stuff in each God book or you can mix and match with mortals and demons in the same books.
For amalgamated books I would say:

Imperium
Astartes - All the Chapter rules and some of the special rules. Sadly most of if not all the Firstborn stuff would have to be axed to fit this in.
Admech - Mix the Knights and Admech together keeping the ability to run Knights as their own army maybe stick Dark Mech.
Orders Militant - Deathwatch, Grey Knights, SoB, Inquisition plus Assassins maybe. Can take Inquisitorial units in the army but don't have to. No mix and matching Chambers or Ordos within the same detachment.
Astra Militarum - Keep it the same TBH. Maybe put Brood Brothers/Chaos/Gue'vesa style in there as a reg doctrine restricting unit options but allowing mixed forces or something.

Chaos
In the Perfect World, we'd have the God-marked Legions fleshed out to their AoS counterparts. From there carbon copy the AoS style books. EZ.

Xenos
Aeldari - Stick them pointy ears together. Work it the same way as Orders Militant. Select a subtype and get unit options and special rules.
Necrons - Keep em' the same.
Orks - ^ see above.
T'au - ^ see above.
Nid's - ^ see above.
GSC - Distinct enough from Nid's and AM to get their own book. Maybe flesh it out a bit to justify them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/07 18:24:44


 
   
Made in es
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 Sim-Life wrote:
Space Marines without hesitation. For an organisation that is semi-mythical to most of the Imperium at large they seem to turn up for a car park brawl. They also take the focus away from the true front liners of the Imperium without whom the whole thing would collapse. So Space Marines, Grey Knights, Custodes and Death Watch all get axed. Maybe a squad of basic tactical guys get put in as a squad of 3 as an expensive IG HQ choice but thats it.

Harlequins get cut and are represented in the Dark Eldar/Eldar book.

Chaos Marines stay because they're the big scary power army guys to make the IG look like the underdog. Daemons cut down to the basic types and greater daemons and back in the CSM book where they belong. No "supplemental" books for sub-factions.

All Imperial non-Astartes factions consolidated into one book and a bunch of units cut. So it should be about the size of the current Space Marine codex in the end. The factions are generally represent by their iconic units. So Imperial Guard fulfill the tanks and bodies requirements, Sisters the elite, disciplined units and melee stuff, AdMech provide support buffs, Inquisition leadership and specialist roles etc.

Knights of all types gone.

Genestealer Cults gets a bunch of units cut and shoved into the Tyranid book. Generally late stage invasion stuff.

So thats us down to like 9 books?


What an horrible wargame universe this would be, TBH.

Another thread for space marine haters and imperial guard fanboys, nothing to see there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/07 18:25:10


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in de
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Assuming no one would lose rules for their beloved collection...

Knights, Inquisition, Assassins and other random imperial stuff is long overdue for just getting rolled into a "Agents of the Imperium" book.

On the same note, Ynnari and Harlequins could be rolled into a book that can be added to either aeldari faction.

No more codex: five datasheets.

Last, but not least, just make Space Marines a codex just as complex and variable as the other "big" codices: Eldar, Orks, CSM, Nids, Tau...
So a chapter like blood angels would be no more than a chapter trait, a single psychic power and warlord trait, as well as 6-8 stratagems, plus maybe a special character or two.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/07 18:28:29


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Made in pl
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That would be a litteral down rank from having a big set of rules to having practicaly nothing. No one, who plays and mains such a faction, would agree to something like that happening. And if marines being the core seller for GW, there is little chance of that ever happening.


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 Thairne wrote:
The only thing that needs trimming is Space Marines.
Not removal, mind you, but the amount of rules and models is insane.
Neither xenos nor Chaos need anything removed since they're the only counterpart to the buttload if Imperial armies... which are made up by a whole lot of SM.
Every other army has some niche or some purpose or playstyle they fill.
Echoing this.

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Adeptus Custodes: The Emperor's personal bodyguard should stay on Terra; why are they now fighting battles across the galaxy? This is an army that should never have been created. A couple models for collectors, sure, but not an entire faction.

Tau: This faction never seemed to fit into 40k for me. Maybe not "grimdark" enough for my tastes.

Space Marine chapters: I didn't mind when chapters like Salamanders, Iron Hands, and White Scars were "Codex" chapters that were included in the Space Marines Codex. But with each now getting its own supplement on top of the original Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels it has gotten a bit ridiculous.

Also, GW really needs to get on with separating Primaris from old Marines. The number of datasheets in the Space Marines Codex is now absurd. This is an inevitable change that has been hanging over 40k for the last several years. Just do it GW, you know you want to sell Space Marine players two books: Primaris and old/vintage/retro/firstborn/whatever you call them Space Marines.

Harlequins and Ynnari: Just merge them into the Eldar Codex. That book would still end up with a lot less datasheets than the Space Marines Codex.

Genestealer Cults: Merge with Tyranids, as 2nd edition had them together.

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I agree - space marines should be condensed.

I really don't know what to do with BA/SW/DA if they are allowed to keep being so snowflake just but those 3 in one codex - GK should just be put into an Inquisition codex.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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 Galas wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
Space Marines without hesitation. For an organisation that is semi-mythical to most of the Imperium at large they seem to turn up for a car park brawl. They also take the focus away from the true front liners of the Imperium without whom the whole thing would collapse. So Space Marines, Grey Knights, Custodes and Death Watch all get axed. Maybe a squad of basic tactical guys get put in as a squad of 3 as an expensive IG HQ choice but thats it.

Harlequins get cut and are represented in the Dark Eldar/Eldar book.

Chaos Marines stay because they're the big scary power army guys to make the IG look like the underdog. Daemons cut down to the basic types and greater daemons and back in the CSM book where they belong. No "supplemental" books for sub-factions.

All Imperial non-Astartes factions consolidated into one book and a bunch of units cut. So it should be about the size of the current Space Marine codex in the end. The factions are generally represent by their iconic units. So Imperial Guard fulfill the tanks and bodies requirements, Sisters the elite, disciplined units and melee stuff, AdMech provide support buffs, Inquisition leadership and specialist roles etc.

Knights of all types gone.

Genestealer Cults gets a bunch of units cut and shoved into the Tyranid book. Generally late stage invasion stuff.

So thats us down to like 9 books?


What an horrible wargame universe this would be, TBH.


Why?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/07 18:44:32



 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I'd like to see Chaos smooshed into an uber faction where you'd have warriors of chaos (CSM and their toys), daemons of chaos, and mortals of chaos (traitor guard, beastmen/cultist mutants, dark mechanicus) that you can take solo or mix 'n match, along with devotions to one of the chaos gods or the entire pantheon.

So while it would technically be a slimming down of factions, within the greater Chaos faction itself, players would have a tremendous amount of flexibility on how to build their army.

And yes, Space Marines should be scaled down to one codex. There's absolutely no reason for each of their subfactions to receive their own books when every other army's subfactions can fit in their own book. If this results in a reduction in uniqueness for space marines, it's healthier for the game. If the astartes were any other faction, there would also be an argument in including Grey Knights/Deathwatch in their number for flavor.

   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




What i would do :

Imperium : 3 codex
- SM is one single codex, and each chapter (including DW and BT) get specific army rules, relics, HQ etc. oldmarines become "legend" units and are removed as a product. for the purpose of WYSIWYG, players can use oldmarines as primaris.
- Astra unchanged
- Knights are removed from the 40k ruleset and have their own "superheavy game"
- Sisters, Greyknights and inquisition are one single Ecclesiarchy codex
- minor imperium factions/units (assassins, SoS, custodes) gets free downloadable rules/points and are considered as IMPERIUM mercenaries detachments
- Custodes FW units are not supported in 40K

Chaos: 1 codex
- Demons are removed as a standalone codex. A trimmed down selection of demons become available in the CSM codex.
- CSM get one single codex, similarly to SM, with specific army-rules and army-specific units (4 main heretic Primarchs (Mortarion, Magnus, Angron, Fulgrim), one for Be'lakor, 1 for Chaos united). also, khorne and slaanesh CSM get an expanded range of marine-type models (marines, terminators, some specialists, and characters/HQ/Primarchs) to match DG/TS

Eldar : 1 codex
- Eldar become one codex including 2 factions : Craftworlds and Drukhari. Harlequins become "mercenary" units for both factions, and Ynnari is the faction that allows to create mixed lists of both main factions

Xenos: 5 codex
- Tyranids unchanged
- GSC unchanged
- Orks unchanged
- Necrons unchanged
- T'au unchanged

This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2021/06/10 18:09:12


 
   
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 AnomanderRake wrote:
The problem with faction bloat to me is more that GW takes things that were once in another book and tries to split them off into their own standalone Codex without giving them enough content to actually run them as a standalone Codex. I'd rather do Knights as Mechanicum models (and expand the Mechanicum book some so you can use them as Dark Mechanicum), put the Inquisition books back together rather than trying to make the Inquisition, Orders Militant, Stormtroopers, and Assassins all standalone Codexes, put Daemons back in CSM, go back to 3.5e-style Legion appendixes for CSM, etc. rather than straight-up deleting anything.

Hard agree. I voted for Harlequins/Custodes (amongst others) not because I think the game would be better off without them, but because GW does not seem to feel the need to expand these forces out into full-blown factions (which they shouldn't for lore reasons) and there is room in other codices (or prospective codices) to keep the individual units around in some form.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Knights don't belong in the game, but they're here, so they're not going anywhere.

I don't think faction bloat is actually a problem 40k really suffers from. Every faction except Quins and maybe the Knight factions have reasonably complete army ranges. Inquisition etc aren't real factions, they're just little list additions; in the case of the Inquisition, they do need to find a way to make taking the non-Inquisitor elements of the faction viable.

The problem with bloat in 40k isn't really the number of factions, it's rules bloat within the factions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/07 19:23:23


 
   
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 AnomanderRake wrote:
The problem with faction bloat to me is more that GW takes things that were once in another book and tries to split them off into their own standalone Codex without giving them enough content to actually run them as a standalone Codex. I'd rather do Knights as Mechanicum models (and expand the Mechanicum book some so you can use them as Dark Mechanicum), put the Inquisition books back together rather than trying to make the Inquisition, Orders Militant, Stormtroopers, and Assassins all standalone Codexes, put Daemons back in CSM, go back to 3.5e-style Legion appendixes for CSM, etc. rather than straight-up deleting anything.


I'm of a similar mind. I don't know that I would fully cut anything from the game, but there are quite a lot of books that should really be rolled back into other books. Harely's and anything Ynnari should probably just be a few extra options in the Craftworld book. Custodes, could probably be in the Marine book (along with continuing to trim the "Marine Fat" a bit), Deathwatch, Inquisition, and possibly even Grey Knights could get rolled into a 3.5 style "Witch Hunters" book.

I like the idea of combining CSM and Demons into one book, but would the resulting book be even thicker than the current marine one? For me that seems like a really complicated book, but I'd be for it if it could be pulled off.

Would also probably take the Knights codex, split it in half, and put the "Questor Mechanicus" units in the Mechanicus codex, and the Imperialis units in the IG book maybe?

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I would not get rid of any faction at this point, that is unfair to people who bought the models. We are stuck with what we have.

What I would like (at least for chaos) is they make one book that is Armies of Chaos, which includes inside it a codex for CSM (legions and renegades), TS, DG, WE, EC, Daemons, lost and the damned, and chaos knights. Then when they want to update the chaos factions they just need to update one book. I would even pay more money for it. They could probably do this for imperial/eldar factions to but Chaos is the one it put the most thought into.
   
 
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