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Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




Sweden

Now, I don't care what the maths say. I don't care about the cold hard number.
I'm asking about your EXPERIENCE.

Now that the new codex has been out for a while, what has your experience been? Do you die faster? Are you more killy? Is the new codex stronger? Weaker? More boring?

In my experience, our vehicles dies SO much faster now, and I actually fear my opponent's psychic phase.
But we absolutely are more killy, and I think the new codex is more fun, even though I'd switch the -1D for our old 5+ FNP in a heartbeat!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/08 16:03:21


Nurgle protects. Kinda.
 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




In my experience they end up roughly the same, but more consistent than before. With the 5+ FNP, if you were having a good day, they could become almost unstoppable. You could have one game where they just felt 100% OP because nothing was dying. On the other hand, in your very next game (against the same opponent in the same mission), EVERYTHING could die very easily because your dice went cold and they felt like one of the worst armies in the game. With the current dex, you have a more predictable army that performs in a more stable manner. This has made them a little less fun for me personally, but is probably a good change over-all.

The current dex reminds me a lot of the current Mechanicus dex in that, despite the internet screaming that both are OP, they are really roughly the same power level as the old books (with DG getting a slight bump UP), and things have just been shifted to make more units use-able, and to make them feel more consistent as a whole.

While they did get better, I find them more boring to play now, so I've switched them out for my loyalists who are being run as Exorcists because it matched the color scheme they already had and I just have a lot of fun with the FnP roll.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Kansas, United States

I would agree with Tycho on most points. They're more predictable now, which lets me plan a little more for missions. Yeah, their swings are less extreme, which takes away some of the fun, but they're no longer just a brick of maybe-never-dying. They can bite back a bit, which is nice.

Death Guard - "The Rotmongers"
Chaos Space Marines - "The Sin-Eaters"
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Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




Sweden

Yeah, I agree. There's way less chances for that Hail Mary-rolls. If the marines gets shot with high AP or MW, it's bye bye.

I love the new psychic powers, and the WS/BS 3 for our vehicles is amzing!

Nurgle protects. Kinda.
 
   
Made in us
Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

I'm digging this codex, just needed to find a list that fits my playstyle.

While massed blightlords and deathshrouds seems like it's the way to go... that play style is really a war of attrition. As an old Ork "pedal to the metal" player, those lists doesn't work out for me.

I'm having some success with fast units buttressed with a decent shooting backline. Like this:
Morty
Chaos Lord
3x volkite contemptors
tallyman
5x spawns
3x myphilitic blight-haulers
2x plague burst crawler.

My MVP so far, surprisingly, has been my 5x spawns. Folks just forget how fast they move and how hard they hit. With the upgrade giving them +1 T and DR, they're tougher than expected.

6000
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4000

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Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




Sweden

 whembly wrote:
I'm digging this codex, just needed to find a list that fits my playstyle.

While massed blightlords and deathshrouds seems like it's the way to go... that play style is really a war of attrition. As an old Ork "pedal to the metal" player, those lists doesn't work out for me.

I'm having some success with fast units buttressed with a decent shooting backline. Like this:
Morty
Chaos Lord
3x volkite contemptors
tallyman
5x spawns
3x myphilitic blight-haulers
2x plague burst crawler.

My MVP so far, surprisingly, has been my 5x spawns. Folks just forget how fast they move and how hard they hit. With the upgrade giving them +1 T and DR, they're tougher than expected.


Looks pretty solid!

I have to say that my MVP unit is a fully kitted-out unit of CC marines. They kill basically anything that's not a vehicle.
Bloat Drones used to be my MVP due to soaking up so incredibly much dakka, but now they die pretty fast.

Nurgle protects. Kinda.
 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




 Kall3m0n wrote:
Now, I don't care what the maths say. I don't care about the cold hard number.
I'm asking about your EXPERIENCE.

Now that the new codex has been out for a while, what has your experience been? Do you die faster? Are you more killy? Is the new codex stronger? Weaker? More boring?

In my experience, our vehicles dies SO much faster now, and I actually fear my opponent's psychic phase.
But we absolutely are more killy, and I think the new codex is more fun, even though I'd switch the -1D for our old 5+ FNP in a heartbeat!


As a Necron and Blood Angels player, I find my friend's Plagueburst Crawlers to be nearly unkillable. Either through literal durability, range advantage or simply threat saturation.

Those are probably more challenges for those respective armies and specifically my lists however.
   
Made in ca
Excited Doom Diver






My buddy plays DeathGuard, and they are really annoying. The ignoring 1 damage is the worst to deal with, and I hate the mortal wounds, and reviving dead model strats for the Poxwalkers.

I haven't beat him yet.

Space Wolves 4k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
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Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






Columbus, Oh

My Death Guard experience.. is that the more I play the army, the more I cough, and wheeze.

Plus I leak mucus all over the table..


(what? legit answer to the vague thread title.. lol)

2+2=5 for sufficiently large values of 2.

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Omega Marines (vanilla Space Marine): W-1, L-6, T-2
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A.V.P.D.W.: W-0, L-2, T-0

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Made in de
Dakka Veteran



Bamberg / Erlangen

Sobie wrote:
As a Necron and Blood Angels player, I find my friend's Plagueburst Crawlers to be nearly unkillable. Either through literal durability, range advantage or simply threat saturation.

Those are probably more challenges for those respective armies and specifically my lists however.

Same here. I found myself leaning more towards shooty elements in my list to handle DG vehicles.

Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

Between our two Crusades i've played against them a fair amount (several DG players in each Crusade).
I've won & lost to them about equally. I find them to be a good, tough fight - but not "OMG! OP!".

I observed that they rely alot upon thier characters/sorcerers. At least the armies I faced did.... So I just took steps to counter that. My Deathmarks got alot of xp taking out DG characters/sorcerers....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/08 20:44:21


 
   
Made in gb
Sinister Chaos Marine




I've found them to generally be pleasantly resilient, but there are some matchups against opponents that take a lot of damage 1 weapons where you don't feel good about DR.

I really enjoy murdering things in combat with Deathshroud. Blightlords are shooty fun.

The daemon engines are bit of a miss for me. The PBC is resilient but sometimes not too exciting when shooting.

The MBHs are my favourite model but just feel very expensive for what they do.
   
Made in ca
Charing Cold One Knight





I find the new book to be very fun, especially compared to the old one. The old one felt like an intolerable slog whereas the new one is engaging and opens up for a host of interesting things.

Regarding vehicles dying too fast I've only felt that against certain armies such as Eradicator heavy marines or fusion harlequins. Otherwise my vehicles are staying their ground for ages and delivering punches.

Probably the most fun unit is a Contemptor with Volkites. The amount of explosive dakka with an upgraded tallyman you can get out of that dreadnought can be delightfully oppressive towards your opponent. Even then there are a lot of fun units that can be played around with such as harbinger Poxwalkers and so on. Currently wanting to build a Terminus Est list and try that out to see if I can run without any vehicles at all.

-Primary Armies -
Craftworlds | Dark Angels | Death Guard | Sisters of Battle | Chaos Knights | Flesh-Eater Courts | Idoneth Deepkin

- Secondary Armies -
Drukhari | Necrons || Tyranids | Daughters of Khaine | Blades of Khorne | Stormcast Eternals
 
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress





My friend has really lost a lot of the joy from playing his death guard and honestly I've lost much of the suspense.
The biggest kick to our games is his losing that FNP roll. It was a thing of legend that made our games real close and interesting and was a real feel good time for him when he'd make his notoriously good FNP roll.
Now, he's lost a lot of the interactivity he had with his army and it sucks to see his army crumble so easily now. Plague marines going down so easily to simple bolter fire while great for me, isn't for him.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Plague marines going down so easily to simple bolter fire while great for me, isn't for him.


Plague Marines are tougher against bolter fire than they were before. I mean, double the wounds might not have that wow-factor that passing a bunch of FNPs (or ordinary armor saves) does, but past confirmation bias there's no reason those Plague Marines should drop faster now.

   
Made in au
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend




Australia

I think it's a brilliant book and I've really enjoyed playing with it. There are a few things I'm not a fan of - DR working as it does makes little thematic sense, Deadly Pathogens are mostly overpriced garbage, and our secondaries aren't up to par with a lot of what we've seen in other books - but none of these factors have noticeably detracted from my experience.

Strengthwise, I'm happy with how we stand.

Emperor's Children
The Fourth Seal  
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Kall3m0n wrote:
Now, I don't care what the maths say. I don't care about the cold hard number.
I'm asking about your EXPERIENCE.

Now that the new codex has been out for a while, what has your experience been? Do you die faster? Are you more killy? Is the new codex stronger? Weaker? More boring?

In my experience, our vehicles dies SO much faster now, and I actually fear my opponent's psychic phase.
But we absolutely are more killy, and I think the new codex is more fun, even though I'd switch the -1D for our old 5+ FNP in a heartbeat!


Same impression here. Vehicles are now made of paper like they are for every other faction, but it feels like I can get away with running pretty much everything and the army actually feels like I'm playing the death guard from the books. You march across the board and you get vastly more deadly the closer you get.
Both for matched play and crusade the codex feels very much "right".

The only criticism I have is that daemon princes don't really have the oomph they should have, it feels like they can barely keep up with LoCs or Typus. In addition, they totally should have kept the stratagem to give DR to firstborn vehicles, it was the one thing that made them interesting to take.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
our secondaries aren't up to par with a lot of what we've seen in other books


Spread the sickness has been a guaranteed 9 VP in almost every game I've played, how is that not up to par?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/09 07:20:49


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in au
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend




Australia

 Jidmah wrote:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
our secondaries aren't up to par with a lot of what we've seen in other books


Spread the sickness has been a guaranteed 9 VP in almost every game I've played, how is that not up to par?


STS is by far the best one we have, and even that pales in comparison to what is available to some other books. Secondaries are indisputably a weakness for DG for a number of reasons. It's not the end of the world, thus the tone in my original post.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/09 09:02:06


Emperor's Children
The Fourth Seal  
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




I wish I had access to a secondary as good as Spreading the Sickness.

A reliable 9vp is overperforming for secondaries...

   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block





I'm generally very happy with the codex. Particularly its internal balance, with their only being a handful of truly bad units (cultists, firstborn vehicles, maybe the blightbringer). Everything else can compete in a semi competitive environment.

I like to run lists with a little bit of everything, some poxwalkers, some terminators, some demon engines and some plague marines. I still feel strong when I do this, so I count that as a win. I don't need to build a skew list just to make it all work.

As others have pointed out, the lack of defensive buffs and stratagems feel weird, but GW has definitely solved the problem we had in 8th edition of having no real punch.

The army has a real feel to it; we move slowly up the board absorbing the hurt and then when in short range/close combat unleash the hurt. I think this fits the fluff nicely, you just have to remember not to get too down hearted that it looks like you're losing at the end of turn 2.
   
Made in au
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend




Australia

Lammia wrote:
I wish I had access to a secondary as good as Spreading the Sickness.


You have access to a secondary that performs statistically better than STS, so congratulations?

Not sure why folks seem intent on taking what I said wildly out of context but hey, reading comprehension is hard.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/09 10:36:20


Emperor's Children
The Fourth Seal  
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




 Marshal Loss wrote:
Lammia wrote:
I wish I had access to a secondary as good as Spreading the Sickness.


You have access to a secondary that performs statistically better than STS, so congratulations?

Not sure why folks seem intent on taking what I said wildly out of context but hey, reading comprehension is hard.
No? Spreading the Sickness has a 50% selection rate and an adverage of 8.2 on those numbers. Everything better than that is a 'please nerf' Secondary

   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




Sweden

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
My friend has really lost a lot of the joy from playing his death guard and honestly I've lost much of the suspense.
The biggest kick to our games is his losing that FNP roll. It was a thing of legend that made our games real close and interesting and was a real feel good time for him when he'd make his notoriously good FNP roll.
Now, he's lost a lot of the interactivity he had with his army and it sucks to see his army crumble so easily now. Plague marines going down so easily to simple bolter fire while great for me, isn't for him.


I totally agree! And I would even extend to say that this whole game is becoming less and less random for each codex.They even removed "Don't press dat!"...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 catbarf wrote:
 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Plague marines going down so easily to simple bolter fire while great for me, isn't for him.


Plague Marines are tougher against bolter fire than they were before. I mean, double the wounds might not have that wow-factor that passing a bunch of FNPs (or ordinary armor saves) does, but past confirmation bias there's no reason those Plague Marines should drop faster now.


Yeah, you're mathematically correct, but this whole thread throws maths out the window and focuses on people's experiences.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/09 18:02:48


Nurgle protects. Kinda.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Kall3m0n wrote:
Yeah, you're mathematically correct, but this whole thread throws maths out the window and focuses on people's experiences.


I get that, but we're not talking about, like, abstract mathhammer scenarios that might not actually play out on the tabletop- this is really basic stuff. If someone feels their PMs are dying to bolters now it's worth getting into exactly why, because it simply isn't because a second wound is weaker than a 5+ FNP against D1.

Maybe there's something to it that's being misattributed to the loss of the FNP, but if it turns out to just be confirmation bias or sheer luck, then is that experience really useful to anyone else?

   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




Sweden

 catbarf wrote:
 Kall3m0n wrote:
Yeah, you're mathematically correct, but this whole thread throws maths out the window and focuses on people's experiences.


I get that, but we're not talking about, like, abstract mathhammer scenarios that might not actually play out on the tabletop- this is really basic stuff. If someone feels their PMs are dying to bolters now it's worth getting into exactly why, because it simply isn't because a second wound is weaker than a 5+ FNP against D1.

Maybe there's something to it that's being misattributed to the loss of the FNP, but if it turns out to just be confirmation bias or sheer luck, then is that experience really useful to anyone else?


Why does others' experience have to be of use, other than confirming others' experiences as well.
My Marines dies way faster now as well, but that's mostly due to mortal wounds and higher AP.
Sure, two wounds is stronger on paper, in a vacuum, but that's before you take into account everything else in the game.
3 MW is deterministically killing 1.5 new-codex-marines, but it's killing 0-3 old-codex-marines.

Nurgle protects. Kinda.
 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Kall3m0n wrote:
3 MW is deterministically killing 1.5 new-codex-marines, but it's killing 0-3 old-codex-marines.

This makes no sense. 3 MW were most likely to kill 2 DG in old system. So, MORE than in new. Add to that non-insignificant probability you will lose 3, small one you will lose 1 (so, as much as in new system), and tiny you will lose 0. How the hell tiny probability you will lose equal or less and big one you will lose way more = less durable?

Also, 5 mortal wounds wiped out old MSU DG squad pretty much guaranteed while it won't even kill half of new one. 5 hits with 2 damage weapon also pretty much wiped old squad out save for a very lucky roll while it again, fails to kill even half of new one with worst rolls possible. "Die way faster"? Wot?
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Yeah, can't follow that logic either. Plague marines are more durable than before in pretty much every way.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran



Bamberg / Erlangen

Keep in mind that OP was heavily arguing against the change to -1d and wanted to keep the old FnP.

I assume it is because the lucky moments, where it actually saved a PM from being removed are not happening anymore (and the constant "-1D" that always benefit the DG happen without player agency) do not generate the same experience, aka noteworthy moments within the game that get talked about afterwards.

Thus, the emphasis on experience, rather than statistics.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/11 08:14:06


Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Oh, -1 DMG is totally worse than FNP for all the vehicles, but those didn't get extra wounds like all the infantry did.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in nl
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





I like the new codex, on the tabletop the army feels like it should in the fluff. Plague Marines are actually a viable pick now in anything bar high competitive games. In fact most units are decent now with some exceptions like Predators who for some reason still don't get DR.
The only things that feel off are the new DR because I preferred the old 5+ FNP thematically and game play wise, the fact some units still don't get DR and the lack off defensive stratagems.
   
 
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