Switch Theme:

Space Marine Supremacy  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in ca
Adolescent Youth with Potential



Segmentum Tempestus

How similar are Space Marines between different Chapters? What I'm trying to de-construct here is: Are the base SMs default across the Imperium and then they add their Chapters special characterstics or fighting styles?

Let's take a Ultramarines which are highly disciplined, well rounded with no mutations vs a Minotaurs who are famed for ther vicious close combat fighting style and uncaring nature.

Also on a side note, which chapter do you think would have an advantage 1vs1 in the Imperium as loyalist.

*Perhaps Minotaurs who specialise in fighting other SMs.

Tactics vs. Strenght vs Ferociy?

Sigismund's last words to Abaddon, in Sanguine clarity: " You will die as your weakling father died. Soulless. Honourless. Weeping. Ashamed." 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






Nearly all Chapters will use the Codex Astartes as a baseline for their organisation or tactics, altering it here or there to suit their culture or tactics. The Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists are known as some of the most adherent Chapters of the Codex but also still apply its teachings in their own ways. The IF will apply the Codex to improve their defensive capabilites and the CF previously had to adapt the Codex to suit their severely depleted numbers.
The reason the Minotaurs are so effective is that they only use overwhelming force. For example during the Badab War, their entire Chapter deployed unlike the majority of Imperial forces who only deployed taskforces.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Yeah, it's heavily implied that the Minotaurs were the High Lords of Terra personal army of Marines, hence why they had such good equipment and such numbers

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/18 11:59:13


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, it's heavily implied that the Minotaurs were the High Lords of Terra personal army of Marines, hence why they had such good equipment and such numbers


The idea that the High Lords could agree on anything to that degree boggles the mind, and yet being being a collective of fascists, I can definitely see them doing a Wannsee and the Minotaurs being what got shat out of the other end.
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






Space Marines are noted for their freedom from the standard Imperial command structure. The premier Imperial military faction can realistically at any point refuse any orders given by the High Lords, which is something the High Lords cannot have. So they have their attack dogs to keep the other Chapters in line. Not that it works because the Minotaurs are banned from Ultramar by the order of Calgar and a huge chunk of the Ultramarines Successors flat out refuse to fight alongside the Minotaurs.
Hell, the whole cause of the Badab War was mortal bureaucrats interfering with Astartes autonomy and the High Lords being too afraid of political ramifications to properly "fund" adequate forces to patrol the Maelstrom Zone and keep the Warders from being stretched too thin. The entire Badab War could have been avoided if the Karthago Trade Lords hadn't been greedy and the High Lords had been more invested in the protection of the Imperium than their own political ambitions then maybe Huron wouldn't have become disillusioned and fallen to Chaos. As always the Imperium is its own worst enemy.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/18 15:09:12


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Catulle wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, it's heavily implied that the Minotaurs were the High Lords of Terra personal army of Marines, hence why they had such good equipment and such numbers


The idea that the High Lords could agree on anything to that degree boggles the mind, and yet being being a collective of fascists, I can definitely see them doing a Wannsee and the Minotaurs being what got shat out of the other end.


I imagine that the only thing the High Lords agree on is that the authority of the High Lords must not be questioned.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Hecaton wrote:
Catulle wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, it's heavily implied that the Minotaurs were the High Lords of Terra personal army of Marines, hence why they had such good equipment and such numbers


The idea that the High Lords could agree on anything to that degree boggles the mind, and yet being being a collective of fascists, I can definitely see them doing a Wannsee and the Minotaurs being what got shat out of the other end.


I imagine that the only thing the High Lords agree on is that the authority of the High Lords must not be questioned.


Well, quite. Peak Fash, innit?
   
Made in gb
Hard-Wired Sentinel Pilot





It's likely going to depend on what circumstances are in play realistically. Certain chapters have specific talents, and as such, if said circumstance is part of the scenario, advantage them.

Purely neutral scenario though?

I'd have two thoughts. One, assuming the Emperor knew what he was doing, during the Heresy we see the Space Wolves kept in reserve until another Legion needed 'Sanctioning'. That's quite a clue as to who you might call on in a loyalist chapter, vs loyalist chapter scenario.
Two, assuming we're including them among the choices here (there are valid arguments not to), the Grey Knights. They're clearly very specialised, but in fluff it's also massively apparent that in terms of training they're supposed to be Astartes +++.

In terms of the wider point, I suspect there's not much to choose between generic marines outside of the specialist training or focuses a Chapter might have. Like any conventional military, you'll get some more, and some less, exceptional individuals. That might be influenced in 40K by the merits of a recruiting world? (What would we see if an Astartes were recruited from Catachan, as opposed to Necromunda for example?)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/18 19:45:48


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 StrayIight wrote:
...during the Heresy we see the Space Wolves kept in reserve until another Legion needed 'Sanctioning'. That's quite a clue as to who you might call on in a loyalist chapter, vs loyalist chapter scenario.


Wear grey, use runes, enforce the leader's will...

The Wolves are the Waffen-SS.
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






IMO the GK shouldn't count in situations like "Which Chapter would win?" because they're so far removed from what most people consider a Chapter.
They're basically a Chapter of 1st Companies that are mostly Terminators that also all happen to be Psykers. They've executed Chapters before as well and tend to not have moral quandaries about "is this the right thing to do?".
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Gert wrote:
IMO the GK shouldn't count in situations like "Which Chapter would win?" because they're so far removed from what most people consider a Chapter.
They're basically a Chapter of 1st Companies that are mostly Terminators that also all happen to be Psykers. They've executed Chapters before as well and tend to not have moral quandaries about "is this the right thing to do?".

Yeah they're not really your typical chapter. They are more like the Deathwatch; a group of specialists gathered for a specific purpose, except even more esoteric and specialized.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






Catulle wrote:

Wear grey, use runes, enforce the leader's will...

The Wolves are the Waffen-SS.

Just no.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/18 19:52:22


 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Catulle wrote:
 StrayIight wrote:
...during the Heresy we see the Space Wolves kept in reserve until another Legion needed 'Sanctioning'. That's quite a clue as to who you might call on in a loyalist chapter, vs loyalist chapter scenario.


Wear grey, use runes, enforce the leader's will...

The Wolves are the Waffen-SS.

Not everything in the IoM is a reference to the 3rd reich. They take more inspirations from other things, you know.
It arguably takes greater inspiration from the Holy Roman Empire, albeit one that's excessively theocratic and brutal with some other elements of oppressive regimes thrown in.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/18 19:54:20


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Catulle wrote:
 StrayIight wrote:
...during the Heresy we see the Space Wolves kept in reserve until another Legion needed 'Sanctioning'. That's quite a clue as to who you might call on in a loyalist chapter, vs loyalist chapter scenario.


Wear grey, use runes, enforce the leader's will...

The Wolves are the Waffen-SS.

Not everything in the IoM is a reference to the 3rd reich. They take more inspirations from other things, you know.
It arguably takes greater inspiration from the Holy Roman Empire, albeit one that's excessively theocratic and brutal with some other elements of oppressive regimes thrown in.


For sure, but this one's a gimme.

Before the Horus Heresy stuff came out? Sure, it's up for grabs but after they're portrayed as the ultimate enforcers of the Emperor's will? Not so much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Imperium is a fascist state; and it's okay to collect little fascist armies (even when you lose, everyone wins!) - one of the best things about 40k is that everyone sucks, so it's a perpetua' scrabble for the bottom .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/18 20:00:36


 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






Catulle wrote:


For sure, but this one's a gimme.

Before the Horus Heresy stuff came out? Sure, it's up for grabs but after they're portrayed as the ultimate enforcers of the Emperor's will? Not so much.


The Imperium is a fascist state; and it's okay to collect little fascist armies (even when you lose, everyone wins!) - one of the best things about 40k is that everyone sucks, so it's a perpetua' scrabble for the bottom .

All this shows is you don't know jack about both the Space Wolves and the Waffen SS.

Space Wolves - Army of indoctrinated super soldiers with some of the best weapons and equipment known to man who also happen to savage warriors. Despite their savage appearance and battlefield tactics the Wolves are in fact not terrible and possess a deep sense of honour which is not reserved for Astartes alone. Mortal forces are often held in high regard by the Wolves. Wore grey armour during the Crusade and Heresy, changed to a blue-ish tint post-Heresy.

Waffen SS - Army of mostly foreign volunteers who were massive racists/anti-semites who were often not professional soldiers at all and really only existed to be terrorists. Wore as much grey as the regular Wehrmacht forces and even then tended to wear camo uniforms. Hated by literally everyone including the Wehrmacht.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/18 20:16:46


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:
Catulle wrote:


For sure, but this one's a gimme.

Before the Horus Heresy stuff came out? Sure, it's up for grabs but after they're portrayed as the ultimate enforcers of the Emperor's will? Not so much.


The Imperium is a fascist state; and it's okay to collect little fascist armies (even when you lose, everyone wins!) - one of the best things about 40k is that everyone sucks, so it's a perpetua' scrabble for the bottom .

All this shows is you don't know jack about both the Space Wolves and the Waffen SS.

Space Wolves - Army of indoctrinated super soldiers with some of the best weapons and equipment known to man who also happen to savage warriors. Despite their savage appearance and battlefield tactics the Wolves are in fact not terrible and possess a deep sense of honour which is not reserved for Astartes alone. Mortal forces are often held in high regard by the Wolves. Wore grey armour during the Crusade and Heresy, changed to a blue-ish tint post-Heresy.

Waffen SS - Army of mostly foreign volunteers who were massive racists/anti-semites who were often not professional soldiers at all and really only existed to be terrorists. Wore as much grey as the regular Wehrmacht forces and even then tended to wear camo uniforms. Hated by literally everyone including the Wehrmacht.


Mmm hmm.

Still Fash as feth, aren't they, however nice they may appear?

But please, explain away how these misunderstood heroes etc. etc. etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Oh, but we have HONOUR" is literally the rallying call of every fascist about to do a terrible thing, ever.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/18 21:03:28


 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






Doesn't make the Wolves the SS though does it?

Regardless it doesn't matter because the Wolves were only executioners during the Crusade era. Now they aren't and follow different tactics. The executioner role would fall to the Grey Knights for most cases.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Didn't the Romans and Medieval Europe do the same thing anyway? Send a military force to execute or arrest a traitor, who was usually protected by his own forces? Pretty sure most Roman Civil Wars involved that.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






I mean nations still do it now. Wasn't one lad that went after Bin-Laden it was like 20 US Marines.
For a HVT mission where you need a confirmed kill you send an execution force.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/18 21:40:58


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:
Doesn't make the Wolves the SS though does it?

Regardless it doesn't matter because the Wolves were only executioners during the Crusade era. Now they aren't and follow different tactics. The executioner role would fall to the Grey Knights for most cases.


In the sense that they're the Emperor's chosen murderbastards? Totally.

The wolves are *awful* - like the guys chosen to purge the other guys just like them who weren't as compliant.

(And that's okay - the Imperium is meant to be terrible)
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






You're still going with this. OK then.

The Wolves were the Emperors chosen instruments to deal with the deadliest enemies the Imperium faced like Enslavers and other cosmic horrors. They might have destroyed one of the Lost Legions but its not confirmed.

The Waffen SS murdered innocent civilians and committed heinous warcrimes because of their dedication to a disgusting racial ideology. They weren't chosen for any reason other than the Nazis were scared because the Wehrmacht officers weren't party ideologues and didn't obey the Party without question.

So the Wolves fought actual monsters and Daemons whereas the SS were the monsters and Daemons.
I'm very much aware the Imperium is a fascist state. It has literally no bearing on your bad analogy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/18 22:00:25


 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Yeah, it's a pretty forced analogy. I really don't see the connection.
Maybe the Inquisition would be a better fit? But they are already meant to be, well, the Inquisition. I doubt the writers had the SS on their minds when they come up with them.
I just don't think the Imperium has an equivalent to those.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/19 00:10:29


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

The waters were also muddied by the Rangdan Xenocides lore, where the Space Wolves are potrayed as a weapon the Emperor uses to threaten with, while the Dark Angels are used to employed to execute with the minimum of fuss.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/19 18:39:39


Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues
Cult of Veiled Malice

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in fr
Stalwart Tribune





 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, it's a pretty forced analogy. I really don't see the connection.
Maybe the Inquisition would be a better fit? But they are already meant to be, well, the Inquisition. I doubt the writers had the SS on their minds when they come up with them.
I just don't think the Imperium has an equivalent to those.
Pre-heresy Night Lords might be the closest thing if we really want to find an army that fits, but it's still a stretch.
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






I would suggest we don't find a fit at all and instead try to discuss the OP's questions.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:
You're still going with this. OK then.

The Wolves were the Emperors chosen instruments to deal with the deadliest enemies the Imperium faced like Enslavers and other cosmic horrors. They might have destroyed one of the Lost Legions but its not confirmed.

The Waffen SS murdered innocent civilians and committed heinous warcrimes because of their dedication to a disgusting racial ideology. They weren't chosen for any reason other than the Nazis were scared because the Wehrmacht officers weren't party ideologues and didn't obey the Party without question.

So the Wolves fought actual monsters and Daemons whereas the SS were the monsters and Daemons.
I'm very much aware the Imperium is a fascist state. It has literally no bearing on your bad analogy.


They also had crusade fleets which *checks* involved murdering innocent civilians along racial divides (Xenocide is a clear stand in for genocide). Fenris is the epitome of "foreign volunteers" i.e. a forceably colonised people producing bodies for the Imperial murder machine. Insofar as their role in the Heresy, yes, they were resented by the other Legions..

I would also encourage some caution regarding the clean Wehrmacht myth you appear (and knowing your record on other topics, I'm sure it's not deliberate) to give some credit to.

But you're right in that it's off topic and we should stop. I hope you don't begrudge me the right of reply, though.

Pals?

E: Speeling, grammur and auto corrupt.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/07/19 18:58:09


 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






Catulle wrote:
They also had crusade fleets which *checks* involved murdering innocent civilians along racial divides (Xenocide is a clear stand in for genocide).

Context is important though. The Nazis committed genocide because they believed they were superior to certain peoples, the Imperium commits Xenocide (and yes sometimes genocide) because those Xenos races are an actual military threat not a made-up cultural one.
The Imperium even had protectorates during the Crusade era as it was presented as an option for the Interex, a human civilisation mixed with Xenos, to join the Imperium. There are Xenos tolerated in the Imperium it was just that most had at the time of the Crusade already engaged in conflict with humanity.

Fenris is the epitome of "foreign volunteers" i.e. a forceably colonised people producing bodies for the Imperial murder machine.

That's not volunteers then, is it?

Insofar as their role in the Heresy, yes, they were resented by the other Legions.

No more so than anyone else was. I would even go as far to say that resentment between the Legions was just day-to-day business. Were the Wolves and Russ feared because of their previous actions? Yeah sure but again no more than Kurze and the Night Lords or Angron and the World Eaters.

I would also encourage some caution regarding the clean Wehrmacht myth you appear (and knowing your record on other topics, I'm sure it's not deliberate) to give some credit to.

Except I didn't even come close to repeating such nonsense. You said the Wolves were hated, I disagreed. The Waffen SS were hated by the regular army who saw them as a waste of equipment. The OKW tried to prevent them from getting the equipment they required in 1939 before WW2 even started. The creation and expansion of the Waffen SS was even one of the reasons why Von Stauffenberg and other Wehrmacht officers attempted Operation Valkyrie, as they saw more military decisions made by politicians like Hitler and Himmler than seasoned generals.

Watch "Valkyrie", it's very good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/19 19:22:17


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:
Catulle wrote:
They also had crusade fleets which *checks* involved murdering innocent civilians along racial divides (Xenocide is a clear stand in for genocide).

Context is important though. The Nazis committed genocide because they believed they were superior to certain peoples, the Imperium commits Xenocide (and yes sometimes genocide) because those Xenos races are an actual military threat not a made-up cultural one.[\quote]
Oh dear. Please don't tell me you're taking a space-fascist (within the fiction) on their word for what constitutes a military threat... you know better than that.

 Gert wrote:
The Imperium even had protectorates during the Crusade era as it was presented as an option for the Interex, a human civilisation mixed with Xenos, to join the Imperium. There are Xenos tolerated in the Imperium it was just that most had at the time of the Crusade already engaged in conflict with humanity.

*Slave* species, yes. Ask the Interex how that worked out... oh, wait...

 Gert wrote:
Fenris is the epitome of "foreign volunteers" i.e. a forceably colonised people producing bodies for the Imperial murder machine.

That's not volunteers then, is it?

I am a *long* way from believing the third reich practiced anything approaching ethical volunteerism.

 Gert wrote:
Insofar as their role in the Heresy, yes, they were resented by the other Legions.

No more so than anyone else was. I would even go as far to say that resentment between the Legions was just day-to-day business. Were the Wolves and Russ feared because of their previous actions? Yeah sure but again no more than Kurze and the Night Lords or Angron and the World Eaters.

The Night Lords and World Eaters were scorned by the other Legions, not feared enforcers of the Fuhrer's wrath. There's a narrative distinction there. From a civilian PoV, they're all awful... but that's rather the point, isn't it?

 Gert wrote:
I would also encourage some caution regarding the clean Wehrmacht myth you appear (and knowing your record on other topics, I'm sure it's not deliberate) to give some credit to.

Except I didn't even come close to repeating such nonsense. You said the Wolves were hated, I disagreed. The Waffen SS were hated by the regular army who saw them as a waste of equipment. The OKW tried to prevent them from getting the equipment they required in 1939 before WW2 even started. The creation and expansion of the Waffen SS was even one of the reasons why Von Stauffenberg and other Wehrmacht officers attempted Operation Valkyrie, as they saw more military decisions made by politicians like Hitler and Himmler than seasoned generals.

Watch "Valkyrie", it's very good.


In that degree I get you, and yet... see above for how the narrative constructs the Wolves as nordic-inspired fascist enforcers and think about how that plays given the rest of the context of the Imperium.

Valkyrie is... not bad. It's pretty soft on the Genman aristocracy and sails a bit close to the wind in terms of constructing history's maybe's into staunch opponents. Anthropoid is *excellent* though, having followed the operation's footsteps around Prague, can recommend.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have somehow shitted up the formatting right good, so no idea how and I'm going to avoid messing with it in case I feth things up worse.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/19 19:51:58


 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






Catulle wrote:
Oh dear. Please don't tell me you're taking a space-fascist (within the fiction) on their word for what constitutes a military threat... you know better than that.

No, I'm looking at the 8-foot tall brickhouse of green muscle and rage that is an Ork, or the spikey knife-eared sadists of the Drukhari, or the Enslavers or the Hrud or the Megarachnids.

I am a *long* way from believing the third reich practiced anything approaching ethical volunteerism.

The foreign SS groups weren't slaves or press-ganged like Ostbattalion's, they were local French, Belgian, Dutch, Danish, Norwegian, and non-ethnic Poles that were Nazis who volunteered to fight since they couldn't be recruited into regular army units. By the end of WW2, most SS divisions were made up of non-Germans.

The Night Lords and World Eaters were scorned by the other Legions, not feared enforcers of the Fuhrer's wrath. There's a narrative distinction there. From a civilian PoV, they're all awful... but that's rather the point, isn't it?

Any time Legion killing is mentioned outside of Tsons and Wolves books, it's not the Wolves the person is afraid of, it's just the Emperor. Sanguinius is afraid of what the Emperor will do if He finds out about the Red Thirst. Lorgar fears that the Emperor will cast him and the Word Bearers aside. Not the Wolves.

In that degree I get you, and yet... see above for how the narrative constructs the Wolves as nordic-inspired fascist enforcers and think about how that plays given the rest of the context of the Imperium.

The Nazis stole the Nordic runes. The Waffen SS were not inspired by Vikings, the Nazis just believed that Scandanavians were the closest thing to "Aryan" which was established in their ideology way before the SS came along.
Only specific parts of the Wolves history has them as the Emperor's executioners and they've been the Viking-Wolf Chapter for much longer.
Your analogy is still bad and nothing you have said has made it any better.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




I *suspect* you may be accidentally occluding the fascist part of the wolves' identity and giving them too much credit (like Fenrisians strive to be marines, because they've been indoctrinated like real-world fascists, the fash doesn't spring forth from the womb) - and the Wolves-as-enforcers is definitely a theme running through the Imperium Secundus chain, the Blood Angels bit in re Cygnus and the World Eaters backstory down to the face-off.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Background
Go to: