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Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

Tiberias wrote:

For example, yes. Or the exodite solution, or whatever cegorach does with his halequins (though this is not an option for all eldar most likely, since it's not that easy to become a harlequin) and most recently, the ynnari. The point being that there are actual in lore examples of alternatives. Considering the dark eldar have some of the most advanced tech in the entire galaxy, they could have very well worked together with their cousins in the last ten thousand years after the fall to come up with a solution. Hence why them feeding on suffering is not a cold hard necessity. It definitely wasn't at the beginning and it didn't have to be in the milennia that followed.


The Exodite solution? Not even the Asuryani consider that an option; it would be like telling people today that the solution to global warming is to return to a tribal, subsistence, hunter gatherer society.

How many does Cregorach save? A bare handful. There is no suggestion that he is able or willing to do any more than that, and I would imagine onlyn a tiny proportion of the Drukhari population would be capable of becoming Harlequins.

The Ynnari. "Remember those gods that failed you?....Ynnead is totes not like that. All you need to do to be saved is to commit suicide en masse, and this new god will most definitely resurrect you.....yeah.....kool aid is over there."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 09:11:41


Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues
Cult of Veiled Malice

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in at
Dakka Veteran




 harlokin wrote:
Tiberias wrote:

For example, yes. Or the exodite solution, or whatever cegorach does with his halequins (though this is not an option for all eldar most likely, since it's not that easy to become a harlequin) and most recently, the ynnari. The point being that there are actual in lore examples of alternatives. Considering the dark eldar have some of the most advanced tech in the entire galaxy, they could have very well worked together with their cousins in the last ten thousand years after the fall to come up with a solution. Hence why them feeding on suffering is not a cold hard necessity. It definitely wasn't at the beginning and it didn't have to be in the milennia that followed.


The Exodite solution? Not even the Asuryani consider that an option; it would be like telling people today that the solution to global warming is to return to a tribal, subsistence, hunter gatherer society.

How many does Cregorach save? A bare handful. There is no suggestion that he is able or willing to do any more than that, and I would imagine onlyn a tiny proportion of the Drukhari population would be capable of becoming Harlequins.

The Ynnari. "Remember those gods that failed you?....Ynnead is totes not like that. All you need to do to be saved is to commit suicide en masse, and this new god will most definitely resurrect you.....yeah.....kool aid is over there."



The point still stands.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

I don't get the fuss.

Sure, some Asuryani are killed from time to time, and that is regrettable. Fact is that no real people suffer to sustain the True Kin, just a few animals.

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues
Cult of Veiled Malice

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in at
Dakka Veteran




 harlokin wrote:
I don't get the fuss.

Sure, some Asuryani are killed from time to time, and that is regrettable. Fact is that no real people suffer to sustain the True Kin, just a few animals.


True

The fuss though is not about our conversation, but Hecaton insisting that dark eldar are more justified in their sadism than the imperium in an attempt to color the imperium as worse than the dark eldar, which is laughable.

   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






Just want to point out that arguing with Hecaton will do absolutely nothing for you.
They've brought up "the Imperium kills disabled kids" before and has yet to provide any evidence whatsoever that its true.
Personally I think applying the term "mutant" to a disabled child is pretty stupid and actually quite dangerous, especially when you have no evidence for it. But hey, that's Hecaton. Makes unfounded statements then gets people riled up so threads get locked and posts get deleted.
Do yourselves a favour and don't engage.
   
Made in eu
Dakka Veteran




 Gert wrote:
Just want to point out that arguing with Hecaton will do absolutely nothing for you.
They've brought up "the Imperium kills disabled kids" before and has yet to provide any evidence whatsoever that its true.
Personally I think applying the term "mutant" to a disabled child is pretty stupid and actually quite dangerous, especially when you have no evidence for it. But hey, that's Hecaton. Makes unfounded statements then gets people riled up so threads get locked and posts get deleted.
Do yourselves a favour and don't engage.


You are absolutely right, but after Hecaton flat out said everyone who likes the imperium is a closeted fascist and racist, he deserves to be called out on his crap and he deserves to be ridiculed.

I completely agree with you, but I can not keep my mouth shut if someone spews this much nonsense.
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






Chief I've been down this road, just report it a move on to people who want to have proper discussions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 harlokin wrote:

The Exodite solution? Not even the Asuryani consider that an option; it would be like telling people today that the solution to global warming is to return to a tribal, subsistence, hunter gatherer society.

Reject society, return to monke.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 10:17:17


 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

 Gert wrote:
Chief I've been down this road, just report it a move on to people who want to have proper discussions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 harlokin wrote:

The Exodite solution? Not even the Asuryani consider that an option; it would be like telling people today that the solution to global warming is to return to a tribal, subsistence, hunter gatherer society.

Reject society, return to monke.



Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues
Cult of Veiled Malice

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Gert wrote:
Chief I've been down this road, just report it a move on to people who want to have proper discussions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 harlokin wrote:

The Exodite solution? Not even the Asuryani consider that an option; it would be like telling people today that the solution to global warming is to return to a tribal, subsistence, hunter gatherer society.

Reject society, return to monke.

Why would Eldar want to be human though?

Monkeigh is one of 40k's best puns.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






Show me someone who says they prefer their life now to sitting in trees eating fruit and nuts with no other care in the world and I will show you a liar
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Gert wrote:
Show me someone who says they prefer their life now to sitting in trees eating fruit and nuts with no other care in the world and I will show you a liar

I cannot argue with that.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in fr
Stalwart Tribune





Between craftworlders, exodites, harlequins and ynnari, there are 4 different ways (that we know of) of protecting an eldar's soul from Slaanesh. The drukhari don't even really do that since they just extend their lives as long as possible and when they eventually die for good, they're screwed.
They also have ridiculously advanced technology, mad scientists with zero ethical concerns and all the time in the world. How much effort have they put into finding an actual solution to their soul problem compared to creating new exotic torture devices? We probably don't have an actual answer to that question, but I'm sure that if they wanted to, the drukhari could have come up with a better way of keeping their souls in the last 10 millenia than go: "I just have to stay alive forever. Nothing can go wrong!" How about artificial soulstones or a world spirit in Commorragh, for example?

Truth is, the drukhari just don't want to admit they have a problem.
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Hecaton wrote:
Arcanis161 wrote:
Obvious question here: what are you trying to imply about imperial players here, if the imperium is as fascist as you claim?


I'm saying that the reason why people glom on to the Imperium as the "justified' faction has a lot to do with how they're portrayed as European (mostly) and a lot of people interpret the Tau as Asian. Yes, racism.
And what about what Arcanis actually asked, which was about Imperial players in general? What about Imperial players who are well aware that the Imperium isn't justified, and is an awful regime?

Racists are racist, but are you claiming that everyone who plays an Imperial faction is?


Tiberias wrote:
As to your second point: I did not say the imperium was THE lesser evil, just that it is less evil than dark eldar and chaos, which it obviously is. We've had this discussion before in another thread and there you also kept implying that everyone who does not agree with you supports fascist ideology. I want you to once and for all clarify your stance on whether you believe that I or people in this thread just want to play "future nazis" to act out their fascist fantasies or whatever, based on the discussion in this thread. Because if you genuinely do believe that, we have nothing further to discuss.


I think that people who unironically like the Imperium are pro-fascism (or pro-something close to fascism), yeah.
Sure, but that's not all Imperium players, is it? People who like the Imperium *and are fully aware of it's awfulness* definitely are, but that's not all Imperium players.

So, would you care you clarify your stance on those people who are well aware of the Imperium's awfulness and *don't* support it?
This is a society that kills children born with cleft palettes instead of giving them medical care.
As pointed out now in several threads, no, they don't - at least, not institutionally.

Quit peddling your misinformation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tiennos wrote:
Between craftworlders, exodites, harlequins and ynnari, there are 4 different ways (that we know of) of protecting an eldar's soul from Slaanesh. The drukhari don't even really do that since they just extend their lives as long as possible and when they eventually die for good, they're screwed.
They also have ridiculously advanced technology, mad scientists with zero ethical concerns and all the time in the world. How much effort have they put into finding an actual solution to their soul problem compared to creating new exotic torture devices? We probably don't have an actual answer to that question, but I'm sure that if they wanted to, the drukhari could have come up with a better way of keeping their souls in the last 10 millenia than go: "I just have to stay alive forever. Nothing can go wrong!" How about artificial soulstones or a world spirit in Commorragh, for example?

Truth is, the drukhari just don't want to admit they have a problem.
Yeah, I'm agreed with that. The Drukhari are just as guilty of failing to improve their moral conduct and behaviour as the Imperium.

They're totally capable of being better, and not having to propagate a system of brutality (and even the oft-forgiven Orks are still explicitly slavers), but they refuse to be better.

This isn't defending the Imperium, it's just making clear that while the Imperium is awful, so is everyone else. Other people being awful still won't exonerate the Imperium.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/23 12:40:38



They/them

 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

I love how godwins law guy basically turned it up to 11

"WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE FICTIONAL CHILDREN!!!????"

Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

This isn't defending the Imperium, it's just making clear that while the Imperium is awful, so is everyone else. Other people being awful still won't exonerate the Imperium.


Really though I think its just an indication that the setting as originally created was never intended to have "good guys". Honestly back in the day I always felt that was one of the most interesting things about 40K, that it kept the kind of dystopic view as something like Judge Dread, maybe with the satire turned down a bit but still having some of that kind of punky character it to relative to Star Wars and all of the settings that followed it.

I think it was easier to sustain that position when the lore itself was a bit more limited and besides models it was actually illustrations that provided a lot of the character rather than novels. The more detail thats been added the closer the setting has tended to shift to Starwars like fantasy and thats quite hard to square with original intentions.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/23 15:31:05


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Hehe, I remember 3rd Ed, when 'Grimdark' was very much 150%, the universe wasn't filled in, and 'make your own story' was very much the direction, rather than '[named character] and frirnds'.

Imperium is horrible and awful. So is everyone else. I remember the introduction of the naive, optimistic tau, twenty odd years ago and they were initially set up as the 'closest thing to the good guys' and they didn't have the mind control or other sinister aspects that have since been introduced. They were very much presented as the contrast that showed how horrible everything else was.

I miss the first generation of tau. :(

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/23 17:10:40


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Tiennos wrote:
Between craftworlders, exodites, harlequins and ynnari, there are 4 different ways (that we know of) of protecting an eldar's soul from Slaanesh. The drukhari don't even really do that since they just extend their lives as long as possible and when they eventually die for good, they're screwed.
They also have ridiculously advanced technology, mad scientists with zero ethical concerns and all the time in the world. How much effort have they put into finding an actual solution to their soul problem compared to creating new exotic torture devices? We probably don't have an actual answer to that question, but I'm sure that if they wanted to, the drukhari could have come up with a better way of keeping their souls in the last 10 millenia than go: "I just have to stay alive forever. Nothing can go wrong!" How about artificial soulstones or a world spirit in Commorragh, for example?

Truth is, the drukhari just don't want to admit they have a problem.


Spoiler:
Really, all the ways the Eldar currently 'control' Slaanesh nomming on their souls are horrendously flawed. Drukhari are eventually eaten but until then, they keep their numbers up through massive clone vats with relatively naturally born occurring and have to keep getting riches to pay off haemonculus to bring them back from the dead, assuming a piece of their body can be recovered from whatever kills them.

That's on top of Eldar being naturally gifted in the warp and being a psyker is strictly banned in their society for the most part. Most likely they slaughter anyone in Commoragh that displays such ability. I would suspect that this would eventually lead to losing the ability to become psykers.

Exodites are essentially confined to their maiden worlds with their totems that protect them. No advanced tech either and at the mercy of every other space faring race. Given that this is 40k, this is just self inflicted extinction with extra steps.

Craftworld Eldar 'best' control Slaanesh over the long term, except it has created a rigid society where Eldar are prone to losing themselves to their path, or just flat out leaving the craftworlds to become corsairs. Because of their self-denialism, their birth rates are extremely low. This...normally wouldn't be a problem for a long lived race, but their Craftworlds are by no means secure. There's quite a few examples of Craftworlds being destroyed, their populations massacred, or the Craftworld themselves damaged leaving their population in precarious situations. The fact that they don't use cloning vats like the Dark Eldar indicate that either there's a flaw in that process (maybe it inhibits the psyker gene which is vital to Craftworld survival through warlocks/farseers and bonesingers) or they simply don't have the resources to support a larger population. Also, when Craftworld eldar die, they're just shoved into the Infinity Circuit where, once again, if damaged or destroyed, sends their souls straight into Slaanesh's maw.

As for Ynnari, yeah, that's been pretty well covered. The pragmatic solution would be to keep cloning dark eldar and feeding them to it until it attained godhood and kicked Slaanesh's ass. But that sounds like a horrible idea that would birth some sort of insane destruction god.


moreorless wrote:


Really though I think its just an indication that the setting as originally created was never intended to have "good guys". Honestly back in the day I always felt that was one of the most interesting things about 40K, that it kept the kind of dystopic view as something like Judge Dread, maybe with the satire turned down a bit but still having some of that kind of punky character it to relative to Star Wars and all of the settings that followed it.

I think it was easier to sustain that position when the lore itself was a bit more limited and besides models it was actually illustrations that provided a lot of the character rather than novels. The more detail thats been added the closer the setting has tended to shift to Starwars like fantasy and thats quite hard to square with original intentions.


Spoiler:
I mean, I still think the setting is supposed to be Grimdark with no 'good guys' with even the people we're supposed to empathize or identify with still being, by modern standards awful, xenophobic, fanatical monsters. It's just that they're placed in situations where those negative traits are minimized. When your opponents are psychic torture demons or world ending monsters seeking to wipe out all life in the universe, guys fighting on the front lines don't get a lot of time do things like war crime their prisoners or brutalize the civilian population because they weren't pious enough.


Deadnight wrote:
Hehe, I remember 3rd Ed, when 'Grimdark' was very much 150%, the universe wasn't filled in, and 'make your own story' was very much the direction, rather than '[named character] and frirnds'.

Imperium is horrible and awful. So is everyone else. I remember the introduction of the naive, optimistic tau, twenty odd years ago and they were initially set up as the 'closest thing to the good guys' and they didn't have the mind control or other sinister aspects that have since been introduced. They were very much presented as the contrast that showed how horrible everything else was.

I miss the first generation of tau. :(


Spoiler:
Unfortunately GW botched the introduction of the Tau. What they should have done was have the Tau struggled to 'do the right thing.' Every time they put the 'good' over practical (by in universe standards) actions, they should have either failed or achieved their objectives by drowning their enemies in Tau blood. And every time they did something practical or bloody, they should have been rewarded. Make people think, "Well, why don't you do that all the time!"

Instead, GW just gave them massive amounts of plot armor to the point where they were clearly GW's favorite for a brief time, maybe even over space marines at least in fluff. A massive Imperial Crusade essentially beaten back by an upstart xenos empire, help from the Eldar, no hardships that the rest of the galaxy experiences regularly, making friends, everything all peace and love. They really stood out and were made to feel like some sort of mary sue race shoved into a universe where, essentially, everyone loses constantly.


   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Can you explain how "good guys" steal other peoples worlds and force them into being vassals?

Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





 GoldenHorde wrote:
Can you explain how "good guys" steal other peoples worlds and force them into being vassals?


The idea of vassals sounds kinda good compared to:
Torn apart by laughing orks
Disintegrated by green lasers
Turned into living art works by the dark eldar
Eaten
Having your world glassed by the Imperium
Being shoved onto the set of Event Horizon by chaos


Don't think to hard about this stuff because it's all relative. And stuffed into a freight elevator to hell.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Veldrain wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Can you explain how "good guys" steal other peoples worlds and force them into being vassals?


Having your world glassed by the Imperium

The IoM is also likely to turn your world into what is effectively a vassal. Well, provided the population is human, that is.
The idea that the Imperium is exterminatus happy is something of a meme.
Still a bloody terrible outcome though. Either way you're part of an authoritarian and collectivist empire.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/07/24 07:43:42


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Utilizing Careful Highlighting




U.k

My take on the the dark eldar, having read the novels and played against them a lot is that they act all evil and sadistic, but really they are just pathetic wretches clinging to existence. Al, the cruel stuff they do because they enjoy it, they really do because they “need” to to survive. They are like drug addicts. Very tragic and very sad and very 40K. They have all they tech and if they got their heads out of their arses for a while they could likely come up with better solutions etc but don’t because they are so dependent on their behaviour. The idea that they are happy doing what they do is a facade they project to hide their addiction. Yeah it’s fun when they are high but the come down is always there.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

The IoM is also likely to turn your world into what is effectively a vassal. Well, provided the population is human, that is.
The idea that the Imperium is exterminatus happy is something of a meme.
Still a bloody terrible outcome though. Either way you're part of an authoritarian and collectivist empire.


Most worlds under Imperial rule actually seem to come out better for it. Or at the very least, not as worse, since many already seem to have some form of authoritarian leadership as it stands. As long as you pay your tithe and worship the Emperor and are willing to accept a few Imperial laws and agents, most worlds seem to be given pretty remarkable autonomy. Even the Ecclesiarchy is fairly generous, usually co-opting an existing deity and declaring it an aspect of the Emperor than trying to conform a single faith. Worship a forest spirit? He's the Emperor. Worship the sun? It's an incarnation of the Emperor's divine light! Worship a machine god who may or may not (until recently) be a slumbering C'tan? Emps again!

In return, your world is opened to galactic trade and technology and has a reasonable chance of receiving pretty significant protection. Contrary to popular belief, the Imperium doesn't always leave worlds to just die--they do make attempts to evacuate worlds under invasions, to stamp out rebellions, hunt down pirates, etc. All things a lone world would have to deal with themselves anyway.

The tithe also doesn't seem to be particularly brutal. It can be anything from crops to natural resources (even renewable resources like wood) to manufactured goods to even regiments for the 'guard.

It's not all puppies and rainbows--some worlds are lost through inept management. Others are indeed abandoned because sufficient forces to defend cannot be redeployed in time. Sometimes your world is burned as part of a larger plan like Kryptman's gambit against Leviathan. But being under Imperial rule doesn't immediately turn a world into a soul crushing dystopia.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Yeah the Imperium's bureaucracy is pretty terrible. It's like Brazil (the movie, not the country) except worse.

There are indeed a surprising number of denominations of the Imperial Cult. It's pretty much a reference to what Christian missionaries would do; take a local custom and spin it to be a part of the faith so that Christianity could better spread in that region.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






Yeah, the whole "taking your God and saying it's our God" isn't a good thing. It's manipulation as a tool of control.
   
Made in ca
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!




 Gert wrote:
Catulle wrote:


For sure, but this one's a gimme.

Before the Horus Heresy stuff came out? Sure, it's up for grabs but after they're portrayed as the ultimate enforcers of the Emperor's will? Not so much.


The Imperium is a fascist state; and it's okay to collect little fascist armies (even when you lose, everyone wins!) - one of the best things about 40k is that everyone sucks, so it's a perpetua' scrabble for the bottom .

All this shows is you don't know jack about both the Space Wolves and the Waffen SS.

Space Wolves - Army of indoctrinated super soldiers with some of the best weapons and equipment known to man who also happen to savage warriors. Despite their savage appearance and battlefield tactics the Wolves are in fact not terrible and possess a deep sense of honour which is not reserved for Astartes alone. Mortal forces are often held in high regard by the Wolves. Wore grey armour during the Crusade and Heresy, changed to a blue-ish tint post-Heresy.

Waffen SS - Army of mostly foreign volunteers who were massive racists/anti-semites who were often not professional soldiers at all and really only existed to be terrorists. Wore as much grey as the regular Wehrmacht forces and even then tended to wear camo uniforms. Hated by literally everyone including the Wehrmacht.


You're half right with the SS. You're describing late 1943/1944 to 1945 Waffen SS

Until 1943 or 44 the Waffen SS had very strict requirements. You even had to be over a certain height to join, so that eliminates competent people who aren't tall enough. Also, the SS (and tank crews) wore black, not grey. Grey was Wermacht. Until 1944 when just about every SS, panzergrenadier, and fallschrimjager init was outfitted with camo coats and whatnot.

So yeah the SS was actually an elite branch at first as they were supposed to be Hitler's personal bodyguard/army afterall, but because they are the Nazi party's personal military you dont ever hear about their accomplishments unlike with the Wermacht, but they did do some impressive things. There was also one SS division that was famous for not committing any warcrimes but I forget which one it is. Regardless, they started off as a crack fighting force.

For example the 2nd panzer corps which was composed of the 3 most famous Waffen SS divisions (1st, 2nd and 3rd SS panzergrenadier divisions) was responsible for establishing the southern flank at the battle of kursk after the Army units got bogged down on the first few day hours. The strongest division, the 3rd, went straight on to face the 52nd Guards Rifle Division along a 12 km stretch of the outer defensive belt full of heavy guns, bunkers and minefields while the 1st and second worked their way around, eventually enveloping and almost completely wiping out the Guards Rifles. The 2nd ss panzergrenadier division even battled, and in 4 hours, routed the Soviets 4th Guards Tank Army in the middle of the chaos. By the time the other two (Wermacht) panzer corps penetrated the belt it was basically already cleared.

The 2nd SS panzer Corp almost single handedly broke through their part of the first of three defense belts in less than 24 hours. 12kms of heavy defenses ment to slow down and weaken the Germans barely weakened the SS elements while the pincer of North army took nearly 2 days to penetrate their part of the belt. (They had more men and armour but there was also much more resistance.)

The SS divisions took extremely heavy losses at Kursk but were also invaluable. I'm not sure where I read this but I think it was wikipedia lol so check it out. I probably got a lot of the small details like division numbers wrong but it's all available online

123ply: Dataslate- 4/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/6+
Autopistol, Steel Extendo, Puma Hoodie
USRs: "Preferred Enemy: Xenos"
"Hatred: Xenos"
"Racist and Proud of it" - Gains fleshbane, rending, rage, counter-attack, and X2 strength and toughness when locked in combat with units not in the "Imperium of Man" faction.

Collection:
AM/IG - 122nd Terrax Guard: 2094/3000pts
Skitarii/Cult Mech: 1380/2000pts
Khorne Daemonkin - Host of the Nervous Knife: 1701/2000pts
Orks - Rampage Axez: 1753/2000pts 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Gert wrote:
Just want to point out that arguing with Hecaton will do absolutely nothing for you.
They've brought up "the Imperium kills disabled kids" before and has yet to provide any evidence whatsoever that its true.
Personally I think applying the term "mutant" to a disabled child is pretty stupid and actually quite dangerous, especially when you have no evidence for it. But hey, that's Hecaton. Makes unfounded statements then gets people riled up so threads get locked and posts get deleted.
Do yourselves a favour and don't engage.


Dude, I posted screenshots from the Rogue Trader rulebook, are you going to pretend they don't exist? Here they are again:





So you can see that "mutation" included people with developmental issues from environmental pollution (caused by the Imperium and AdMech's blatant disregard for the health of its citizens) *and* people with these mutations are overwhelmingly killed as a matter of course. Yes, this means they're killing babies with cleft palettes etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberias wrote:
I mean, holy fething gak, there is a lot to unpack here...

You can not be serious. So people who like the imperium as a faction are not only pro fascism, but also racist....got it.


There's a reason that people have glommed on to the Imperium as the "justified" faction, when it's the Tau who are the "we try to be good but it's a harsh fething galaxy so we gotta make tough choices" faction.


Tiberias wrote:
This might be the most idiotic thing I've ever read on this forum, and there have been some strong contenders. So if I unironically like the dark eldar as a faction, like I said in this very thread, I'm pro-sadism now?

But just to be sure, let me spell this out for you: unironically liking a faction does NOT mean you support that factions fictional world views. Are all dark eldar players suddenly closeted sadomasochistic sadists? Come on man...this is low, even for you.


If you like a faction "unironically," then yes, you *would* support that faction's fictional world views. If you enjoy the dark eldar as a faction without thinking they're laudable, then your appreciation for them is *ironic*, at least the way I'm using it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 06:24:40


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Hecaton wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Just want to point out that arguing with Hecaton will do absolutely nothing for you.
They've brought up "the Imperium kills disabled kids" before and has yet to provide any evidence whatsoever that its true.
Personally I think applying the term "mutant" to a disabled child is pretty stupid and actually quite dangerous, especially when you have no evidence for it. But hey, that's Hecaton. Makes unfounded statements then gets people riled up so threads get locked and posts get deleted.
Do yourselves a favour and don't engage.


Dude, I posted screenshots from the Rogue Trader rulebook, are you going to pretend they don't exist? Here they are again:





So you can see that "mutation" included people with developmental issues from environmental pollution (caused by the Imperium and AdMech's blatant disregard for the health of its citizens) *and* people with these mutations are overwhelmingly killed as a matter of course. Yes, this means they're killing babies with cleft palettes etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberias wrote:
I mean, holy fething gak, there is a lot to unpack here...

You can not be serious. So people who like the imperium as a faction are not only pro fascism, but also racist....got it.


There's a reason that people have glommed on to the Imperium as the "justified" faction, when it's the Tau who are the "we try to be good but it's a harsh fething galaxy so we gotta make tough choices" faction.


Tiberias wrote:
This might be the most idiotic thing I've ever read on this forum, and there have been some strong contenders. So if I unironically like the dark eldar as a faction, like I said in this very thread, I'm pro-sadism now?

But just to be sure, let me spell this out for you: unironically liking a faction does NOT mean you support that factions fictional world views. Are all dark eldar players suddenly closeted sadomasochistic sadists? Come on man...this is low, even for you.


If you like a faction "unironically," then yes, you *would* support that faction's fictional world views. If you enjoy the dark eldar as a faction without thinking they're laudable, then your appreciation for them is *ironic*, at least the way I'm using it.


That;s not true, they just tell that to the parents

Where do you think all the CHERUBS come from


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Imagine we put Godwin's law into 40k and made him a statesman......

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/25 06:58:47


Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
Made in fr
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on the forum. Obviously

Hecaton wrote:


If you like a faction "unironically," then yes, you *would* support that faction's fictional world views. If you enjoy the dark eldar as a faction without thinking they're laudable, then your appreciation for them is *ironic*, at least the way I'm using it.

So since I'm a necron player, I want all life to die unless I don't actually like them and only collect them ironically?
I take it then that Tau fans are also into rigid caste systems, imperialism and authoritarianism? Tyranid fans are into vore?
You know that most people don't do things ironically, right? That's something that insincere snobs do.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/25 10:40:30


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in eu
Dakka Veteran




Hecaton wrote:

If you like a faction "unironically," then yes, you *would* support that faction's fictional world views. If you enjoy the dark eldar as a faction without thinking they're laudable, then your appreciation for them is *ironic*, at least the way I'm using it.


If you're a troll, kudos. You got everyone.

If not, get help.

I feel bad for not having contributed to OPs question, so here it goes:

As far as I understand it, space marines definitely don't start at a default and then go from there adapting to their chapters quirks and tactics. Space marines can have some pretty extreme outliers, depending on how an aspirant reacts to the geneseed. Take Tyberios the red wake for example, who is almost a walking dreadnought or Asterion Moloc from the Minotaurs, who is definitely not a standard chapter master (my fantheory is still that Moloc is some sort of Thunder Warrior/Space Marine splicing experiment by the high lords à la the Mountain from GoT)

I think the geneseed itself to a certain extent shapes what propensity a chapter has. The space wolves ferocity is largely due to their geneseed.

As for supremacy, I think you can only put one chapter above another in certain specific ​aspects: the space wolves/blood angels have a higher propensity and specialisation towards close quarters combat than the ultramarines. So generally they will excel more in that area, but that does not mean all Ultramarines suck in melee. As I said space marines can have pretty big outliers, for example in the horus heresy novels an ultramarines captain takes apart kharn in a 1vs1 fight and would have probably killed him....but then Angron stepped in. Another example here is the imperial fists who are generally not as melee focused as the wolves, but they had among them the deadliest space marines duelist ever in Sigismund. Who again is an extreme outlier.
So each chapter has it's certain strengths and weaknesses, but certain individuals among those chapters can step outside those weaknesses.

As for space marine chapter vs space marine chapter, I'd give it to the minotaurs. Simply because they have the backing of the high lords, have some of the best toys because of that and they have experience doing it (Badab War).
The Dark Angels are also a strong contender to be able to take on another chapter, because they have some extremely potent dark age of technology weapons that rarely any other chapter has access to, and they are quite numerous I believe when you count their successor chapters, who are all loyal to Azrael.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 12:08:39


 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

So since I'm a necron player, I want all life to die unless I don't actually like them and only collect them ironically?

You don't want all sentient life to die? Very disappointed in you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 12:28:58


 
   
 
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