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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Beaverton OR

Hey folks,
Just a simple discussion topic here today (continued from another topic)

In 9th, do we need some kind of universal buff to tanks/vehicles? If so, what would be a good example of a simple balanced rule that might address this issue?
(Admin note: if you think this topic would be a better fit in the proposed rules or tactics forums you have my blessing to move it or delete it. I honestly couldn't decide where it fit Best)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/10 22:50:26


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight





Make aircraft great again. Getting hit with flamers and charged by "flying infantry" completely took me out of the game.

There's really just problems with vehicles in general.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/10 21:51:22


 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Rejigger the S/T table so small arms aren't a meaningful threat to vehicles/monsters, and make "blast" weapons only able to hit them once, and we might start getting somewhere.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
I'll Be Back




I know the game is already swamped with invulns, but any vehicle without one (Lemun Russ, Land Raiders) are always outclassed by those with them (Raiders, Doomsday Arks). Those without one are usually free kills. Either they should all get an invuln of 5++/6++ to reflect their heavy armor, or AP should be scaled back for most things besides dedicated AT guns.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch







Bring back and tweak old wounding chart.
Make T7/8 relevant.
Make vehicles have an AP immunity I.e. if you're a tank you ignore the first two points of AP.
However at the same time I dont see why you shouldn't be able to one shot a vehicle tank with a well placed Heavy weapon..

Fortunately im not a game designer lol.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/10 22:45:09


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




 Argive wrote:

Bring back and tweak old wounding chart.
Make T7/8 relevant.
Make vehicles have an AP immunity I.e. if you're a tank you ignore the first two points of AP.



Spoiler:



Make tanks or anything of t7 and has a keyword VEHICLE immune to anti-tank. Give anything las-cannon and melta ish a "Anti-tank" ability keyword. I am sick of seeing my Telemon lose wounds to a S3 shooting weapon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/10 22:51:37


 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Making tanks tougher against lasguns and bolters isn't going to help much when what actually kills them is melta and lance weapons.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Making tanks tougher against lasguns and bolters isn't going to help much when what actually kills them is melta and lance weapons.


If those would wound on 5's and you had a an everage of 5+ save, as well as be quite scarce and priced adequately, I think that could be reasonable.
I mean people cant expect Not to loose tanks at all. But it should probably take all of your dedicated AT to bring down a tank.

At the moment we have armies easily popping two or more T7 3+ vehicles in the first turn. That kinds sucks IMO

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 Sledgehammer wrote:
Make aircraft great again. Getting hit with flamers and charged by "flying infantry" completely took me out of the game.

There's really just problems with vehicles in general.


Why? Celestine kills an entire fleet of Chaos fighters in her book. One Scrapjet isn't at all out of her capabilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
 Argive wrote:

Bring back and tweak old wounding chart.
Make T7/8 relevant.
Make vehicles have an AP immunity I.e. if you're a tank you ignore the first two points of AP.



Spoiler:



Make tanks or anything of t7 and has a keyword VEHICLE immune to anti-tank. Give anything las-cannon and melta ish a "Anti-tank" ability keyword. I am sick of seeing my Telemon lose wounds to a S3 shooting weapon.


None of these do anything to make tanks better or help them survive past the first turn. They're just 'muh immersion' rules and they're useless. They're also poorly thought out but that's beside the point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Rejigger the S/T table so small arms aren't a meaningful threat to vehicles/monsters, and make "blast" weapons only able to hit them once, and we might start getting somewhere.


No we wouldn't. Tanks are dying in 2 hits to melta and Dark Lances. Small arms have never been a significant threat and multi-d6 blast weapons haven't been relevant tank killers for over a year (unless they were intended to be. Even then melta tends to be better).

Again, these are 'muh immersion' rules, not something that actually makes tanks more playable.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/10 23:12:36


2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight





ERJAK wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
Make aircraft great again. Getting hit with flamers and charged by "flying infantry" completely took me out of the game.

There's really just problems with vehicles in general.


Why? Celestine kills an entire fleet of Chaos fighters in her book. One Scrapjet isn't at all out of her capabilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
 Argive wrote:

Bring back and tweak old wounding chart.
Make T7/8 relevant.
Make vehicles have an AP immunity I.e. if you're a tank you ignore the first two points of AP.



Spoiler:



Make tanks or anything of t7 and has a keyword VEHICLE immune to anti-tank. Give anything las-cannon and melta ish a "Anti-tank" ability keyword. I am sick of seeing my Telemon lose wounds to a S3 shooting weapon.


None of these do anything to make tanks better or help them survive past the first turn. They're just 'muh immersion' rules and they're useless. They're also poorly thought out but that's beside the point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Rejigger the S/T table so small arms aren't a meaningful threat to vehicles/monsters, and make "blast" weapons only able to hit them once, and we might start getting somewhere.


No we wouldn't. Tanks are dying in 2 hits to melta and Dark Lances. Small arms have never been a significant threat and multi-d6 blast weapons haven't been relevant tank killers for over a year (unless they were intended to be. Even then melta tends to be better).

Again, these are 'muh immersion' rules, not something that actually makes tanks more playable.
And you think making aircraft suceptible to being destroyed by any boy who happens to be wearing a jetpack is a positive play experience? Stormboys should not be a viable anti air option, just as a lasgun shouldn't be able to be an anti tank Weapon. Ohh but Mkoll turned his lagun into a krak grenade!!!! Yeah no thanks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/10 23:23:42


 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





I dunno, a crowd of orks using jump packs to fly up to a plane and beat the crap out of the pilot sounds very 40k to me.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Today I learned "immersion" isn't important in game design.

As a game designer, this is news to me. I will have great news for the office when I get back.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Argive wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Making tanks tougher against lasguns and bolters isn't going to help much when what actually kills them is melta and lance weapons.


If those would wound on 5's and you had a an everage of 5+ save, as well as be quite scarce and priced adequately, I think that could be reasonable.
I mean people cant expect Not to loose tanks at all. But it should probably take all of your dedicated AT to bring down a tank.

At the moment we have armies easily popping two or more T7 3+ vehicles in the first turn. That kinds sucks IMO

I agree that super effective AT weapons like multi-meltas should be more expensive and therefore harder to spam, and like your idea for allowing tanks to ignore low AP, but making things like S8 and higher weapons wound them on 5s would be a bit much. AT weapons should be able to threaten tanks. I'd start by giving anything that qualifies as a MBT a 2+ save. That way your always getting a save against melta and lance weapons but not invalidating their AP like an invul would. Wouldn't mind bringing back Armoured Ceramite as a purchasable option either, to invalidate the bonus for half range melta.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I dunno, a crowd of orks using jump packs to fly up to a plane and beat the crap out of the pilot sounds very 40k to me.


It is literally a scene of Space Marine the videogame and it was awesome.


Spoiler:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/11 00:09:11


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight





 Galas wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
I dunno, a crowd of orks using jump packs to fly up to a plane and beat the crap out of the pilot sounds very 40k to me.


It is literally a scene of Space Marine the videogame and it was awesome.


Spoiler:

Yes, that's why I used it as an example. Designing your game systems around events and circumstances that are cool because they deviate from the norm is bad. You functionally render vehicles and aircraft obsolete and redundant. Why would I ever take a flyer if boys can just assault a vehicle going at least 700mph? Why would I want to take a tank if anyone can harm it? It's antithetical to the very idea of a tank in the first place.

Vehicles don't feel like vehicles.

7th edition tanks and aircraft were so much more immersive to use.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/11 00:33:23


 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







ERJAK wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Rejigger the S/T table so small arms aren't a meaningful threat to vehicles/monsters, and make "blast" weapons only able to hit them once, and we might start getting somewhere.


No we wouldn't. Tanks are dying in 2 hits to melta and Dark Lances. Small arms have never been a significant threat and multi-d6 blast weapons haven't been relevant tank killers for over a year (unless they were intended to be. Even then melta tends to be better).

Again, these are 'muh immersion' rules, not something that actually makes tanks more playable.


I care a lot more about my immersion than what's happening on tournament tables, yeah.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in mx
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Yes, that's why I used it as an example. Designing your game systems around events and circumstances that are cool because they deviate from the norm is bad.


Tyranid flying creatures routinely assault aircraft, hell the Hive Crone is built around assaulting aircraft and gargoyle swarms are repeatedly noted to be a threat to aircraft.
So assaulting a vehicle going at 1200 km/h is actually part of the norm for 40k.

As for my suggestion, give most vehicles/monsters 1 more toughness. A jump from T7 to 8 and T8 to 9 would have a considerable effect against the current AT weapons like multi-meltas and dark lances, which are S8.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/11 01:03:07


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I believe most vehicles just need 50% more wounds. Nothing more. That for and starters. Most infantry is gaining defensive stats, tougthness, saves, wounds. But vehicles have remained the same.

SAD

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight





 Tyran wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
Yes, that's why I used it as an example. Designing your game systems around events and circumstances that are cool because they deviate from the norm is bad.


Tyranid flying creatures routinely assault aircraft, hell the Hive Crone is built around assaulting aircraft and gargoyle swarms are repeatedly noted to be a threat to aircraft.
So assaulting a vehicle going at 1200 km/h is actually part of the norm for 40k.

As for my suggestion.
Give most vehicles/monsters 1 more toughness. A jump from T7 to 8 and T8 to 9 would have a considerable effect against the current AT weapons like multi-meltas and dark lances, which are S8.
Those Tyranid bio forms are genetically engineered to function like that, and are essentially just biological flyers. Those are fine.

Having a zephyrim squad, storm boys, and assault marines, attacking an aircraft at 700+ mph is ludicrous and unfun. It's why I quit 8th.
   
Made in mx
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

 Galas wrote:
I believe most vehicles just need 50% more wounds. Nothing more. That for and starters. Most infantry is gaining defensive stats, tougthness, saves, wounds. But vehicles have remained the same.

SAD

I would prefer more toughness rather than more wounds, as the toughness value is painfully underused.

It would also help S9 and higher weapons to have their niche rather than just being outperformed by S8.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/11 01:13:44


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 Tyran wrote:

As for my suggestion, give most vehicles/monsters 1 more toughness. A jump from T7 to 8 and T8 to 9 would have a considerable effect against the current AT weapons like multi-meltas and dark lances, which are S8.


Realistically, we could go as far as T10. Before 8th edition Railguns would glance vehicles like Land Raiders and Leman Russ tanks on a 4+, and penetrate on a 5+.

With Strength no longer having a cap of 10 it makes things like 2x Strength melee attacks more interesting, and ranged weapons with S12 or more actually viable choices.
   
Made in mx
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

Jarms48 wrote:

Realistically, we could go as far as T10. Before 8th edition Railguns would glance vehicles like Land Raiders and Leman Russ tanks on a 4+, and penetrate on a 5+.

With Strength no longer having a cap of 10 it makes things like 2x Strength melee attacks more interesting, and ranged weapons with S12 or more actually viable choices.


Agree, although with the condition that T8 would be as rare as all around AV14 was, ie Land Raiders and Monoliths. I would prefer Leman Russes to be T9, because they aren't as tough as the previous mentioned vehicles.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/11 01:19:10


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Right now the Wraithlord and the Reaver Titan are both T8. Tell me that makes sense.

"bUt It HaS sEvEnTy WoUnDs!!!1"

Yes. As it should do. But why is it T8 like a Russ or a Wraithlord?

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Make aircraft great again. Getting hit with flamers and charged by "flying infantry" completely took me out of the game.
Easy fixes for that:

Weapons with a base range of 12" or less cannot target aircraft. Are there any flamers with a range greater than 12" (ignoring auras/buffs).

Split "Fly" into "Fly" and "Hover". This solves all sorts of problems (like Primaris vehicles and Monoliths) without giving them unlimited movement like actual flyers.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/11 01:24:04


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




It only takes 1 bird/rock/person being sucked into the engine intake to bring down a flyer. I think making the aircraft rule have an automatic -1 to hit would be a good start to defending it from flying whatevers. If a model is designed to disable aircraft then give it a +1 to hit the aircraft (thereby nullifying the aircraft rule's defensive bonus) or, if it is specifically designed to bring down aircraft (ala an AA gun) it could have a +2 vs aircraft. People tend to forget that aircraft are not really that tough mechanically as a general rule. For those warthogs just increase either the wounds and/or toughness to represent their incredible resiliency.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Yeah but Ork players don't want everything they have hitting planes on 6's.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in nz
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker



New Zealand

For tanks I would double the wounds. You plink it but its more effective to bring AT guns.

For flyers I would make it that they always count as 12" further away. So if you have a weapon, like flamers, that have less than 12" range you will almost always be out of range.
   
Made in rs
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

-1 to damage would solve it.

Bolters and lasguns would do nothing, guns that matter would still do a lot of damage.

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





How to make tanks better?

Destroy them with Admech, cannibalize them with the Tech Scavengers agenda and use the scap to build BEAUTIFUL MACHIIIIINES! 1100010101011101010!

LOL
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 Tyran wrote:

Agree, although with the condition that T8 would be as rare as all around AV14 was, ie Land Raiders and Monoliths. I would prefer Leman Russes to be T9, because they aren't as tough as the previous mentioned vehicles.


If a Leman Russ is T9, 2+ armour against ranged attacks (3+ armour in engagement range) I'd be fine with that.
   
Made in us
Blessed Living Saint




On the Internet

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Rejigger the S/T table so small arms aren't a meaningful threat to vehicles/monsters, and make "blast" weapons only able to hit them once, and we might start getting somewhere.

Could just give vehicles a -1 damage trait against shooting (I'd argue the same for monstrous creatures as well). That takes small arms out of the equation and reduces weapons for countering elite infantry to chip damage which seems more fitting. Only reason I specify shooting is that getting next to a vehicle and doing damage it is an effective strategy in real life so the same for 40k would make sense.
   
 
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