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Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Those were the days man - if they rolled a 6 you lost 1 model in a unit. Now days...you spend 1 Cp and you lose a whole unit.

Shoot at a unit of scatter bikes and they jink to get a 4+ save and hit on 6's the next turn and can't really hurt you. Now...you shoot at a unit of chaff infantry and they get 2+ saves.

Man this game totally blows now.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Nahhhhhh. You miss your free 500 points (or whatever it was, I forget the specifics) of units for using your "fluffy" formation.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

" I miss the days of scatter bikes and D weapons."

No. You don't.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Gotta be a troll post
   
Made in ie
Pustulating Plague Priest





Every tyranid codex to me is boring because I compare the units in it to the first codex I ever owned (2nd Ed). I want my WS7 S6 genestealers and T8 W10 carnifexes back.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 18:26:33



 
   
Made in nl
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Care to explain to a newer player what these things were and what made them good compared to what we have now? I've heard rumors of OP scatterbikes and scary D-weapons but I never really understood what that meant.
   
Made in ca
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer



Ottawa

 Castozor wrote:
Care to explain to a newer player what these things were and what made them good compared to what we have now? I've heard rumors of OP scatterbikes and scary D-weapons but I never really understood what that meant.

Before the introduction of the Damage characteristic, and back when Strength was capped at 10 and vehicles had an Armor Value instead of Toughness and save, there was a brief period of time during which Destroyer weapons (D-weapons) were the bane of tanks. Those weapons used a whole different system of wounding.

(Dunno what Scatterbikes are.)

Cadians, Sisters of Battle (Valorous Heart), Drukhari (Obsidian Rose)

Read my Drukhari short stories: Chronicles of Commorragh 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Castozor wrote:
Care to explain to a newer player what these things were and what made them good compared to what we have now? I've heard rumors of OP scatterbikes and scary D-weapons but I never really understood what that meant.


In 3e-7e vehicles didn't have a toughness or an armour save, they had front, side, and rear armour from 10-14, and when you attacked them you rolled d6+Strength. If your total equalled their armour you got a "glancing hit", if it was greater you got a "penetrating hit". The effects varied from edition to edition, but in 6th and 7th vehicles had "hull points" and any glancing or penetrating hit would remove one. Scatterbikes are just Craftworld Windrider Jetbikes, only in 7th they were Troops and they'd just gotten the ability to put an upgrade gun on every model. They could move and fire freely without penalty, they had a 2d6" assault phase move so they could pop in and out of line of sight on the same turn, and they put down four shots a model at 36" range, so they were incredibly destructive to anything AV12 and under as well as making non-vehicle models make loads and loads of saves.

"D-Weapons" was how the game handled really big guns in the days when Strength was capped at 10 and everything did one damage. They wounded/penetrated everything in the game on 2+, and if you got a 6 to wound they no-save RFPed almost anything they hit. This would have been pretty much fine if GW had been content to limit them to superheavy weapons like they did before 7th, but in 7th some joker decided that all distortion weapons in the Eldar book should be D-strength, which meant you could cheaply and easily wreck anything your scatterbikes weren't efficient at killing.

Both were bad design decisions. Anyone who claims to miss either is either being sarcastic or making a hyperbolic point that they prefer fighting the most broken things in 7th to fighting the most broken things in 9th. Personally I don't miss those specific rules, but I'd rather have them than play 9th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galas wrote:
" I miss the days of scatter bikes and D weapons."

No. You don't.


How do you know? Just because you don't doesn't mean nobody else does.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 18:36:46


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I mean one can miss 7th edition but missing the worst and most eggregious examples of his unbalanced stuff?

And knowing how Xenomancers posts I'm pretty sure back in the day he would be complaining about how scatter bikes destroy all marines tanks and units without a sweat.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in be
Courageous Beastmaster





Ah 7th edition eldar, the most fluffy dex we ever got. Wraithknights deleting armies, Scatterbikes dealing death by a thousand cuts. OH GW balance team what warp dust didst thou taketh?




 
   
Made in us
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






also if i remember correctly bikes moved 12 inches, jet bikes moved an extra 12 and then eldar jet bikes could move 12 after shooting in the assault phase (i may be thinking 5th here) but you could zip up, move halfway up the board shoot then move out of line of sight again and not many units could actually ever catch you or even draw a bead to try and shoot them.

10000 points 7000
6000
5000
5000
2000
 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ah, the good old days of
"Yeah, my 50 point model just oneshotted your 250 point model without you even getting to roll a single dice to avoid it"
or
"My army is composed by a single unit which kills anything it wants and is completely invulnerable from any attack."

Indeed I miss those times soooo much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
also if i remember correctly bikes moved 12 inches, jet bikes moved an extra 12 and then eldar jet bikes could move 12 after shooting in the assault phase (i may be thinking 5th here) but you could zip up, move halfway up the board shoot then move out of line of sight again and not many units could actually ever catch you or even draw a bead to try and shoot them.


And worst of all, even with all that mobility and firepower (and being troops), they costed 17 points per model.
Oh, did we mention that they had inbuilt rr all hits?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 18:51:59


 
   
Made in us
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






Spoletta wrote:
Ah, the good old days of
"Yeah, my 50 point model just oneshotted your 250 point model without you even getting to roll a single dice to avoid it"
or
"My army is composed by a single unit which kills anything it wants and is completely invulnerable from any attack."

Indeed I miss those times soooo much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
also if i remember correctly bikes moved 12 inches, jet bikes moved an extra 12 and then eldar jet bikes could move 12 after shooting in the assault phase (i may be thinking 5th here) but you could zip up, move halfway up the board shoot then move out of line of sight again and not many units could actually ever catch you or even draw a bead to try and shoot them.


And worst of all, even with all that mobility and firepower (and being troops), they costed 17 points per model.
Oh, did we mention that they had inbuilt rr all hits?


wasn't it you rolled on the scatter lasers first and if you hit with even one then you got to reroll the more powerful shurikan cannons which got better ap on wounds of a 6? again though i have 5 editions in my heads plus kill teams so i could be wrong there

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5000
5000
2000
 
   
Made in nl
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Thanks for enlightening me on some 40k History. I must admit those do not sound very fun to me, even if they might be slightly better than some of the more egregious stunts you can pull these days.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Castozor wrote:
Care to explain to a newer player what these things were and what made them good compared to what we have now? I've heard rumors of OP scatterbikes and scary D-weapons but I never really understood what that meant.

A d weapon always wounded on a 2 - did d3 damage during a time when all weapons did 1 damage and on a 6 it did d6+6 wounds with no save allowed. Couldn't take FNP against D weapons ether (Nor against double str weapons) in those days. The "competitive community" hated the d weapon so much - that ITC actually made rules changes to nerf them...which is a joke - they still allowed invisibility in the game (you can only be hit on 6's to hit for a whole unit) and(endurance which gave a whole unit 4+ FNP's and ignore move penalties). D weapons were very strong but also very expensive.

Scatter bikes had 4 shots wounding most troops on 2's and AP was utterly useless because every unit was getting a 4++ save for being in cover basically and fast units could "jink" when they got shot to get a specials 4+ save too. Also with str 6 could wound tanks on a 5 or 6 to wound unless they had armor 13. So They had the volume to put 3-4 wounds on tanks and "hull point" them. Basically tanks had 3 wounds and no saves in that eddition.

Tanks were like...really bad in those days but at the same time some weapons couldn't hurt them. Monsters on the other hand were Amazing but had a T value and anything could hurt them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galas wrote:
I mean one can miss 7th edition but missing the worst and most eggregious examples of his unbalanced stuff?

And knowing how Xenomancers posts I'm pretty sure back in the day he would be complaining about how scatter bikes destroy all marines tanks and units without a sweat.
Are you kidding me? I was playing eldar and tau. Marines were pathetical bad in this edition.

I think your missing the point - this stuff was insanely OP for the time...we have moved way past that. You spend 1 CP you you remove a model/unit or make 45 saves...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/17 19:06:25


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Spoletta wrote:
...And worst of all, even with all that mobility and firepower (and being troops), they costed 17 points per model.
Oh, did we mention that they had inbuilt rr all hits?


17pts with shuriken catapults, 27pts with a scatter laser or shuriken cannon. The scatter laser had "if you hit with the scatter laser every other weapon fired from the unit re-rolls hits", which was put on it in 7th in an effort to make it a co-axial/guide-laser choice when put on a Falcon or a War Walker with another weapon on the same turret, but whoever wrote that rule forgot they'd put them in the Windrider kit too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
Ah, the good old days of
"Yeah, my 50 point model just oneshotted your 250 point model without you even getting to roll a single dice to avoid it"
or
"My army is composed by a single unit which kills anything it wants and is completely invulnerable from any attack."

Indeed I miss those times soooo much...


I don't get why people think getting to roll a save adds agency. I don't find the 50-pt models one-shotting 250pt models in 9th any less frustrating because someone says to me "Why are you complaining? You got to roll a save as part of the attack procedure!"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 19:11:04


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 AnomanderRake wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
...And worst of all, even with all that mobility and firepower (and being troops), they costed 17 points per model.
Oh, did we mention that they had inbuilt rr all hits?


17pts with shuriken catapults, 27pts with a scatter laser or shuriken cannon. The scatter laser had "if you hit with the scatter laser every other weapon fired from the unit re-rolls hits", which was put on it in 7th in an effort to make it a co-axial/guide-laser choice when put on a Falcon or a War Walker with another weapon on the same turret, but whoever wrote that rule forgot they'd put them in the Windrider kit too.
That rule never existed for "scatter bikes" as they were known. I think the rule disappeared after the CWE codex in 7th.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




Sedona, Arizona

 AnomanderRake wrote:

I don't get why people think getting to roll a save adds agency. I don't find the 50-pt models one-shotting 250pt models in 9th any less frustrating because someone says to me "Why are you complaining? You got to roll a save as part of the attack procedure!"


Rolling a save does add agency, or at least 'involves' the controlling player in the process (which is, arguably, agency). It's not much and it's not exactly rewarding, but it is generally more "fun" than just spending the whole turn being told your model(s) died and now you need to remove them.

Not really disagreeing with the rest of what you've got there, just indicating that the original intent for armor saves and how they operate is positive and surprisingly 'aware' so far as game design goes.

 welshhoppo wrote:

I like my Orks how I like my Emperor, dead.
 
   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

Then go back. No one is stopping you from playing older editions.
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Cobleskill

go ahead, make my day.

And I'll go back to using my 7th edition Tau Empire codex. With working markerlights, and working jump packs, and the ability of FSE to take Crisis Suits as troops. And no limits on the number of Commanders that I could field.

'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!' 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 carldooley wrote:
go ahead, make my day.

And I'll go back to using my 7th edition Tau Empire codex. With working markerlights, and working jump packs, and the ability of FSE to take Crisis Suits as troops. And no limits on the number of Commanders that I could field.

Like I said. Good Ole days.

Riptide win / + Drone net / + Stormsurge formation. The most fun you could have with tau. Not to mention...Crisis suits were really good cause they could hit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 19:55:32


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Xenomancers wrote:
Those were the days man - if they rolled a 6 you lost 1 model in a unit. Now days...you spend 1 Cp and you lose a whole unit.

Shoot at a unit of scatter bikes and they jink to get a 4+ save and hit on 6's the next turn and can't really hurt you. Now...you shoot at a unit of chaff infantry and they get 2+ saves.

Man this game totally blows now.
What chaff infantry gets 2+ saves?

The only one I can think of is Sisters of Battle in cover, who only MAYBE qualify as chaff. And if you have AP, then they don't get a 2+ anymore unless they're Valorous Heart.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in nl
[DCM]
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor






your mind

I miss vortex grenades, used rarely.
I miss flamer templates.
D weapons are essential.
Eldar jet Bike squadrons may include one scatter laser replacing its shuriken guns for every three models.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 20:10:21


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 JNAProductions wrote:
What chaff infantry gets 2+ saves?

The only one I can think of is Sisters of Battle in cover, who only MAYBE qualify as chaff. And if you have AP, then they don't get a 2+ anymore unless they're Valorous Heart.


Skitarii can do it a few ways.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Sterling191 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
What chaff infantry gets 2+ saves?

The only one I can think of is Sisters of Battle in cover, who only MAYBE qualify as chaff. And if you have AP, then they don't get a 2+ anymore unless they're Valorous Heart.


Skitarii can do it a few ways.
Ah, good point. I should know that.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

IIRC the laser lock rule for scatter lasers that let you re-roll was per model, not per unit, so did nothing for scatbikes. And I think it was only in the 6th ed codex.

   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

I don't miss Scatter Bikes or D-weapons. Not in the slightest.

I do, however, miss some of the stuff that was last seen in that edition - not least two entire armies.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





I do miss harlequins melee weapons having unique and interesting abilities. Now they are just same as power weapons with slightly different stats.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




I must admit I don’t miss the passive aggressive response my eldar got back then.

Someday GW will do craftworlds Eldar right, maybe a few more editions for them to work out some basics.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Xenomancers wrote:
 Galas wrote:
I mean one can miss 7th edition but missing the worst and most eggregious examples of his unbalanced stuff?

And knowing how Xenomancers posts I'm pretty sure back in the day he would be complaining about how scatter bikes destroy all marines tanks and units without a sweat.
Are you kidding me? I was playing eldar and tau. Marines were pathetical bad in this edition.

I think your missing the point - this stuff was insanely OP for the time...we have moved way past that. You spend 1 CP you you remove a model/unit or make 45 saves...

So, you just miss when your armies had "insanely OP rules"? That's what I'm getting from this. Scat Bikes and D-weapons were ok because you played Eldar and got to slap around armies without broken stuff like yours. "OP rules = Good for me, but bad for anyone else".
   
 
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